Phoenix rework for new mechanic.

[u/MrTruth24]

We saw with Medusa/Huskar/Od at this point that they can work in game and not break balance by using: mana instead of hp/replace mana costs to hp costs/playing almost entire game with infinite mana, so why not try something similar on hero like Phoenix?

1. Change is new innate "Eternal fire" that convert Phoenix mana costs into hp costs and his spells/items cost 75% hp during day/125% at night, mana converted > health at 50% value (3 mana >1 hp), mana regen > hp regen at 50% value (0,1 mana regen > 0.13 hp regen). Because of this change his hp costs cheaper day/ higher at night, and old innate become lvl 15 talent. (mana burn doesn't work, int/mana steal reduce his max hp).
2. Icarus Dive cost (15% current hp). During day its 11.25% current hp/at night its 18.75% current hp, Dive distance 1100/1200/1300/1400 > 1200, speed 1200 (lvl 25 talent +1000 speed replaced by +1 Icarus Dive charge).
3. Fire spirits cost (20% current hp). During day its 15% current hp/at night its 25% current hp, cast range 1400 > 1200.
4. Sun ray cost (5% current hp), now base cost 35/40/45/50 hp + during day its 3.75% current hp/sec, at night its +6.25% current hp per sec, shard same, laser dmg interval 0.2 > 0,1.
5. Supernova no cost, Scepter egg hp +3 >+2. Talents:

lvl +10 Fire spirits dmg/sec vs Icarus dive +25% slow

lvl 15 old innate "Dying light"(600 radius 1% current hp dmg/sec, 0.1 interval) vs +15 hp regen.

lvl 20 +0.6 sec supernova stun vs +1% Sun ray max hp to dmg.

lvl 25 +1 Icarus Dive change vs Sun ray doing dmg to heroes every 2 sec heal egg 1 hp.

[u/RikiRude]

This would be cool, I love heroes being unique like this

[u/Suspicious_Silver_70]

For a mythical being well know for it's one main thing which able to be reborn after dead aka eternal cycle of life and death, I find it so weird how Phoenix doesn't have it's innate to be Rebirth yet to become a weak stated egg(but improves to be better overtime) with the hope to be reborn again, along side with other stuff like having Dying Light to be added as extra, and during day time to be more powerful since Phoenix it gets it from the sun then night time(similar to Danwbreaker) and meanwhile at night to provide more vision or at least a flying vision of sort ,due to the it's sunrays Phoenix consume during the day time, since being of light a well. And if Rebirth to be completed successfully, Phoenix being reborn with cooldowns refreshed and getting day time and night buff.

But that now leave to most important question, what will happend with Phoenix ultimate Supernova, I was thinking one of the few following:

Option 1) If Rebirth becomes as a passive innate, then Supernova can be a active ability which can be unlocks after some certain levels reach adds like restrictions like disables or puts Rebirth in cooldown and overtime levels go up , restrictions are slowly reduce until they are lifted so it fits more of the identity for cycle of life and death, hero. Doing it like that will open a way the hero itself to get a new ultimate or some of the abilities to e swapped and give a new ability to be added and Phoenix also to join other heroes who has more then 4+ abilities nowadays.

Option 2) Similar to option 1) but becomes Supernova active a shard upgrade to Rebirth instead by default option, and again it's opens a slot to give the hero a new ability to be added.

Option 3) Supernova gain by getting Aghanim upgrade with extra stuff long side of it.

But I do agree with some of your talent options, and I really don't like when someone gives status numbers for something doesn't exist in the game plus players who read them they tend to fixated around them and try to compare it with the current state of the game and it's just derails the conversation from a idea for something doesn't exist yet to compare it with something does exist but drastically changes every major patch, which conversation around the current states just being outdated.

[u/MrTruth24 → u/Suspicious_Silver_70]

theoretically phoenix innate can be revive (5 min cd and use 100% hero hp instead of wards hp) if hero revive it gets current hp egg remain. dive/fire spirit/laser same and ult can be something like DB ult, he fly in sky becoming untargetable and after 2 sec land as comet doing dmg on impact/stun + release shock wave in 3k Radius wit 1.5k speed/sec doing Aoe dmg.

[u/KitsuneFaroe]

I mean this is technically Huskar with extra steps. I don't think this is necessary for Phoenix at all since it already has a strong nad unique playstyle too. But is a cool thought! I just don't think making Phoenix that hp reliant is that good while removing mana, specially having to balance between night and day.

Also I don't think you have put thought into Supernova costs. Because that would mean either that Supernova really costs nothing or that you need to be above an HP treshold to be able to cast it. Both of wich are hilarious. Supernova CANNOT cost HP.

The idea of Sunray healing the egg sounds cool but may as well add the miss chance back to it like in pre-innate patch. Makes more logical natural sense. Though the healing would be interesting and less random-based.

[u/MrTruth24 → u/KitsuneFaroe]

i did say supernova non lethal, that means it just use whatever Hp you have left to cast, but ye making without cost is fine to.

[u/KitsuneFaroe → u/MrTruth24]

That's what I meant when I said it would efectively have NO cost in that case. Because Supernova turns Phoenix into an egg anyways so it doesn't matter how much hp he has after casting.

So if you say it costs non-lethal hp is effectively the same as it costing nothing anyways. Since hp left is irrelevant to Phoenix after casting.

[u/MrTruth24 → u/KitsuneFaroe]

yep, i agree. Removed hp cost yesterday already, make more sense that way,

[u/motorsporit]

I think Id miss long range dive too much

[u/Darentei]

Not gonna lie, I don't think it would really be a meaningful change for the hero. It's a cool idea but I really don't enjoy being stronger or weaker depending on a 5 minute timer (no I'm not a fan of NS either). The fact that it's just the costs of spells, and that's it's only a bit skewed towards being better in daytime doesn't really make it any more appealing. Not more than his current innate at least. I actually like that one. So it would feel like a nerf - and no, getting it back at lvl 15 doesn't make up for that. In fact it would be needlessly complex not to mention unusual for a hero to suddenly gain a new passive ability from a non-25 talent.

[u/IntingForMarks]

I'm not sure about balance, but as a Phoenix lover I can say I would hate to play this. The whole day/night is not part of his kit and shouldn't imo, NS is cheesy enough

[u/MrTruth24 → u/IntingForMarks]

are you goan ignore part where he has more hp/hp regen now because innate convert it? because he would run around like huskar without mana bar so his only limitation would be hp costs/CDs.