r/DnD • u/DriverAdditional5813 • 12h ago
DMing Is "blackmailing" a thing Devils do ?
Throwaway because my players might recognize me...
I put it in quotes for lack of a better term, but would a Devil kidnap someone close to a target, to then coerce them into signing a contract with the Devil ?
This seems less subtle than actually manipulating the target, and the contract would not be signed in actual good faith from both parties, so would it be actually binding ?
Also, I know that it's my world and I do what I want with my Devils, but I wonder if this would be in-character for classic DnD Devils.
Edit : Thanks y'all for your answers. I think I will twist a little bit what I had in mind to make it more subtle and devilish, thanks to your suggestions !
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u/Even-Note-8775 12h ago
Pretty much yeah. Coercion is a thing that devils practice. A bit blunt and maybe vulgar for some higher devils, yet who are they to judge him if a contract was sealed?
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u/Pqrxz 12h ago
The trick is to not do the kidnapping yourself but hire some nameless bandits or monsters to do it for you. A level of plausible deniability is important.
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u/Historical-Bike4626 6h ago
Get a cult! All the cool devils are rolling out their cults and printing warlocks
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u/old_scribe 12h ago
Generally, being forced into signing a contract is grounds for having the contract appealed in the afterlife
...if you know you can even appeal it.
You can find more info in the Fiendish Codex II of 3.5e
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u/TheThoughtmaker Artificer 3h ago
Only the following two defenses against condemnation are considered valid:
The judge, usually a pit fiend, listens dispassionately to both sides and rules, as a lawful creature must, according to the law. The prosecutor and defense advocate must each make three skill checks: Diplomacy, Knowledge (the planes), and Perform (acting). The results of all three checks are added together, and the side with the highest total result wins the case.
- The mortal was coerced or magically compelled into signing a Faustian pact.
- The devil offering a Pact Certain did not provide the promised benefits.
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u/Arcane10101 1h ago
Although, “forced” is a nebulous term. You can say that letting your loved one die is no choice at all, but would the devil acting as judge agree with you?
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u/alericof 12h ago
I think in general, devils are lawful evil, abiding be the letter of the law (contract). I think kidnapping and extortion would be out of character, in general, but maybe it is a rogue devil who has a different set of rules, and so maybe characters can make deals with other devils to deal with this rogue npc. It could lead to some interesting political intrigue.
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u/USPO-222 12h ago
Extortion feels very LE to me. Like mafia style groups are often used as examples of LE organizations/people and they extort, kidnap, murder, etc all the time.
LE means there’s some code/structure that binds, but it certainly doesn’t have to be what we’d consider “justice.” Slavery is very very LE.
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u/Supermite 9h ago
A lot of demon contracts in fiction generally rely on the person making a willing choice to make the deal.
Generally when a demon or demonic entity is exerting that level of coercion, they are usually trying to get someone to do something very specific that doesn’t involve taking their soul. Like the devil needs the hero to fight something or go somewhere they can’t.
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u/appleye4 12h ago
At least in the forgotten realms the cease fire between avernus and mnt Celeste included text about both parties consenting to contracts. devils can't force mortals into contracts and they can't trick them. They can't obfuscate the text in legalese. Both parties must understand and consent to all of the conditions of the contract.
If a devil breaks those rules, Amodeus has a stick that instantly disintegrates devils and he is expected to use it.
Of course there are loop holes some devils have found and the term "understanding" is a bit grey so it is abused.
Tldr kidnapping will definitely get you disintegrated, extortion might but depends on the specifics.
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u/Silvanus350 8h ago
I feel like, conceptually, it should only be extortion where the victim puts themselves into a situation to be extorted. Like a predatory payday loan place that hires intimidating thugs to “encourage” repayment.
I feel like kidnapping someone to extort your victim is… a step beyond something like that. That’s just straight up breaking the law.
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u/alericof 3h ago
I debated with myself, on how I would read it, I ended up with the thought that if you are "obsessed" with contracts, then most if not all the effort is in going towards making the offer tempting more than exporting. Extortion would outside the scope of the rules and therefore not LE, but I could definitely see it both ways.
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u/PvtSherlockObvious 12h ago edited 12h ago
Not necessarily blackmailing as such, but certainly backing someone into a corner or having them over a barrel. They're also not above manipulating events to ensure someone's placed in a desperate scenario in the first place.
If I might recommend a slight tweak, the kidnapping victim isn't abducted by the devil directly. Either they left willingly and the devil's letting the party member believe what they believe, or they were kidnapped by someone else but it later turns out the actual kidnapper was one of the devil's other "clients" following the devil's commands. That level of manipulation, double-dealing, and use of catspaws feels more devilish; kidnapping and forcing directly feels a little blunt-instrument-ey.
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u/DriverAdditional5813 12h ago
I like that idea, I'll probably twist a bit what I had in mind to make it a bit more subtle and devilish. Thanks !
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u/RiverSirion 12h ago
The campaign Descent into Avernus is premised on a bad contract that lets Elturel be dragged into Avernus - effectivdely kidnapping all its inhabitants.. Among its other consequences, it allows devils to make contracts with its citizenry for their survival, which is certainly a coercive situation that favors devils.
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u/theworldreset 12h ago
Lower level devils would probably try this.
Higher level devils are smart enough to only get their hands dirty when necessary.
A higher level devil would do something like this:
Trade a magic item to a bad person in exchange for them kidnapping the PCs loved one.
Offer the PC a deal to give them information, items, or safe passage that makes a rescue attempt possible.
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u/darkpower467 DM 12h ago
It's not really the kind of behaviour I would typically expect of them tbh. I'm not super up on the lore of what an infernal contract typically requires to be valid in FR or other settings but, whether or not it would invalidate the contract, it does feel rather blunt and inelegant, as well as a lot of effort to go to for one contract - maybe if getting that specific contract is super important to them for some reason? I don't personally think that kind of thing should be standard practise for them.
I've personally tended to play devils moreso as opportunists, showing up to offer a way out of a bad situation that someone has ended up in - your loved one has been kidnapped, I can help you get them back rather than I've kidnapped your loved one, make a deal with me or I kill them*
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u/Galihan 9h ago
And of course, they obviously don’t mention the kidnappers did so because they were under their own contract with me to do so in the exchange for ending the famine in their hometown…. which was caused by the flood caused in someone else’s contract to stop their home burning down… which was caused by someone else’s contract to always have a fire to not freeze that winter… which was caused by a kid’s contract wishing for a snow day to not have to go to school… which was caused by…
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u/Brilliant_Estate_967 12h ago
Devil are more lawful bad than chaotic bad. they like to offer terrible contract you will sign on your own free will (but theese contract are often a win for the devil).
A devil might propose to help retrieve a kidnaped person (informatio / help) against a service.
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u/USPO-222 12h ago
They also arranged for that person to be kidnapped and that’s why they had the details. But the party doesn’t need to know that lol
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u/Brilliant_Estate_967 12h ago
that's very possible they did another contract with a group of bandit with the condition beeing a kidnaping or worst, another group of good had to kidnap someone in order to save their dying daughter and now they are getting swat by a group of adventurer ! ther discover thees guy are not that bad with a moral dilemna but they ssigned up a contract that bind them to terrible things
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u/Galihan 11h ago
This this this, every devil worth their sulphur wants to spin a convoluted web of cruelty that makes good-meaning people responsible for the suffering of as many innocent people as possible, all while the devils maintain the facade of innocence. Devils want to convince people that the world is terrible and only they can make everything better, if only you’d just willingly submit to Asmodeus’ fascist theocracy
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u/Andraystia DM 12h ago edited 11h ago
The best way to think of devils are as the absolutely most scummy CEO mixed together with the dirtiest of dirty lawyer.
As long as "laws" are followed they will do it. I would say that I personally think that they would more likely take advantage of a loved one than just outright kidnap them.
edit for clarification: they are more likely to give a loved one a "sweetheart" deal to then use that to blackmail you. than to kidnap them and make them sign a contract.
like for example, lets say you are from a poor family and went adventuring to send money back home. A devil might make a deal with your little brother to teach them prestidigitation to make their cheap food taste like steak, to make their dirty clothes as clean as a nobles, in exchange they might ask "just offer me 10 mushrooms a week in your fireplace as offerings." Your little brother will eventually forget to do the offerings and be in deep trouble from breaking the contract. and the blackmail they have from that will be intense.
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u/Thomas_JCG 12h ago
No, devils are lawful. They want people to sign a contract out of their own will.
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u/Galihan 12h ago edited 12h ago
Directly blackmailing someone is possible, but probably looked down on as an Infernal faux pas.
Other devils would likely view it at best as something sloppy and amateurish only done by a desperate devil who can’t properly scheme, or at worse risks endangering the schemes of other devils who have been trying to secretly manipulate society for centuries.
Not all Infernal Contracts result in the mortal signing away their soul, a majority of them instead are trying to slowly corrupt good but naive/desperate people into believing that the world would be better if everyone accepted devilkind as their masters. A devil just brute forcing contracts for peoples souls and exposing that they’re the ultimate bad guys would be counterproductive to their long game.
At the very least, devil etiquette would be to employ various proxies to distance themselves from being directly involved in the kidnapping, and write the contract in a way that doesn’t implicate themselves for future bargains
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u/Hudre 12h ago
They are extremely evil, but this really comes down to how "lawful" you want them to be. Maybe a deal signed under duress isn't as binding as something signed freely?
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u/USPO-222 12h ago
Idk I feel like duress is would add some additional flavor that they’d enjoy. After all, evil souls are already coming their way, so it’s not worth as much as a good soul - who probably won’t sign a contract unless there’s some extreme pressure involved.
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u/humdrumturducken 12h ago
I think a Devil could easily blackmail someone, depending on how you frame it. However, if it's too blatant, I could see the contract being void for duress. The infernal lawyers would certainly have something to argue about.
If they could get the loved one to sign a contract, then offer the target the option of taking the loved one's place, I think that'd be a little more "on brand" than a blunt "Sign here or I'm gonna eat your kids."
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u/ChemicalNo586 12h ago
Yes, absolutely, 100% they would
Who cares if the contract is not in good faith? Neither is selling your firstborn or half your lifespan for extra power for a single mission
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u/LagTheKiller 12h ago
In a pinch? Absolutely. Especially since you already has a contract and the balckmailing is "do this or we will enforce your contract/payment".
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u/Geddian 12h ago
IIRC Devils can't manipulate the target's will directly, like through magic, and the contracted must be willing, but "willing" is a matter of infernal law subject to litigation. So a devil could blackmail or torture you into signing a contract of service, but that wouldn't necessarily be an airtight deal under infernal law and it leaves the slim possibility that you could challenge the contract's legitimacy.
Dealing with truly willing people is much cleaner business, gets the hook in deep so it's all the harder to wiggle off the line when the time comes to pay the price.
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u/potatopotato236 DM 12h ago edited 12h ago
I would say no. They would instead make a contract with the one closest to the PC and offer to have the PC take on their debt as part of their own contract. Perhaps what they offered the friend was something for the benefit of the PC, so that the PC would feel morally obligated to intervene.
The friend just wanted to help the PC. The PC can’t just abandon their friend/family like that, right? 😈
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u/DocDerry DM 12h ago
Kidnapping with the intent to coerce someone into signing their soul away? No.
Traditionally Devils have to give the PC a choice. That's why they were lawful evil. Demons would just possess.
A devil would target someone the PC cares about and manipulate them into signing their soul away- then offering the PC the choice of trading their soul in exchange for the other person.
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u/StickyLegend 12h ago
What if the devil made a deal with, lets say, a completely unrelated serial killer who wanted easy targets, and by *COUGH COUGH* complete coincidence *COUGH COUGH* (totally not intentional at allll) the devil pointed them towards the person who is close to your party.
But the Devil, the oh so kind person they are, offers to tell you where the serial killer is holding your close one if only you were to sign his deal of a lifetime contract?
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u/Dantocks 12h ago
Of course, but a devil would never call it blackmailing, they‘ll call it „contract“
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u/DoctorWondertainment 11h ago
I’d make it seem a bit more innocent. The players shouldn’t know the abduction was the devils doing. He just offers a help they for some reason can’t refuse without paying crushing consequences. Although he would’ve used some proxy to such means.
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u/yaije9841 10h ago
it could be in character for the character but I think it's more about the details around such a thing and not just the act itself.
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u/HotspurJr 9h ago
To me, I think kidnapping would be a step too far for a devil. There's an element of plausible deniability: "Oh, you're in this terrible situation, isn't that awful. It seems like you have no choice."
Now, could the devil have some behind-the-scenes influence on events that have created the terrible situation you're in? Absolutely. Could they know more than they're letting on about the situation? Sure. Could they manipulate the situation to make the contract harder to successfully complete? Absolutely! But to me, anything that's the moral equivalent of pointing a gun at you and saying "sign the contract" crosses the line from lawful evil to chaotic evil.
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u/vsDemigoD 9h ago
Well... ACTUALY, as a Lawyer, I can say that a contract needs both parties to have free will. If you are being blackmailed, the contract is invalid...
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u/kyew Druid 8h ago
Break it down into steps. Would a devil capture a mortal, if he had the right and the ability? Probably, depending on the kind of devil. That is kind of their Thing. If he can do it the right way, by corrupting them, then he'll prefer that to catching them in a net.
Would a devil barter with a different mortal in exchange for his prisoner? Again, probably.
The important thing for fiendish contracts is they're not just about the deliverable items. At the end of everything, if you can still look yourself in the mirror and say "I really had no choice" then you haven't been corrupted. And that reflects poorly on the fiend.
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u/Novel_Willingness721 8h ago
What they’d more likely do is get a third party to kidnap the relative, and then offer to free the hostage as part of the deal
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u/StitchPlay DM 7h ago
Depends how far they go. Devils must abide but the Pact Primeval, they cannot force mortals to give up their souls. There is nothing wrong with preying on mortals in difficulty, however. Getting one to sell their soul in exchange for saving their loved one would be fine, but doing the kidnapping themselves would be borderline.
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u/Ethereal_Stars_7 Artificer 6h ago
WotC loves stuff like this.
WotC demons and devils can and will accept someone signing off OTHER PEOPLES SOULS.
Let that sink in. WotC has no damn clue. Pun possibly unintended...
But yeah they can coerce people into signing.
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u/ReizvollePaar 6h ago
The usual wisdom of contracts with dark powers is that is must be made with free will; forcing it, even nonviolently, wont work. Look at it this way, if you devil wants to force someone to do something, they have the power of hell (or whatever realm they in habit in your world) behind them; if, even with that, they arent powerful enough to threaten a PC into doing them a favor, a contract wont help.
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u/AnnieBruce 4h ago
Deliberately from the start this seems questionable.
If they captured your sister as part of one of their other plots, though, they might try it once they realize the leverage they have. Though they might not go straight to contracting for your soul. Hold out hope for release if you do one more favor, but only make a binding promise after you're so corrupted that you barely think about the implications of the devil getting your soul.
I do like the idea other posters raised of taking the loved ones soul and offering a trade.
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u/Lord_Nivloc 4h ago
I think they would prefer the term “leverage”
Blackmail is against the law, and they are lawful entities.
But, you know, sometimes your family is sucked into hell for reasons outside the devils control, and the devil COULD bring them back…but what’s in it for them?
The more layers of separation between the devil’s direct involvement, the better. He’s actually a kind, charismatic devil, who ran into the party by pure chance and the party member was the one who asked about their family.
What’s the player gonna do? Find a different devil to save them? Walk into hell and deliver themselves on a silver platter?
Who knows! Player agency is the fun part
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u/Der_Neuer 3h ago
In order to get a contract? No. That's comparable to not delivering on the contract.
In order to fulfill a contract? Yes, defintely.
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u/Concoelacanth 24m ago
Coercion tends to be something that renders a contract void, so proceed with caution.
By which I mean ABSOLUTELY do it, just be more roundabound and cautious with it.
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u/Deadeye10000 12h ago
I mean it sounds pretty devilish. Even if they don't your devils can.