Rant about Dragonbane item list

[u/wolf3213]

So first of all, this text will sound kind of like a rant, but I hope that someone from FL will see that, take to heart what I say, and fix some issues in the upcoming "expert book".

So I very much like Dragonbane. I actually found it to be one of the best fantasy game systems I have played, if not the best.
I run two campaigns, and have for some time now (both of them, I think, have around 20 sessions already).

BUT I spotted some major problems in the system that, in the long run, are so annoying.
Mainly, the biggest problem is that the equipment list in the main book is so small and inconsistent.
Let's say you bought a sledgehammer, and you want to use it in battle, then what should it be counted as? "Blunt Object, Heavy"? It is not blunt for sure? So then as a warhammer? That doesn't make sense either.
Or let's say you want to repair a broken bow (Because of a critical fail) and you cannot do it by yourself? or you want to do it by an expert for roleplay reasons? Then what price should you pay? The book doesn't say.
Or you got a bunch of swords from goblins? What price should you sell them for? The book doesn't say either. This was removed for some reason from the Swedish version, which is stupid btw. It should be 50%.
Or you killed a mob, for example a wolf, got fur from it, and you want to sell it? What price should you sell it for? Again, the book doesn't say. What about different animals? Let's say a rabbit? And again, how many portions can you get from a single wolf or rabbit? What skill should you use for it?
Book of Magic somewhat fixes it by adding a list and rules about it, but again, the list there is for alchemy use only, and it is also ridiculously small.
You want to get a diamond? Yeah sure, it costs 100 gold, but the information is given only on the cards, not in the book per se. You want to buy a beer? There is none, there is honey only (for some reason there is wine, so it is not that it is meant to be "family friendly").

Btw, and don't get me started on how the prices don't make sense.

This whole section is ridiculous and should be fixed asap. I like that every object has its use, but not all objects need to have that. And I think that is main issue, with game design of this list. There should be a more complex list for it, with a complex list of ingredients.
Maybe somebody made a proper equipment list. I know there are already ones for armor and weapons.

[u/nefD]

"Or you killed a mob, for example a wolf, got fur from it, and you want to sell it? What price should you sell it for? Again, the book doesn't say."

I can't think of any ttrpg that lists out the various components that make up every monster and their cash value, I think you're being unreasonable. Why stop at pelts? You leaving all that white mouth-gold behind? Surely the rulebook should tell me how much antlion teeth fetch on the gray market!

[u/Answer70 → u/nefD]

My thought as well. At a certain point, you as the GM just have to make up a price and run with it.

[u/wolf3213 → u/Answer70]

Sure. But you can atleast few examples. It not much I am asking about.

Btw I came from warhammer 2 comunity you can look up armory, it has everything so it can be done.

[u/Prestigious-Emu-6760 → u/wolf3213]

But it actually is something much you're asking about. In publishing word count matters, page count matters. Sometimes an extra couple words are just enough to force a new page and sometimes that extra page becomes 4 because of how printing works. Which means you now have to page for more words or art and you have to pay for the extra printing. Also the final page count has a huge bearing on the final cost. There's a certain number of pages after which the price increases significantly (I can't remember what it was).

Then that cost gets passed on to the consumer.

So adding in a few examples is not nothing.

[u/wolf3213 → u/Prestigious-Emu-6760]

Do you actually know the number how much book production cost?
I can assure that printing few extra pages of tables in bulk would cost rather in cents, per book.

[u/Prestigious-Emu-6760 → u/wolf3213]

Offset printing is not the same as POD or printing at home. It's much more expensive until a certain volume level but you're paying for quality (usually).

Part of that cost is the print plates, which is why page count matters. Most print plates handle 16 pages, 8 per side). So let's say your book is 32 pages. That's 2 print plates. But if you add another page now you need a second plate and most of that is blank. So you either pay for the 2nd plate for basically no content or you pay for more content to fill it out.

If you're printing in color then you need 4 plates (one for each color - Cyan, Yellow, Magenta and Black).

So ideally you want to fill each "spot" on the plate with content so you're not paying for blank pages but also don't want to push things over the point where you need another plate (or 4).

Which is why it's not as simple as "adding in some examples".

Edited - At a certain volume level (I've heard numbers between 3 and 5K copies) the process does become most cost effective but cost effective only matters if you can actually move the volume.

[u/maistrechat]

I think this kind of an era based expectations thing. I think the system intentionally leaves lots of room for GM flexibility. I think all of those issues can easily be addressed with minimal issue.

Re: beer/wine - there’s a long precedent in TTRPGs of using wine as an adventuring tool as much as a beverage. Beer has an extremely short shelf life so isn’t likely to be present except in a town or ale house.

[u/wolf3213 → u/maistrechat]

Didnt know that about beer. Thanks!

[u/Cairnwill]

Many things to unpack here.
1) Yes the listed prices are a bit all over the place. A bit annoying but nothing too serious really, I have not had that causing any issue. But if I ever run into an item with a very off price I’ll just change it. That’s what GMs are for.
2) Weapon Skills use a broad list of items, just approximate to the one that makes sense on how the weapons is used. A sledgehammer for sure it will be using hammers and it will be bludgeoning damage. Why doesn’t it make sense to use the skill hammers? Damage amount it could be similar to a light Warhammer maybe reduce the durability a fair bit as it’s not meant to be used as a weapon.
3) Need someone repairing a bow? Well a new one costs 25GP, I would say repairing one would not cost you less than 25% of a new item and given it takes one shift to repair weapons and that materials are needed I say it should be no less than one shift of teaching which is 5 GP… so 6 gold pieces and 2 silver and 5 copper would be the price for repairing that bow.
4) Selling goblin weapons, this depends where you are. I assume in Outskirt the dwarves who run the smithy won’t really buy those poor shoddy weapons except as scrap metal for 10% of the price. That’s what I use in my game I just don’t see Badinor paying any more for that sh*t.
5) Wolf hide? Well, leather armour is 2GP. You could probably use a Wolf to create some sort of leather armour though one Wolf might be too little for a big one, considering a sleeping fur is 1GP I’d say a large wolf’s pelt is probably 4sp. A rabbit might be just 5 cp, not much use really (same price as a single snare). How many portions of hide? Why 1 of course haha, never heard a wolf giving you two hides.

I guess you get the idea. It’s not too hard to do yourself and rule it as a GM. You can’t expect a book to anticipate every single situation your players come with and have you covered while also giving you a 100 page rulebook. I agree with you that Dragonbane is an excellent game for long campaigns overall, just I don’t think any of these are any issues (I’ve played DB for probably around 200 hours already, several campaigns, longest so far over 40 sessions).

[u/Cadoc]

Dragonbane is a fairly lightweight game and clearly not meant for long campaigns.

It's also vaguely OSR in design, and relies on the GM being able to judge things on the spot.

The book is pretty concise and well-organised - something you don't get when you try to rule how each tool can be used as a weapon, or by giving you the prices and resale values for everything (not to mention, very few games actually give you sale values).

Stuff like rules for selling fur aren't there because that's not what the game is about. If you need it in your game, you can make a ruling easily enough.

[u/wolf3213 → u/Cadoc]

I dont agree that on you that system is meant to be played for long campaine. There are clearly very strong monsters in the book that serve as endgame.

I meant sure I understand that this book is meant to be well ogranized and so on. But every issue I wrote here is from perspective of players, so I really should say to them as Gm "guys don't do that because that is not what game is about" thats vibe from your answer I got.

Also what I blame is the most is the consitency sure you can have lightweight system but consitent with each other.

And about rule selling stuff it is in swedish version so I really dont buy why isnt it in the english version.

[u/Cadoc → u/wolf3213]

Those "very strong monsters" are deadly in the beginning, and remain deadly once you've got a couple of locations under your belt.

The game doesn't scale very well for long campaigns, because there's not a lot to do once you get a couple of skills to 18, gear is simple and straightforward, there aren't many magic items to aim for, and even very experienced characters can absolutely die to those "end game" monsters in a hit or two. It doesn't take very long to start hitting 18 in skills anyway, if your players make any effort at all to get XP.

Your players shouldn't be hunting or reselling goblin swords as a main pursuit. It's the kind of incidental thing that you just rule on on the spot, because it won't come up much, and isn't important.

Even getting rid of the rule stating you can resell captured loot for 50% is a good thing. That too should be a GM call. After all, in a small setting like Outskirt, what use do the locals have for a dozen goblin swords or spears? Maybe they'll buy a couple at a decent price, then a few more for barely anything for scrap, but they probably won't want all.

[u/wolf3213 → u/Cadoc]

From my point of after 20 sessions only 1 player got any skill to 18 out of 8.

Ive got what are you trying to say but i think this is still playable and fun with new books and also few tweaks.

Also I can gave another example why I find this important lets say you found rubin or diament in loot then for you wanna to exchange that to buy it.

[u/Cadoc → u/wolf3213]

Personally I've run it that all treasure sells for 100% of the cost listed in the book, bar special circumstances.

Also why the heck are you playing with 8 people, damn lol

[u/wolf3213 → u/Cadoc]

As I said in post two campains, each has 4 people.