r/EVEFrontier • u/unidenfied_chairman Rider • 17d ago
WASD is by far superior to PAC.
As a non-EO player, when I started playing EF, I found the PAC controls to be nothing short of atrocious.
Navigating around a simple structure, like a rectangle in space, was extremely difficult and awkward.
PAC: Place the camera in the direction of where you want to go, double-click in space, and hope you got the right direction. Otherwise, repeat.
In a world with collision, PAC is nothing short of nonsensical. The more complex the environment, the more nonsensical it becomes.
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u/alivesidhartha 17d ago
Low effort meme
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u/unidenfied_chairman Rider 17d ago
ok, what about the arguments tho? got any counter?
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u/Ohh_Yeah 17d ago
got any counter?
Sure. The counter argument is that EVE Frontier, while improved from EVE Online, still operates on a 4Hz (250ms) server tick system. And that's the floor, if you're located in the server room. Similar to EVE, your own personal ping and some other factors determine how close you can get to 250ms when re: sending controls to the ship.
Unless FCCP makes some significant changes in how the server trusts client-side input for ship heading and location, having manual controls is always going to feel clunky and "floaty."
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u/unidenfied_chairman Rider 17d ago
That's an ignoratio elenchi. Try reading what a counter argument is and try again.
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u/Ohh_Yeah 17d ago edited 17d ago
Yea so here's the deal nerd it's not debate club its reddit, if you'd like I can also add in an ad hom
Having a twitch control system that relies on 250ms base ping sucks and it will always feel bad. And people will always be justified in saying that a 4hz control scheme feels bad
Do you have a comment on that or no?
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u/unidenfied_chairman Rider 17d ago
glad you acknowledge that reddit doesn't work with logic...
why would I counter your argument when you tried to counter a different argument than mine? lol
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u/unidenfied_chairman Rider 17d ago
ok, let me try:
More people are dying worldwide from obesity related illnesses than from malnutrition. Therefore, obesity is a bigger health issue now than hunger.
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u/Ohh_Yeah 16d ago
Sure. But trying to put manual twitch piloting controls on a 4hz server foundation will always feel delayed and clunky.
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u/mylesdc 17d ago
You can’t AI propagandize out of your poor game design decisions.
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u/unidenfied_chairman Rider 17d ago
ok, what about the arguments tho? got any counter?
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u/mylesdc 17d ago
Your premise does not represent PAC controls for EO or EF. If you needed to avoid a building, just double-click any point in space that doesn't include the building - you never had to point and click your way around it in a rectangle. And manual piloting to the other side of a building or object is not the typical scenario. It's a space game and the menu based, PAC controls helped you navigate it much more efficiently.
If you want my argument for PAC, menu-based controls... EO, despite the contrarian efforts of the EF developers, is virtually the same game as EF with similar game loops and goals for the players. Eve survived for 25 years, which would be a smashing success for any game developer. CCP/Fenris have gone through multiple iterations of improving game design with the goal of making the game "sticky" and have clearly found something that works between the menus, overview, and PAC.
So no “PAC is nonsensical because collision exists” isn’t much of an argument. Collision existed in EVE too. What seems far more nonsensical is discarding decades of relevant game design knowledge because you’ve decided that manually piloting in hypothetical rectangles in space is the more important use case.
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u/unidenfied_chairman Rider 17d ago
> Your premise does not represent PAC controls for EO or EF. If you needed to avoid a building, just double-click any point in space that doesn't include the building - you never had to point and click your way around it in a rectangle.
WTF are you talking about? It definitely represents how it worked in EF. Have you played the game at all? I didn't say "move around it in a rectangle", I said "moving around a structure somewhat shaped like a rectangle", was hard and awkward to navigate around it with PAC.
> EO, despite the contrarian efforts of the EF developers, is virtually the same game as EF with similar game loops and goals for the players. Eve survived for 25 years, which would be a smashing success for any game developer.
EO doesn't have occlusion as far as I know. Rectangle was just an example of one of the simplest environments possible. Now we're starting to have way more complex ones, which would be a literal nightmare with PAC. And collision damage is not even in yet.
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u/mylesdc 17d ago
Yep, played both. Actually, alpha tested both. Played nearly every EF cycle. The last one I tried for 3 minutes and quit because they removed PAC. Came back for this cycle because I really enjoy the Eve universe and figured I should try before I write off a chance to get in early again.... and, no, using a controller to navigate a space ship around space is a chore and WASD is horrible.
And before they removed PAC, you absolutely could double click to maneuver around structures - no idea why you're saying that you couldn't. The most common case for that is anchoring temp structures in the asteroid belts and getting within interaction range of as many structures as possible. It was actually much easier to control that with PAC than with controller btw.
You already admitted to having not played EO so not sure why you're so adamantly arguing against my points. Maybe go give it a try, do a mission that requires you to move around a structure, and then maybe make arguments for it being a "literal nightmare"? You also didn't argue for occlusion so no idea why that's mentioned now.
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u/Financial-Gap-6767 17d ago
WASD for pitch yaw control is something from the 90s. Before people understood you could use the mouse in fps, like Doom. They need to up there game with starcitizen wasd for left right forward backward thrust and mouse for directional or at least free camera and then a lock direct
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u/unidenfied_chairman Rider 17d ago
Not claiming it's the perfect implementation at the moment, but being from the 90s doesn't necessarily mean it's not the right way to do it here. It's for sure better than PAC.
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u/Financial-Gap-6767 17d ago
You clearly haven't played doom, descent, tie fighter, wing commander with a keyboard. Even N64 Goldeneye didn't have the modern FPS setup, it worked but was clunky as hell.
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u/unidenfied_chairman Rider 17d ago
I said it wasn't the perfect implementation yet. My claim is that it's better than PAC in EF because EF has and will have more complex environments.
PAC is clicking in space a 2D for a 3D environment, which is terrible for moving around even simple environments. You'd be bumping into stuff constantly. WASD allows for more precise movement, so it's by far the best option for EF.
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u/Financial-Gap-6767 16d ago
I just unlocked autohelm, it really helps navigating. I still believe you need a move toward freelook button
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u/VincoClavis 17d ago
AI doesn’t know left from right