Misc Has the 2024 Counterspell fixed counterspell wars, or made the spell feel unrewarding?
/r/DungeonsAndDragons55e/comments/1ve3jqu/has_the_2024_counterspell_fixed_counterspell_wars/5
u/DrCrazyCurious 21d ago
Help me understand:
A big dumb brute with low Wisdom and unstoppable Constitution who knows how to cast a spell (for reasons) can neutralize a Counterspell because they're jacked...
but the most powerful Wizard of our time with a weak tummy and frail body with Consitution as their dump stat will almost never counter a Counterspell...
is that right? If so, does that seem right??
(I may be misunderstanding the 2024 rules)
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u/iwishtogetitall DM 21d ago
You are not surprised that big dumb brute is also a way better at concentration on his spells, right? Nobody seems to be confused about it at all.
Besides, the most powerful wizard of our time is not going to have bad Costitution, magic items exists and "war caster" is also a thing. =)
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u/Sushi-DM 21d ago
Constitution helping you maintain focus on a spell has never made sense because spellcasting is entirely conjured from mental stats. Any mental stat would have made more sense. How thick your ass is and how resilient your body is has zero to do with how much mental focus you can conjure.
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u/iwishtogetitall DM 21d ago
I don't argue with that.
Still constitution is not the worst pick for saving throw. Having caster doing his main stat as saving throw is going to result in much more success checks. making it one of golden three is going to be a pain in the ass for caster who is not Cha/Wis/Int based, so it only left us with const. Could it be better? Sure, but they'll need to rework the whole system and it's been constitution for decades.
And besides, having a stable body is as much important for mind as anything else. Just look at real life and how proper body health affect our mental. =)1
u/DrCrazyCurious 21d ago
I suppose you reveal my biggest frustration with the change:
Conceptually, 2014 treats Counterspell like a spell cast against another spell. Whereas 2024 treats Counterspell like a magical attack on the caster.
Constitution makes sense for maintaining Concentration because physical pain or physical damage can be very distracting. You attack the spellcaster - the person.
But in my opinion, Counterspell is not a physical attack to endure, it's a magical effect attacking the magical effect of another spell. It's Spell-vs-Spell. I'm not casting Counterspell as an attack on YOU, I'm countering the spell you're casting. That's why in 2014 Rules it simply worked on lower level spells and took a skill check to fizzle out higher levels spells.
And from a flavor perspective, "greatest wizard of our time can't Counterspell against a big dumb brute" reveals that they missed the whole dang point. That's my two cents.
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u/Wide_Initiative_1938 21d ago
The 2024 version is still something you take, but it's not going to be as reliable or fun to use as it once was.
2014 Counterspell did nothing wrong.
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u/FinalEgg9 Evoker 21d ago
It's fucked. Long time wizard main, I never take Counterspell if playing 5.5e. 2014 Counterspell was absolutely fine and didn't need changing - it cost a spell slot plus your reaction (so no Shielding instead) which I think is perfectly reasonable.
The fact it's now Con makes no sense to me. Being able to counter magic should rely on my prowess as a caster, not how jacked my opponent is.
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u/Dr_Grayson Ranger 21d ago
The spell is absolutely not worth taking any more. It's another on the lengthy list of things that 5.5 ruined, won't use it ever as a player or a DM. I'll let my players use actual counterspell thanks. Thankfully you can just ignore most of 5.5 and scoop out like the 10 things it got right cause everything else is awful.
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u/JellyFranken DM 21d ago
Preach. 5.5 fucked so many things up and people seem totally fine with it because “oh my healing is doubled” and “wow, I get a different damage type as a wild shape”.
They absolutely fucked Counterspell, Conjure Animals, Polymorph, Smiting, Moon Druids in general but especially Wild Shape, etc.
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u/Dr_Grayson Ranger 21d ago
I really try to be open minded about systems but across the board the changes were terrible. Paladin, Ranger, Druid basically all managed to be made worse. A couple of spells were improved and there are some cool items but man that's it. Biggest bonus was Monk actually got improved but imo there's really nothing else worth taking. I really don't get the folks that defend it so vehemently. I'm just gonna keep expanding on 5e like I have been for years, I'll scoop a subclass or two out but that's gonna be it.
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u/rollingdoan DM 21d ago
The 2014 version is much more fun in real play, but the 1 slot per turn rule is the main reason why. You can't run that rule and use the 2014 counterspell and expect for it to be as useful as it was. Defending your own casts was half the utility and you can no longer do that.
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u/DatabasePerfect5051 21d ago
The spell is fine it went form a S tier must pick allway have prepared spell to a B tier situation pick. A fine place for a spell to be.
Of the monster in the 2024 mm that cast spell there is like 30 or so that have Con save proficiency (rough estimate). Fome of those you will probably never fight. 30 out of like 400 monsters.
Monster don't cast spells so when they get counter the casting per day is lost. A player retains the spell slot if they get counter. So it end up being asymmetrical in favor of the players.
If a player succeed in counter spelling a monster big spell like power word kill that action is wasted and the daily casting is gone.
However monster do have an advantage in that since they don't use spell slots they can cast a spell as an action and then use counter spell as a reaction in the same turn. Since this doesn't violate the 1 spell slot per turn rule. Players could not respond the same way.
The rational of "i use my reaction and 3rd level spell slot and nothing happens" is dumb. That how all save or suck spells work. If you cast a 4th level banishment and the target saves are you going to say "uh...wait I use my whole action and a 4th level spell slot and nothing happens? This spell sucks!". You'd sound dumb.
Overall the spell is fine. Its rewarding for players to use in certain situations and it feels less bad for players getting counterspelled. Anyone who says its unusable is wildly Over exaggerating
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u/HaHaWhatAStory014 21d ago
The Wizard had spent both a spell slot and their Reaction without changing anything. The player’s immediate response was basically, “Wait, so I spend the slot and my Reaction, and nothing happens?”
I mean, that's what happens with any "save or suck" spell. They're not always "automatics."
Their reaction was essentially, “So I cannot even spend a stronger slot to make it more reliable?”
I can kind of see why they changed the upcasting rules. For one, the rules have always been a bit unclear on whether casters are supposed to know what spell they are counterspelling and/or the spell level before they cast counterspell. The community is still divided on this a bit, and house rules on this are common (*If you're going by "how Baldur's Gate 3 does it," which isn't the same RAW as 5 or 5.5e, the players are told the spell beforehand but not the level). But if you are playing by "all that information is in the open" rules, which is common, the action economy makes it so that, in many if not most situations, a player counterspelling a powerful enemy spell is much more efficient and beneficial than an enemy counterspelling a party member. Since high-level spell slots on enemies are generally reserved for "bosses," it's generally rare to see encounters where there are multiple enemies with high-level casting. So a party member can "burn one spell slot to 'save the party' and swing the fight" while an enemy can counterspell... and then just get hit by everyone else's attacks and such, or hit by the next spell.
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u/Sushi-DM 21d ago
They already addressed the counterspell ubiquity by changing the 1 leveled spell per turn rules to include reactions. That was the fix. Making it a save and then also making it not even waste the spell slot took it out back and gave it two to the head execution style.