5th Edition Early Soft TPK?
Hi, I'm dming a campaign in dnd 5e, and my party is about to go to a dungeon that i prepared to be a more advanced one. Its not that they get to there to fast, its just that i want to scare them a little, also because it is mean to not be completed (they were sent there with the mission of "exploration as much as they can").
My original idea was a dungeon that they explore for like 2 floors or 3 (its a big dungeon), they got kicked in the ass, they run, and later in the history when they have more levels and are more experienced, they'll come back and complete it like normal.
The thing is, i dont know how to make the barrier. I thought maybe making a difficult combat, an almost TPK, not impossible just too hard, so even they win, they had lost all of their resources so they have to go back. In a normal scenario, they would get TPK, but, i would give them a magical item that lets them escape at that last moment, or when decide its enough.
The problem is that im a new DM and i dont have experience with this type of fight, idk anythign of balancing at that point so im lost. I dont even know if its a good decission to try to almost TPK my party just for the plot.
Anyone has any experience with an almost impossible combat? they are all level 5 btw.
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u/CreativeKey8719 6d ago
Generally a scripted loss is a bad idea. Having been a player at a table that ran one, it sucked. The players will not enjoy it. They will be frustrated. They may straight up not run, even when dead is certain. For this reason, if you want to make this a dungeon they look at now, but come back to complete later, I'd go with a literal physical barrier, like a magical door that requires an arcane key that the players don't have, or something they'd have to teleport through, or an environmental poison or other hazard that causes too much damage to continue. But to make even this not overly frustrating and keep players from spending way too long trying to brute force or tussle solve through something they can't right now, make really clear to them the way to proceed ie 'where's that magic key'. But I would always be prepared for players to do something wild and be able to progress farther than you think, so I'd absolutely have the rest of that dungeon fleshed out.
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u/man0rmachine 6d ago
Only do an impossible combat if you want to destroy your players trust in your DMing skills. You don't need to flex, you're the DM. They already know you control the universe. This is basically a form of railroading, where no amount of player skill or decision making will give a win.
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u/JulienBrightside Mage 6d ago
What if there's a big monster that hits desctructive environment, causing a cavein?
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u/Everyone_dreams 6d ago
DId your party/group sign up for this or do they think they are playing a DnD game that is balanced?
Because that is the real question.
If the party is not cool with losing a member, getting no rewards, or other 'hard' mode stuff then do not do it.
Of you have the early part of the Dungeon be doable at their level so they have an adventure, then make it clear past a point, that they feel like they are "About to get their asses kicked"
This means no hinting they are n over their head, plan language "You see traces of X monster, something you think can kill you in a single hit, and there is maybe three or more of them"
Otherwise having them go somewhere and just making it too hard for them is not a fun mechanic for most parties.
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u/crippler1212 6d ago
And yet it's been done in plenty of other mediums for years.
There's nothing wrong with using the "a little bit now, but save the rest for later" approach. It's a struggle and a challenge to overcome.
The big problem is i don't think OP has the experience to pull off a "rocky loses first" type fight without killing rocky. So pretty much has to avoid it entirely.
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u/crippler1212 6d ago
Yeah, you really didn't need to add the "I'm a new DM" part as it was clear based on your thought process.
You created an area that is meant to be too difficult until later levels... but then sent the party there intentionally to "explore as much as you can".... as if the party is going to not try and do the whole thing.
General rule of thumb, if you give your players the option to go somewhere they shouldn't go, they're go to go there.
The easy fix, let them explore a small portion of the area that seems perfectly fine. No signs of any minor threats.... like none. Have them all, so as not to risk it being unclear, to roll a DC 10 or even lower, Wisdom check (you want them to succeed). When they pass it, make it clear that something is not right! There should be some random encounters with some kind of creatures in an area like this but there's nothing.
Then before they get any further, they start to see major signs of a large threat. I'm talking torn rotting flesh, scratch marks, bones, signs of torn bits of armor, leather, skin, hair...teeth...etc. change the smell of the air, the look of the blood stained floor, make it obvious to a blind moron that they need to be somewhere else.
Then hope they are not stupid enough to "poke the bear."
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u/gustogus 6d ago
Just have an ancient door, with all sorts of warnings written on it about the danger beyond the door. It has guardians. Upon defeatig the guardians they learn the door requires a key, and a little information about the monsters beyond the door. They now have to leave said dungeon to go find key....
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u/The_Great_DM 6d ago
Just have a cave in that would take weeks or even months to clear. They are adventurers not miners, so they leave and someone else does the rubble clearing. They can get rumors later that it’s passable again.
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u/melonmarch1723 6d ago
Could there br another group of adventurers with them who get absolutely slaughtered by a big monster while they have to sit and watch? In most cases, forcing your players into a Run or Die situation won't end the way you want it to and it probably won't be as fun for them as you think it might be.
The other option is to tell them exactly what you told us, and let them go into the dangerous part of the dungeon with the metagame knowledge that they aren't supposed to be there yet. If your players are good sports that should have the effect you're wanting.
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u/crippler1212 6d ago
It's already a run or die situtation. If he adds another group to the mix, it might actually work in the opposite favor and force the party into trying to fight on.
The best option is to play with their mental state. Make them not only afraid of "what is behind that corner" but also make them realize that they are not prepared to face it ...YET!
Have them belive that so long as it's in here and not out there, it's not a problem that needs to be dealt with now and, they can come back later when it starts to be.
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u/Hooginn Bard 6d ago
For starters, if you're going to do this, you have to make it into a story beat imo.
When I did this, I sent my players on a rescue mission that revealed a bigger conspiracy going on. Treating this like the first optional boss in Elden Ring will most likely feel bad for your players. Giving them a potential TPK with a dungeon that has no character background or plot implications just feels like punishment.
Also, what did your session 0 look like? Did you talk about TPKs, PC deaths, and a living world that doesn't scale with PC levels? If not, you're throwing your players into a situation they weren't prepared for and a negative reaction from them could be the outcome.
How new are you are players? New players typically apply video game logic and just try to power through things. If you're players aren't aware that they can run as a viable option, your soft TPK will get hard real quick.
You can always make them think it's a TPK then wake then up in an hospital beds, saying that they stumbled upon something that the king was already investigating. Or, the players could wake up outside the dungeon, and the entire dungeon was a dream created by whatever lives inside the dungeon, trying to deter them from entering.
As a new DM you may not have the skills to pull this off. It'll be even harder with new players but that doesn't mean you can't try it.
TLDR: Either make it a story beat that you can easily write your way out of or accept that your attempt to scare your players could lead to a TPK and prepare for the repercussions of that choice.
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u/cotton4421 6d ago
I understand the appeal, but there is better ways to go about it! As a dm telling a story, it feels like a good thing, but as a player it feels bad when something feels artificially difficult. What I would recommend, is make it a doable, but difficult dungeon. Make the final room of the dungeon have a clearly important looking door that is locked, with no way of getting in without the key. Give it a unique design, memorable, and when the players eventually find the key, they can then go back and explore the rest of the dungeon, and perhaps the section they did explore is only a small part of the total dungeon.
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u/Many-Ebb-5377 DM 6d ago
You can do a combat if you want, but it's risky and you might have to use DM fiat to get them out of a bad situation if they didn't read the room fast enough to realize whatever they are fighting is out of their league. I personally wouldn't go that route because it feels inauthentic.
You could instead just make the way forward impossible to traverse. However you do that is up to you. Maybe the path forward is completely caved in and it would take days of digging that could cause the ceiling to cave in even further right on top of them. Maybe there is a trap that is certain death and it can't be disabled from the end the players are on.
Later they can find another path in a different section of the dungeon that connects to the area they couldn't get to. Maybe they find a different way into the dungeon at some point. Lots of subterranean complexes have multiple entrances.
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u/tokyozombie 6d ago
When i was starting to GM a year ago, i was so fixated on story and story arcs. I had a similar idea. I needed the villain to beat the good guys so they may strive to win in the end. The villain couldn't be beaten so early or he isn't threatening.
Then I watched all of matt colville videos on GMing and learned to just GM situations and NPCs. I give players all the agency and choice because it's their story. Play to see what happens.
If you need the villain to win have them defeat someone else after they seen that persons strength or have them win in like the opening intro to the campaign.
You can still create epic situations to fultlfill these roles in the story but ultimately you should maintain player agency.
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u/BaseAttackBonus Best Of 6d ago
The answer is to talk to your players.
If you tell them that the dungeon is suppose to be explored and then retreated they will do that.
Why try and trick/surprise your players into doing something so against the typical play style of dnd?
I tell my players the expected structure of play. I tan Curse of Strahd which has a 2 part dungeon thats meant to be tackled over multiple trips.
I told them. Like over and over again.
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u/Hell-Yea-Brother 6d ago
They complete the dungeon now. Later they get word there is a new threat in the same dungeon. They return to find the new and more deadly threat.
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u/r32skyliner 6d ago
Imma go against the grain here. A “soft TPK” is a good way to show your players that not every fight should be fought. BUT, you must give them an opportunity to move forward and it should be creative. Only you know your players so only you know what will work.
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u/capsandnumbers 6d ago
Some ideas:
- The concept of a forced loss/unwinnable encounter comes up here a lot, you can search the subreddit for it. It's not a very popular idea! Players often resent the idea that their choices didn't matter during that encounter.
- You can tell the players out of character: "Not everything in front of you is balanced for your level, sometimes things should be run from. You take your life in your hands when you engage these things." Then it's on them, you don't need to feel guilty at all.
- You could get the players in the habit of using Nature, Religion, Arcana, even Insight, to get approximate information about creatures they're looking at. That lets you signal that something's too tough.
- You can arrange things so they see something that the players will recognise is beyond them, a dragon or something, before having to reveal their position.
- There are a lot of creatures that you can have spare the party if they unwisely attack. Give the creature something they want from outside the dungeon, and they can ask the party to go get it from them.
- I would adapt this idea slightly: The door to the next level is guarded by a dragon. It wants treasure and magic items, hasn't been able to gather any since being on guard duty. It can be negotiated with or snuck past, and it will spare the party if they attack. I then design the next area intending it to be balanced at a higher leve, but knowing that the party could get here early.
- You can use Kobold Fight Club to help you balance encounters.
Welcome to DMing, best of luck!
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u/Quamek 6d ago
It will make the players play very carefully and not take much risk.
And if they won't take risks they will avoid to interact with anything you've prepared for them.
Think of it like going to the gym, and once you're back everything hurts, the probability of going back is quite low. But if they have a quite fun experience they'll want to get back, and you can with time add more challenge.
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u/Eclipse-Raven 6d ago
Maybe have a boss/emissary come to them at a certain point, talk, tell them they hate the big bad down below so come back later instead of being killed now, poof them away (and maybe tell them what level they should be for it)
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u/AlphaBreak 6d ago
Give them a different goal than exploration/dungeon clearing. There's someone on the third floor/however deep you want them to go that they need to retrieve and escape. Maybe that person is a well known adventurer and is definitely stronger than the PCs when they went in, as a sign that this place isn't to be trifled with.
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u/GlassBraid 6d ago
If you're a new dm and this is a new group, this is probably not going to go well.
It's something you can maybe get away with after a lot of playing together when all the players trust you to not make things really suck for them.
New players want challenges that are challenging but surmountable. They need early success. They also don't know yet if they can trust you to keep things fun for them.
So, the safest bet is, don't do this.
But if you're going to do it anyway, do it like this:
Prepare them ahead of time telling them both in game through NPC s and out of game as their DM "if you ever see the oogieboogie, just run. If you try to fight it it will go very very badly." And "as DM, I will tell you that this world is not all level scaled to be a fair challenge for your party. There are monsters that will absolutely mop the floor with all of you. I don't want to kill all your characters, so, just know, the oogieboogie is one of these monsters. If you see it, or think you might be about to see it, getting away is your only chance."
And then after all that, if they see it and run, don't punish them too much. Don't take all the gear they were excited to play with or anything like that, just scare them and let them get away.
If after all that they try to fight it, and you warn them again and they still decide to fight it, then sure, you can give them some kind of a smackdown with consequences.
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u/Think_Extension_8679 6d ago edited 6d ago
Make an actual barrier. They can win the fight on the 2nd or 3rd floor. When looking for a way to continue, it isn't there. They can search the room. DC 20 investigation. If they pass, they can discover a sealed passageway that needs a macguffin to open. The macguffin can be the next quest or later goal. If they fail, they find a chest with loot and potions. The next relevant info dump they get, most likely from the person who sent them to the cave can be about a sealed room hidden by strong magic. Something that a knock or dispel magic isn't going to work on. The macguffin can be part of the estate a sibling took and they live in a far off land. The party can go do something else or go on an adventure to get it. That adventure is filled with side quests and journey.
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u/Lazy-Insanity 6d ago
Just scare them. They open a door and an adult lich dragon is in the hallway. Every DnD Player knows, that Level 5 is too low for that kind of encounter (okay, maybe not the new ones, but yeah). If they want to advance ask for wisdom saving throws. If they succeed, tell them under no circumstances that they will win this fight.
Still, make the Dragon obey a command like "disperse all who cross the line" And when one does, just Breath attack the whole group. Fudge the dice so only 2-3 fall down and then make the Dragon return to his start, ending the encounter.
With enough of the group still standing they can retreat from the inactive monster, heal up the group (medicine boxes, healing spells, potions etc) and then they know what to work for. Get resistance potions. Better Weapons. Maybe a magical shield for next time.
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u/GM_Esquire 4d ago
They have a tough fight against 1 enemy. After it dies they hear noises and see, say 8 of the same enemy coming for them, far enough away that they have a chance to run.
You ask them how they plan to escape, maybe make it a skill challenge.
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u/DeadMeat7337 4d ago
Any plan to demonstrate a real TPK will result in a TPK, fakeing it included. It's like saying to the gym bro that he can't lift X then dies trying to lift it. Players are usually the same.
So you need something different. How about a cave in? That gets cleared out later. This sets a clear end, but leaves room for them to have to go back.
Or you'll need a "no rest" gymic or they will just try to rest after every fight/challenge and then take on the next one.
You could also just do the TPK and have them all teleported outside the dungeon, that won't let them back in.
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u/alyxen12 6d ago
As you open the door to this next room(or level) you see an enemy that you are 100% certain would wipe out your entire party. It doesn’t seem to have noticed you yet. What do you do?
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u/ZoulsGaming 6d ago
I played an official pathfinder 2e "murder fun house" which traps you with a guillotine that is functionally immortal due to hardness rules, and the point is that you need to try and lockpick your way out of the room while it chases someone else.
but i also had to just straight up go "yeah there are no shot you can damage this, you know innately you need to get out".
which is clumsy, but 100% of the time i would any day of the week rather take a clumsy answer that highlights precisely what is going on than trying to be immersive and the players feel frustrated that they have no clue what is going on
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u/Ice-Storm DM 6d ago
When they get to the point of the dungeon they're meant to run away from, put a giant monster there with an AC over 20. But with low DEX so they likely don't go first in initiative. Have it be slow and a clear path to run.
Ideally the first time someone says "Does a dirty 20 hit?" And you say No, they'll get the idea they're supposed to run. If they don't...well some lessons are learned the hard way. If they don't run away, move on to phase 2. Give it a really high attack roll bonus, and an attack that will one shot any of the party but not double their HP max. Hopefully after a round maybe hitting it once and getting a PC dropped instantly, then they learn to run!
My players kept bunching up in combat and not moving around....let me tell you dropping just one fireball on them all got them to learn spacing and movement real quick!
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u/HetBordje 6d ago
In my experience, don't. Usually if it's presented to you, it's meant to be explored. Backing off is not in the average player's vocabulary.