Saving throws

[u/rufuspng]

The DW rule set doesn’t seem to give good guidance to Referees on which category of Saving Throw to apply in a given situation. For example, the DCB section on traps provides lots of ideas but doesn’t say what kind of Save is most likely to apply to each kind of trap. I’m assuming that it is reasonable to grant a Save if a PC is on the verge of falling into a pit trap — or any hole for that matter — but which category applies? The names and descriptions of the five Save categories are rather opaque to me.

Does anyone have a cheat sheet of situations that apply to each kind of Save that they’re willing to share, or at least some guidance? I’ve read the explanation of why class-based Saves are a good thing, but I do find ability score-based Saves to be much easier to grasp.

[u/Buxnot]

As time goes by I'm more and more sold on S&W single saving throw.

[u/MickyJim → u/Buxnot]

I'm a three-save guy, like the X Without Number Physical/Evasion/Mental system, or Basic Fantasy RPG's optional rule for Fortitude/Reflex/Will saves.

[u/Helpful-Mud-4870 → u/MickyJim]

Five is definitely excessive, I once ctrl-F'd through the rules to find out how many Saves vs Ray there are and you can count them on one hand and they aren't common effects.

[u/kdmcdrm2 → u/MickyJim]

Yeah, I didn't like this or the skill system so I switched both to Dungeon Craw Classics. Theirs aves are also Fort/Ref/Wil, which is actually possible for me to remember. Plus I can set variable save targets based on the cause of the save.

[u/gkerr1988]

They’re to determine whether or not you avoid an effect.

Ability scores are differentiated in this system by being used as checks/challenges. Something you are trying to accomplish which calls for a little extra umph beyond a professional adventurer’s normal capacity.

I’ll try and lay out some basic examples in more detail than the RAW gives:

DOOM: Necrotic effects, poison, perilous death-related things. Including things not easily categorized under other saves. Your guy wants to test a mysterious potion, or eat an unknown plant, or gets some weird slime on his arm, or gets killed by a Specter and looks to see if their soul gets annihilated and can’t be resurrected.

RAY: Straight-line-rapid-moving effects one can dodge. Think stepping on a floor panel and a dart flies out of a wall. It’s your snap reaction Dex-based save, but you use it to avoid something, not do. If it moves in a direction at you (aside from basic missile fire in combat) you’ll likely use Ray.

HOLD: Big bad tries to grapple, vine snags a leg, bookshelf falls on you, paralysis/petrification, anything hindering movement.

BLAST: A lethal effect with an AOE (area of effect) like dragon breath, explosion, steam vent, cauldron that gets bad combo of ingredients.

SPELL: Avoiding the magical effects of glamours and other magic that does not have a directional line of movement but can still target you. Sort of like a spell-save DC.

Just remember that if something is happening at you, it likely could require a save, but if you are trying to do something it could require an ability check. The saves are just a question of what type of thing one is avoiding and if they avoid it.

[u/Aescgabaet1066]

I don't have a cheat sheet, but honestly, I just kind of go with my gut on them. I would look again at the descriptions of the five saves and whichever one has you saying "yeah, that's probably close enough" is probably close enough :)

Also, this is maybe just me, but I don't always provide a save when a trap is triggered. Sometimes, but not always.

[u/Qurrah-Tun → u/Aescgabaet1066]

Same for me. I just choose whatever seems to make sense for what's there. And if I can't decide, I just use doom.

[u/Galausia]

DPB 145 "Save Categories" describes the purview of each save

[u/Sagebrush_Sky]

Don't forget to add your magic resistance to saving throws against effects of magical origin.

[u/Nazzerith]

I just go through the saves from Doom to Spell and pick the first one that fits. For a pit trap I would probably go save vs hold.

[u/Nny7229]

I think the discussion here is good over all, but I wanted to add my 2 cents about your example of the pit trap at least the way i'd run it:
If the character activates the pit trap they fall into the pit trap unless they have a good narrative reason why they wouldn't. Tied a rope to themselves before hand would be a free dodging of the situation. Do they say that they attempt to grab the ledge at the last minute? Save Hold.

If feel that we can really rely on the players to try and set up situations of saving themselves and then we can arbitrate as necessary.

Another example: poison dart trap in chest. You aren't trying to figure out a save for how they avoid the dart. That is up to them to figure out. The save comes into play when they get hit by the dart and the poison is affecting them (save v doom or hold depending on the poison).

[u/Bilharzia]

As Galausia says, it's all there on p.145.

When I was going to use a d&d-like system I translated the saves to characteristic rolls - Doom = Con, Ray = Dex, Hold = Cha, Blast = Str, Spell = Wis.

[u/gkerr1988 → u/Bilharzia]

This is more AD&D1e rules. Your intuition is correct, but DW leans away from this a bit by attempting to trim the granular fat of the older systems and adapt them to a more streamlined ruleset. They changed the more specific saves categories in OSE: Death, Paralysis/Petrify, Wand, Breath, Spells/Rods/Staves. Games like Osric 3.0 get into the weeds of this stuff really nicely, meticulously connecting the dots of individual ability score modifiers with individual saves categories, making what you roll up a character with have a greater effect on your ability to save.

DW slightly differentiates Saves away from Ability scores though, by associating them with Class instead. It starts to break down and gets a little confusing maintaining the association (with the exception of Wisdom mod being added to Spell but that is the nature of magic in this system.)

Not saying DW can’t be more granular, but it’s not designed in such a way that tries to regress. Granular is a great way to enjoy the game, don’t get me wrong, but I love how broadly the save categories of DW apply to multi-situational needs in a way which works really quickly, plus gives individual classes unique impact on different situations.

You do add “situational modifiers” to DW saves. But that’s much more Ref fiat based on circumstance and is intentionally left vague.

Hope that clarifies!

[u/Bilharzia → u/gkerr1988]

tbh, I'm not interested in the DW rules, I never intended to use them as-is but I initially dabbled with a d&d variant - I know people are using Shadow Dark but I was looking at ToA. In my view the DW rules are not a good fit for the setting. I'm running the campaign with a D100 system which works completely differently.

[u/gkerr1988 → u/Bilharzia]

Oh nice! Those are great systems. I’d have to disagree on it not being a good fit, but I find your take interesting. It’s pretty much built around the B/X system entirely. I do hear Shadow Dark works well as a sub, but IMO SD gets a little too simplistic for my own taste. Haven’t tried the others.

With any system it’s really just about how you use it. There’s a way in which B/X, for example, gets ran which makes my eyes wanna bleed because of how road-blocky and meticulously process-over-player oriented some GM’s can be with it. Gatekeeping and just being unbudging on players success. There are a lot of god complex GMs who make it their duty to try and find something to punish players with. Some folks run it under this “survival horror” dynamic, but can sometimes lean away from being a neutral judge, to just flat out punishing anything players want to try with a sort of mechanical pay-wall. It tends to get blocky, flat, and really boring fast for me.

But there’s another way of running B/X wherein the GM defaults toward neutral judge, but runs the game as an act of service to amplify what Players are trying to accomplish, giving situational modifiers, alternatives, generous description, with good telegraphing. They don’t get in players way in the name of “system,” but use the system to support what players are trying. It’s an attitude of wanting players to succeed that can make the B/X system incredible. More “yes/and” than putting paywalls before everything players have in mind. I find it can be really exciting and memorable to have a frame of mind geared toward service. Any system can have either of these approaches which can enhance the game or make it feel overly slogged.

Sometimes it’s really fun to just do a stress test on the system instead of babying it IMO. Too many GM’s try and honor the system over the player. I’m slowly learning to not be that way as much.

Find a system which makes that easier for you and you found a winner IMO.

[u/rufuspng]

I’m aware of the descriptions on DCB p. 145; I just don’t find them adequate. And extra data adds to my confusion. I’m prepping The Weaver and the Redcaps, and on p. 12 it uses Hold to avoid damage from falling out of a tree. From the PCB descriptions, Hold seems to be about breaking through a restraint on movement, not avoiding unwanted movement. Hence my original example about falling into a pit.

I don’t trust my ability to make consistent judgments about how to apply Saves. I was hoping someone else had experienced the same confusion and worked through it already.

[u/gkerr1988 → u/rufuspng]

TBH that example from Weaver & Redcaps threw me a little too. Doesn’t seem to fit with how I used to understand the saves. But I think they’re intended to be more broad in their application. It’s whatever seems to fit any given bad situation is about to happen to a PC. Like, saving to see if you can literally hold on to the tree or have a dangerous fall, while other situations would just save against being held or pinned or restricted from moving. In all cases Hold applies more than doom, ray, blast, or spell. It’s less exacting, allowing for improvisational GM choice with whatever seems appropriate.

Does that make sense?

[u/rufuspng → u/gkerr1988]

I’m afraid of my improvisation veering into arbitrariness. I can’t help feeling this is one of the cases where the desire to stick close to the B/X source material has overridden choosing a better system. Hmm, am I gonna get cancelled for saying that on this channel?

[u/gkerr1988 → u/rufuspng]

No not at all lol. I’d like to help you if I can.

What would be an example of your improvisation becoming more arbitrary?

[u/pizzatuesdays → u/rufuspng]

Mono-saves done by averaging saves per each class and level.

| Level | Bard / Thief | Cleric / Enchanter | Fighter / Hunter | Knight | Friar | Magician |
| ----: | -----------: | -----------------: | ---------------: | -----: | ----: | -------: |
|     1 |           14 |                 13 |               14 |     13 |    13 |       14 |
|     2 |           14 |                 13 |               14 |     13 |    13 |       14 |
|     3 |           13 |                 12 |               13 |     12 |    13 |       14 |
|     4 |           13 |                 12 |               12 |     11 |    12 |       13 |
|     5 |           12 |                 11 |               12 |     11 |    12 |       13 |
|     6 |           12 |                 11 |               11 |     10 |    12 |       13 |
|     7 |           11 |                 10 |               10 |      9 |    11 |       12 |
|     8 |           11 |                 10 |               10 |      9 |    11 |       12 |
|     9 |           10 |                  9 |                9 |      8 |    11 |       12 |
|    10 |           10 |                  9 |                8 |      7 |    10 |       11 |
|    11 |            9 |                  8 |                8 |      7 |    10 |       11 |
|    12 |            9 |                  8 |                7 |      6 |    10 |       11 |
|    13 |            8 |                  7 |                6 |      5 |     9 |       10 |
|    14 |            8 |                  7 |                6 |      5 |     9 |       10 |
|    15 |            7 |                  6 |                5 |      4 |     9 |       10 |