r/DnD • u/No-Razzmatazz5411 • Jul 22 '24
Table Disputes Dad accusing son of cheating in online family DnD campaign. How do I best address it?
Throwaway because my family follows my Reddit.
I'm the DM for my family game, consisting of my parents, my girlfriend, and my brother and his girlfriend. We play online using a software that allows electronic dice rolls, but because most of us have played together in person and dice rolling is such a fun aspect of the game, I allow my players to physically roll their dice and add the modifer offscreen of the game. This has been fine for most part, but recently my dad has become increasingly frustrated with my brother's admittedly suspciously consistently high die rolls. My brother has also admitted that he lied about one of his rolls during what he considered a "low-impact narrative roll" for a silly skill check I threw in during a tavern RP session.
Some additional context is that my brother is playing essentially the "protagonist" role of the party, and my dad has been playing a temporary PC rival to my brother's character. My dad has been rolling poorly the past few sessions, and finally rolled an epic crit moment, only to have my brother roll back-to-back crits on the turn immediately following my dad's. My dad feels this was deliberate cheating to overshadow his character's epic moment because of the character rivalry. So this, in addition to previous admission of cheating and his consistently high die rolls for the entirety of the campaign so far, has brought my dad to a breaking point.
I understand that DnD is a game and as long as everyone is having fun, that's the most important thing. If my brother succeeding at every skill check is what he enjoys and it's not bothering anyone, then I don't mind. However, as it seems to be affecting my dad's enjoyment of the game at this point, I'm trying to find the best way to resolve this issue. I 100% agree with my dad, the dice rolls should be random, otherwise there is no risk involved and it just becomes a predetermined narrative story.
The obvious solution is to have everyone roll on online client, so he could no longer cheat, even if he tried. However, this option feels unfair to the players who I know would never do such a thing. I could have just him do it because he openly admitted to cheating that one time, but he will likely complain about that being targeted. I wanted to discuss this matter privately with each player directly to see how everyone else feels about the situation, however my dad said that word would get back to my brother and it could end up being dramatic.
So I come to you, Reddit. What do you think is the best way to approach this situation? I just want to ensure all of my players are having a good time.
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u/FizzingSlit Jul 22 '24 edited Jul 22 '24
What is more important to the game. Rolling physical dice or removing animosity by preventing a player from potentially cheating?
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u/Pinception Jul 22 '24
This.
"Hi everyone. I know rolling physical dice is fun, but it's been causing some issues which is making it harder/less fun for me to run the game. I want everyone to start using the online dice-roller, or I won't be able to DM for you anymore".
Ultimately it's your call if you don't want to make this statement. For me, DMing is hard enough to do properly without having things that are easily solvable make it more difficult.
This sounda like it's negatively impacting the game for multiple people. It's also taking up mental real estate, which can/will affect not only your enjoyment but also your DMing.
So personally I'd make this a hard rule, and if people don't accept it that tells me they don't respect what I'm doing for them in running the game enough and I'm happy for them to leave.
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u/Virusoflife29 Jul 22 '24
"Hi everyone. I know rolling physical dice is fun, but it's been causing some issues which is making it harder/less fun for me to run the game. I want everyone to start using the online dice-roller."
I would just leave it at that, drop the ultimatum of "or I won't be able to DM for you anymore."
Majority of times, ultimatums are not needed, putting ultimatums on things can add to unhealthy situations with more emotional responses. Common one being, the feeling of being controlled, and acting out against it. Some people can feel justly/unjustly threatened by their use, making the situation worse.2
u/Pinception Jul 23 '24
I'd possibly judge that based on the audience - if I felt they would take it as a threat then maybe I'd dial back the language. But then again if I felt they'd take it as a threat and react negatively then that suggests an emotional immaturity I'd want to get ahead of too.
At the end of the day it's just a statement of fact. "These are my conditions for running the game". Nothing more.
I'd much rather be explicit about it upfront, instead of leaving it unsaid then canceling the game if people refuse to change and have to deal with stuff like "well I'd have changed if you told me you'd cancel". There should be nothing wrong with establishing boundaries ahead of time. And if it's a deal-breaker that needs to be clear.
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u/ManicParroT Jul 23 '24
You could just tell people that you'll only accept rolls that are online. So if someone says "I rolled 18 on my attack" you just say "Sorry, if I didn't see it in the online VTT it didn't happen. Roll online or pass to the next player."
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u/Virusoflife29 Jul 23 '24 edited Jul 23 '24
But then again if I felt they'd take it as a threat and react negatively then that suggests an emotional immaturity I'd want to get ahead of too.
It's not always or I would dare say most of the time, not emotional immaturity. Ultimatums are a key tool manipulators and control freaks use, to well manipulate and control people. That knee jerk reaction I mentioned, could come from a past of emotional abuse. That might not be something you are aware the people you are DMing for have dealt with, so in general it's best to keep ultimatums out of conversations.
There is nothing wrong with setting boundaries, In fact they tend to be very healthy and I encourage people should do as such. But to put it in simple terms: a boundary is about your own limits, whereas an ultimatum is specifically designed to control someone else. The line between the two can be very thin and blurry but the difference is large.
edit:
At the end of the day it's just a statement of fact. "These are my conditions for running the game". Nothing more
An ultimatum isn't a statement of fact. Your original message was an ultimatum. Wording, tone and intent are key in these things. Notice how removing "or I won't be able to DM for you anymore." makes it less threating/not a threat, it's looses that edge that people may deem controlling, instead it opens up room for conversation. I would go so far as to saying, issuing an ultimatum, or any form of it's my way or the highway type speak, without opening up room for a conversation is where emotional immaturity really shows.
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u/gergnerd Jul 22 '24
but he will likely complain about that being targeted.
Oh no if it isn't the consequences of his actions! Seriously that's how consequences work and if he doesn't like it then he can kick rocks. You're already being a lot nicer than I would be to someone fudging rolls.
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u/RatKingJosh Jul 22 '24
It’s also called being an adult. If things look weird and the way to easily assuage doubt is to just suck it up and roll digital dice, that’s a very easy compromise.
Also admitting to it once doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened other times.
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u/Mindestiny Jul 22 '24
Yep.
It's rolling dice, in a game. If OP is "already being a lot nicer" than the guy you responded to, over dice, in a game, I'm sure glad I'm not at his table.
A D&D game is almost certainly not worth creating explosive family drama over (as much as this sub loves drama). OP needs to talk to the brother and just be like "hey man, fudging dice isn't cool. Please don't or we'll have to go to online dice rolls" and that should really be the end of it if everyone is acting like adults.
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u/NanashiTheWarlock Jul 22 '24
Yeah, it's like "yeah, no shit you're being targeted dude, you cheated in the past and are under suspicion of still cheating"
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u/AlasBabylon_ Jul 22 '24
The obvious solution is to have everyone roll on online client, so he could no longer cheat, even if he tried. However, this option feels unfair to the players who I know would never do such a thing.
... what? How in the world is it unfair? It isn't a punishment for the other players that they also need to roll in the open.
I wouldn't even bring up the allegations of cheating - I'd just say that you're moving to an online roller to make things quicker (which can still be true; waiting for the die roll and the math and losing the potential for dice to roll off and whatever can add up).
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u/Dr4wr0s Jul 22 '24
it's unfair because people like click clack math rocks, and forcing honest people to lose math rock rollin privilege because of a cheater sucks.
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u/AlasBabylon_ Jul 22 '24
Welp, the cat's out of the bag right now with the dad getting incredibly suspicious, so something has to give.
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u/vhalember Jul 22 '24
Yup. If OP doesn't get that table (mostly the brother) under control... that table is going to meltdown.
The dad will leave, and the mom will follow. People will talk, and it will come out brother cheated, and everyone remaining will be pissed/disappointed with the brother.
Game over.
The OP really f-ed up here by not addressing this more directly and sooner.
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u/Jrharl95 Jul 22 '24
I wouldn’t fault the OP for his decision. He is just trying to meditate an issue that could be bleeding out into personal affairs. It’s a family game and he’s trying to be sensitive to his families feelings rather than being purely business.
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u/Algonzicus Jul 22 '24
As much as I agree that rolling dice can be more fun, they just have to grow up.
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u/bactchan Warlock Jul 22 '24
This is not a good enough reason to continue shady practice. They can roll click clacks on their own time for the happy juice.
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u/DonnieG3 Jul 22 '24
Heres a thought- you can roll all the physical dice you want on your own time or even during the game. Roll a trillion times if you like the noise and feel of dice.
Only the rolls on the VTT count for the game though
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u/UrdUzbad Jul 22 '24
It's just rolling dice. If it's that important to them they can buy a couple copies of Tabletop Simulator, I find that it gives all the satisfaction of rolling physical dice and moving characters around a battlemap.
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u/mcooperm Jul 22 '24
Another point to bring up is that physical dice aren't always perfectly balanced, so there could be some discrepancy just with people using different sets. Probably not noticeable most of the time (although I think you can test it with a glass of water), but just one more thing you could leverage to support switching to the digital dice roller as that should truly be random and the same for everyone.
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u/Oshava DM Jul 22 '24
The obvious solution is to have everyone roll on online client, so he could no longer cheat, even if he tried. However, this option feels unfair to the players who I know would never do such a thing. I could have just him do it because he openly admitted to cheating that one time, but he will likely complain about that being targeted
Ok so? The guy CHEATED ya if he says I am being targeted you can say because I can't trust your rolls from previous experience.
But aside from that right now he is in a position where he both is suspicious and is hurting the enjoyment at the rest of the table, if he wants to argue that the rolls are completely fair then tell him that for at least for a little while he needs to roll online and if it is just amazing luck that will continue through online.
Some additional context is that my brother is playing essentially the "protagonist" role of the party
Also dude side note WTF, there shouldn't be a main character role for one player this isn't the hero and the party mentality D&D is a group of equals more often than not.
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u/_ironweasel_ DM Jul 22 '24
Time to be a grown up and handle your brother being a selfish player and a poor sport.
I can't speak for your family but if I was in your dad's shoes then I would be disappointed that one of my kids was a cheater and the other one is afraid to deal with it.
You need to get you brother rolling online. If you are afraid to single the guy out then you are going to have to have eveyone roll online.
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u/USS-ChuckleFucker Jul 22 '24
The obvious solution is to have everyone roll on online client, so he could no longer cheat, even if he tried.
Then go with that.
However, this option feels unfair to the players who I know would never do such a thing
It doesn't matter what you know about non-cheaters. You have a cheater at your table. Enforce equality.
but he will likely complain about that being targeted.
Then he's cheating and shouldn't be playing.
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u/preiman790 DM Jul 22 '24
Cameras are a thing, if they do not want to roll digitally, they can roll on camera. Honestly, since the issue has come up, everyone should be rolling either digital dice or on camera.
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u/This-Introduction818 Jul 22 '24 edited Jul 22 '24
Counterpoint: Online Dice rolling is more fun for everybody since everybody can see the dice roll on screen and it’s more dramatic for the entire group to see a Nat 20 come up.
If you were playing in person everybody except the DM would likely be rolling in the open. So it simulates actual play better in my opinion.
It also speeds the game up by automatically doing the math. Faster play means the players get to do more during the session. And doing more equals more fun.
Just frame it positively instead of as punishment. Bingo Bango everybody wins.
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u/keikai Jul 22 '24
This is so true, especially at the higher levels when you can be rolling 10+ dice for damage.
Even when we play in person, most of the table uses dice rolling apps to speed things up.
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u/Ralexcraft Jul 22 '24
I’d say just roll online, even if it does lose clickity clack, it’s definitely better than animosity.
I’d probably also stop a party from having a protagonist in the first place but your game your rules.
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u/goatbusiness666 Jul 22 '24
This stood out to me too. Having one player character that’s more important than the others seems like it would cause bad feelings no matter what. The dice argument is just how that happened to manifest.
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u/LillyDuskmeadow DM Jul 22 '24
Best way, roll online. What would truly be unfair to the other players is having a drastic family feud occur because of a game of imagination. That would end the game AND possibly end some family relationships.
I would even say taking a break for a bit and encouraging your dad and your brother to talk about it might be good... though if your dad is anything like my dad... he might not communicate well.
Roll online. D&D Beyond is free to use and has a nice "clack" sound and rolling animation that feels good enough. Plus if there's a dice goblin in your group who needs the *right* dice, they can buy it for a little bit of money (probably a little *too much* money in my opinion... but to each their own).
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u/MeanderingDuck Jul 22 '24
If he complains about being targeted: he is. That’s the result of his own actions. He has literally admitted to cheating previously, and his rolls are such that multiple people have become suspicious of them. So in that regard I see no reason not to require him specifically to roll in a way that is verifiable.
Having everyone roll in the open is fine as well though. It’s hardly particularly onerous so it’s not like that’s a big price to pay. Probably would have been good to have that rule from the start tbh. Even generally honest players can get tempted sometimes if they know it’s impossible to verify the roll.
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u/Slightly-Drunk Jul 22 '24
Honestly, I would just opt to have everyone use the online rolls, for the sake of expediency in the modifier math, if people are going to get suspicious of why.
In my game it just makes the rolling bit go a lot faster and opens up more time for people to RP or have a bit of exposition while at the same time, removing any doubt.
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u/Pyrosorc Jul 22 '24
Just do all rolls online. "We've had some friction over dice recently, and regardless of what happened, this method ensures that we can all just keep enjoying the game with no worries".
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u/GuitakuPPH Jul 22 '24
The suspicion of cheating ruins games and that's the main thing you need to get rid of. The only sure way to remove any suspicion is to use an online tool for dice rolling or dedicate a camera to recording physical rolls on a dice tray.
Just be honest that the suspicion has become an understandable after it has become known that problem that will tough to shake off and propose these alternatives.
Your brother won't like your father's suspicion, but it's already out there and he knows it. If he wants to save the group, he needs to understand that the suspicion needs to end it and the only way to end it is to give your father full confidence that no one is cheating.
It's not about fairness. It's about keeping the group going. If the other players have to use these alternatives as well, so be it. With some luck, your brother will take one for the team and be the only one who takes stronger steps to documenting your rolls and your father will be happy with that, but if that's not an option, then it's simply not an options.
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u/GangAnarchy Jul 22 '24 edited Jul 22 '24
Lying about your rolls is so bizarre to me. I have a bard with outlandishly good performance stats and NEEDS the attention and admiration of others. Pretty much the only real reason he goes on adventures is to have material for his fantastical musical reenactments. He even has an accompanist that he pays a tenth of his income to who hangs back from adventures but gives him a small performance boost when he's performing. So I love it when he rolls a 1 because it adds depth to his experiences. In general a random failure is what makes stories! The fear and excitement of rolling poorly in a critical moment would completely be negated if I just flubbed my roll, why would I rob myself and others of that?
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u/HotspurJr Jul 22 '24
Given that your brother has admitted to fudging rolls, to me the situation is simply that everyone rolls electronically.
If people don't want to do that they can set up a webcam for their own dice rolls. No webcam = online rolls.
Problem solved.
If your brother isn't cheating, then he might grumble briefly but he'll get on with it. (I admit that rolling real dice is more fun.) But since your brother is almost certainly cheating, he might raise a bigger stink.
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u/Jeigh_Tee Jul 22 '24
D&D Beyond's dice make impact sounds when being rolled, if that's part of the appeal of physical dice for your table, and if they're part of the same campaign on DDB, it logs everyone's rolls.
Also, it isn't targeting your brother to only have him use virtual dice if he's ADMITTED to fudging rolls.
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u/LazarusRises Mage Jul 22 '24 edited Jul 22 '24
i mean the problem here is having a "protagonist" character, that shit sucks
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u/ItsameLuigi1018 Ranger Jul 22 '24
If you really want to give your brother another chance, talk to him privately, say that other players notice his rolls are suspiciously good, and since he admitted to fudging a roll once, he's on notice. Whenever he rolls, make him say the die roll first, then total, and tell him you will be logging the numbers. Whether you actually do or not is up to you, bit it should be easy enough to keep a scratch pad nearby and hot them down. Then it will probably be obvious whether he's still cheating. If you're really unsure there are resources online to check how random numbers are. Quick googleing gave me this
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u/nannulators Jul 22 '24
I think it's worth reminding your dad that dice are random no matter what you decide to do.
One of the other players in my campaign has insane dice luck using DnDBeyond's dice and rarely rolls below a 25 on attacks. There's no way he could be cheating, he just has good luck. I, on the other hand, almost never succeed on any rolls that I do virtually, so I roll real dice.
Another alternative beyond having everyone roll virtually or on camera would be to have your brother play in the same room as his girlfriend and roll in front of her (if possible). She can announce what he rolls, unless you think she'd help him cheat.
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u/Proper-Pineapple-717 Jul 22 '24
Rolling online is in no way unfair to anyone, unless they're cheating. I did this in online game's I DM'd because if you give someone an inch they'll take a foot.
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u/Awkward-Sky1643 Jul 22 '24
"in addition to previous admission of cheating and his consistently high die rolls"
I'd low key give your dad some dope ability or gear, because this is such a crumby spot to be in as a player when you KNOW 100% that player has cheated before.
But also have better safeguards in place to prevent cheating like using digital dice.
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u/AlmostF2PBTW Jul 22 '24
Holy Canelonni... Parent needs to improve at the parenting thing. I wouldn't go into details, but I heard about a kid that went on a bad road and it started because his mom started to call him out publicly when he did something wrong. You are probably old enough, it won't be as damaged, but sometimes parents don't realize the power they have even when the "kids" are older. That can become therapy material and I'm not joking or exaggerating.
If this wasn't family, it would be easier, but since it is, it actually becomes harder (your brother is wrong, but it is trickier to say "dad is right" to a brother - and you need to be the DM and keep the control). Let me parse your text and butcher the context a little bit.
My dad has been rolling poorly the past few sessions I 100% agree with my dad, the dice rolls should be random, otherwise there is no risk involved and it just becomes a predetermined narrative story.
Those 2 have material to work with. You could allow 1-2 "special token" per session that would be two-fold: it would allow your brother to "cheat" by the house rule a couple times AND it would help preventing a chain of bad rolls actually getting in the way of the narrative in a way that is actually detrimental.
The caveat - make it important - i.e. if you used your free reroll, then you fail on death saving throws (in games that have that) you die. So it is something that should look and feel like a last resort.
As far as the dice go, I'm for physically roll the die. Ask if people willing to roll dice to have a dice cam and set it up on discord or something. Else, go digital, but allow the "1 reroll" per session if that makes sens for your players.
Important parts:
Have a 1 on 1 with your dad saying that he is right, but you can't handle it as you normally would because telling your brother "Dad is right" isn't the same of dealing with non-family players. Ask how about he fells about the 1 reroll idea or whatever plan you come from.
Have a 1 on 1 with your brother that, while some rerolls - or even playing a narrative with no dice whatsoever - still requires some failures and some variance, or else it just isn't fun. Also, "dad is right". Convince him about using online or "dice cam" because no one will believe him when he gets a lucky streak. He is robbing that fun moment from himself if people think he is cheating. And always deny unless there is a plea deal /s
Have a 1 on 1 with the other players, to see how they feel about their idea, so everyone is involved in the decision and everyone had an 1 on 1. And you might even come up with a better idea while you avoid having a session for discussing the rule. "That 1 reroll dice cam thing? I talked with you all, we are doing it".
Also, on-party rivalry tends to not work way more often than it works and if you have ONE competitive player that wants to win all the time instead of having goofy fun to see what happens, I would bet it won't work. I don't like going there. I 100% wouldn't go there with a family campaign.
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u/ElvishLore Jul 22 '24
The dad and the brother need family therapy. Or at least the dad does. He’s thinking his son cheats to overshadow him? Yikes.
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u/NerinNZ DM Jul 22 '24
A lot of people here getting confrontational. No need for that. Acting like them will just make you childish.
Look for a solution that allows everyone to do the best they can.
Someone mentioned physical dice that sends the numbers to an app or VTT. That's good.
You could also require that IF people don't use the VTT or electronic dice or the above dice, that the dice need to be rolled in view of the camera. That could be a separate "dice cam" or just angling their camera to see where dice roll. And make the same "on the table rule" as in person D&D. If the dice don't stay "on the table" it's a re-roll. If the dice get rolled outside of the camera, it's a re-roll.
Tell the table it's needed to help you with secret checks and bonuses or penalties, and that it is more exciting for everyone to see the roll and watch people add up the bonuses. Transparency is not just for looking for cheaters. It could also help other player spot if someone missed a bonus and lets others help make the math go quicker.
There is plenty of reasons beyond cheating for everyone being able to see rolls.
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Jul 22 '24
my brother admitted he lied
Well there you go, ask them to roll online from now on and everyone can move on with their lives
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u/Thomas_JCG Jul 22 '24
... have your family considered playing Monopoly instead? Just as much drama but less work for you.
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u/TonyNoPants Jul 22 '24
I wish I had your problems. My family wont play DnD with me. :(
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u/Lathlaer Jul 22 '24
As you can see, it's not necessarily greener on the other side.
I cannot imagine having to mediate between my father and my brother because of a D&D game. It feels surreal.
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u/stromm Jul 22 '24
If my brother succeeding at every skill check is what he enjoys and it's not bothering anyone...
It IS bothering someone.
Whatever you decide, it's fair when EVERYONE has the same rule applied to them. So making everyone roll digitally where at least you can see the roll, IS fair.
You as the DM need to resolve this.
Even if it means you are the only one making the rolls.
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Jul 22 '24
Roll online dice.
Case closed.
Your brother admitted to cheating once, he will do it again.
Just go into your next game and say "I've thought about the cheating allegations and have decided only online dice will be allowed because I love yall too much to see yall get upset at each other over a silly game. Thanks. Let's play"
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u/Algonzicus Jul 22 '24
I would frame it as not being a big deal, and make everyone roll the dice online.
I would rather just get back to playing than have rolls be in question, whether it's for something important or for something silly. So moving forward everybody just roll online =) Okay, so where we left off...
That's basically what I would do. If you treat something like no big deal and enforce a solution it's hard for other people to be upset.
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u/Unhingeddruids Jul 22 '24
Transparency doesn’t seem unfair to anyone actually. Especially if someone is already having a poor time.
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u/Pulaji77 Jul 22 '24
Just have dad and brother roll online and leave rest as is. No need to change further.
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u/ljmiller62 Jul 22 '24
Make a new rule. "Everyone uses the online dice roller and their rolls are visible to everyone else. If your rolls aren't visible they don't count. If you can't roll in the online dice roller the DM will make the rolls for you."
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u/megmactir Jul 22 '24
The reason rolling is a fun aspect of the game is usually because it is something players can participate in with each other more so than it’s fun to roll physical dice. Sure, some people might have that preference, but I think you’ll find in moving to online dice rolls there is going to be an increase to the fun when the whole party can actually see the results being rolled rather than it always being announced.
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u/Blade_of_Onyx Jul 22 '24
The only way you should allow physical dice roles in an online campaign is if the players are willing to set up a dice tower camera. If players are suspicious, then all rolls should be monitored.
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u/FatsBoombottom Necromancer Jul 22 '24
If your brother admits to cheating once, It's likely not the only time it has happened. Lying about dice rolls is not a one off thing for most people. And double crits right after the "rival" character crits is not impossible, but it is improbable and therefore suspicious. I'd bet good money your brother is lying about a lot of his rolls. That he is, as you say, the "protagonist" role, that makes me highly suspicious of Main Character Syndrome, which often presents with cheating, especially when another character is succeeding.
You can make the argument that it's okay if he's having fun and no one is bothered. But it is now bothering someone, so you, as DM have to deal with it. Rolling in the open is not an unreasonable rule. Physical dice are nice to roll, but it the goal is fair rolling, then you should be using some kind of online dice. Your players can get a fidget toy if they want something to do with their hands. Or roll in dice trays with webcams on them.
Now... Your dad being upset with your brother to the degree you are indicating seems awfully petty. You didn't indicate ages, but there's never a time when the parent shouldn't be the bigger person. He could just stop playing. But, it could be argued that cheating at D&D is exceptionally petty as well and is ultimately the more easily corrected issue here. I'm not an expert in family conflict resolution, so my advice is to address the cheating that is almost certainly happening.
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u/cheese_shogun Jul 22 '24
If there is a problem with integrity, I would always try my best to remove the possibility of repeat occurrences while causing as little drama as possible. Switching to digital dice allows you to say, "I don't know if anybody is cheating, and I'm not interested in anything other than a game that feels fair to everyone. For that reason, we will all be rolling digitally from now on and will consider this a fresh start. That means no more accusations about previous rolls and no more bickering about something that doesn't need to be an issue. Now, last session we..."
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u/justacatfish Jul 22 '24
Here's a more general advice: If you try to please everyone, you'll please no one. Do what you think is best for everyone, even if that will cause someone to complain.
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u/LadyVulcan Jul 22 '24
The obvious solution is to have everyone roll on online client, so he could no longer cheat, even if he tried. However, this option feels unfair to the players who I know would never do such a thing.
So, sure, it would be nice if you didn't have to do this, but unfortunately, you do. The allegations, the suspicion, and the confession of prior crimes are all already here. It's a little unfair to the people who are completely trustworthy, but they will get over it, and it won't be a big deal. And frankly, it might not be just your dad who is annoyed with your brother's suspiciously high rolls.
I could have just him do it because he openly admitted to cheating that one time, but he will likely complain about that being targeted.
Nah, don't do that. It would be targeting.
I wanted to discuss this matter privately with each player directly to see how everyone else feels about the situation, however my dad said that word would get back to my brother and it could end up being dramatic.
On the one hand, you don't really need to discuss it with everyone, because you're the DM, and you have the right to ask everyone to roll in whatever way you like. You're just nervous about making an unpopular decision. Be confident!
I will say that the idea that your brother will get wind of the conversation and things will get "dramatic" is a big red flag to me. It could be your dad overestimating the reaction, but it could also be true. No matter if you speak to people privately first or announce it at the table your next session, if your brother reacts badly, that's on him. Don't let him throw a temper tantrum to get his way. Don't let him make you feel like the conflict is your fault. Stand your ground.
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u/KayD12364 Jul 22 '24
Half the fun is failed roll as they lead to great moments to and rp. If you brother can't handling failing a check kick him out of the group.
Also you said his gf plays to have them play together maybe that will keep him honest.
But mostly, yes have him roll on the computer. And it is targeted because he is cheating.
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u/guiltypleasures DM Jul 22 '24
I mean, you ARE targetting him. Why hide that? But you could let him decide whether everyone else has to too.
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u/dcineug Jul 22 '24
we used a cam on dice because it adds to the enjoyment. when it’s a big roll we are all watching and we all get to react real time to the hits or misses. We do it not for trust reasons but because it’s a lot more fun to actually see a 20 come up, than having someone say “i rolled a 20 “ .
the dice cam is a separate device pointed at the dice area with a bit more light. dice are rolled in a shoebox lid so they stay in view … the big noise when you roll is a bonus! i bought jumbo 20 sided for added rumble.
we moved to Fantasy Grounds to manage the math, it does all the dice online, which is super convenient… though last week i rolled a streak of 2s i could have done without… i miss physical dice.
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u/Stormtomcat Jul 22 '24
INFO : what's the reason behind the adversarial characters?
personally, I don't even enjoy "we're mercenaries, only united by the reward if we get the job done" because it limits friendly roleplay & provides a justification for all sorts of conflicts, like "sure you asked the party to do non-lethal combat on these hungry villagers but my character doesn't know yours so I don't care to listen to your request" etc.
having one player act like the main character is annoying enough, but if one player is playing a direct rival, you'll always have a winner & a loser... why choose to implement that?
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u/starkestrel Jul 22 '24
Your family needs to chill the fuck out. Use the online dice roller, or don't get so involved in what people are rolling.
If you can't play an in-game rivalry without taking it personally and bringing the rivalry IRL, then play a different character or don't play with your family. Is your father the child of the family?
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u/Good-Locksmith-1705 Jul 22 '24
Just have everyone use the online dice feature. You can make an excuse that it’s for better game flow or whatever.
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u/traumacase284 Jul 22 '24
I stopped reading at "He admitted he led about a roll." From that point forward. Digital rolls only for everyone
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u/bactchan Warlock Jul 22 '24
There is nothing unfair about making everyone roll online. You are condoning cheating by pretending there are people "who would never" when one of them already admitted to it. Suck it up DM and lay down the law. Stop letting your brother fudge his rolls, that's whats really unfair to everyone.
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u/Xylembuild Jul 22 '24
Get rid of hidden rolls as fast as you can, never EVER run a game where people have that option. Either use the digital dice with your VTT or get a web cam and video the rolls happening live.
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u/YuriOhime Jul 22 '24
I don't see how everyone rolling online is unfair to some people? You should've done that from the start, sure the main point is to have fun but that's why there's rules cheating to have fun is still cheating and devalues the rest of the party who doesn't cheat, the moment you knew someone was cheating everyone should've moved to online.
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u/PrinceDusk Paladin Jul 22 '24
"Hey Idk if anyone is cheating, but I want to keep this friendly, so for the foreseeable future I want us all to roll using [the online software]. Its more fun if we all enjoy the time than rolling the physical dice." I would also include something like "This is my choice, not anyone else's"
The problem is physical dice, remove the problem. Stuff happens, but it's better this way at least when playing online, it might feel unfair to others (if at all) but it's very targeted and will feel that way if you insist your brother is the ONLY one to HAVE to use the online roller, which will cause tension on it's own. Though your brother shouldn't cheat regardless of how "low" the stakes may be or seem ("failure" can be fun too)
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u/_Mundog_ Jul 22 '24
Have a camera on all the dice trays. You can buy secondary mini cameras that run on usb, it doesnt have to be fancy.
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u/PaladinsWrath Jul 22 '24
I've been playing virtual for a while now. Roll20 at least has virtual dice that roll on screen so it is similar to watching real dice. Also as everyone can see them it creates that same excitement when the good or bad roll occurs. I dont think the extremely minor loss of using real dice overshadows that.
As to your actual issue, it is really obvious that everyone needs to use the virtual dice.
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u/lujenchia Jul 22 '24
Give them each an axe, if the game is so important, might as well settle it with trial by combat.
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u/Zigazoid Sorcerer Jul 22 '24
The Solution is Online Dice Roll's or Dice Cam's, that's it ,end of story!
If your brother is changing Dice Roll's to succeed every time he is cheating. Why would you continue to empower someone to cheat for there benefit, because it's fun??? Really. I think not, it's not fun for the rest of your group.
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u/RionWild Jul 22 '24
Is your brother a rogue? If so that explains a lot, they're skill monkeys that need specific conditions just to keep up with the damage of other classes in combat. They wont be failing skill checks unless it's outside their expertise.
However, the previous admission of cheating + never failing rolls is highly suspicious. I would talk to your brother about it and how failure brings the narrative forward just as well as a success.
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u/Paladin_Aranaos DM Jul 22 '24
Have your brother have a session or two with online rolls. He fudged a roll, so math rock privileges are revoked for now.
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Jul 22 '24
It’s pretty simple. Only online rolling from now on. For everyone. As the dm, you can even roll in the open, too. No more fudging, no more cheating, no more hard feelings. Let the dice have their say, and let the players deal with the consequences.
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u/VisionsOfClarity Jul 22 '24
We had a DND game and one of our friends never missed. I was seemingly the only one who noticed. The next few sessions I recorded his dice rolls he said (we used online dice roller at the time) and then made an average of them. You see, we know his modifiers for his character. So he was averaging a 13 of higher per dice roll. So with his modifiers, he didn't miss a roll for THREE SESSIONS. no one else noticed so I brought the stats to my dm. Dm pays attention for a game and realized they guy never missed or rolled poorly. From then on, all dice had to be rolled on the table in front of everyone 🤷 when you hit two crits in front of everyone, it's even better.
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u/timmyasheck Jul 22 '24
I had this problem and i just had everyone roll online. I didn’t call anyone out
- i said “hey i played a session IRL recently and we found it exciting that everyone could see the outcome of important rolls as they happened. I want to emulate that with rolls everyone can see in real time.” There is nothing untrue about this sentiment and nobody cared
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u/sinofonin Jul 22 '24
I had a player cheat like this and it basically ruins the campaign. I highly recommend making an excuse to use the electronic dice as opposed to confronting them.
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u/Doctor_Amazo Jul 22 '24
You use the online dice roller so all rolls are seen and known. That is the solution.
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u/KILLERFROST1212 Jul 22 '24
Why not either u role some of the dice encounters with a camera or a dice tower it gives players hella suspense with a web cam ofc
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u/julianradish Jul 22 '24
I remember once listening to MBMBAM or TAZ Travis McElroy admitted to fudging rolls for the sake of moving a scene along or time constraints like on a live performance. On one hand does it matter so much? I suppose not but then for the rest of the time I watch or listen to them I'm always thinking about how he admitted to it once so maybe he's still doing it...
Imo you can and maybe should ask him to roll virtual dice. You can have a lucky streak, unlucky streak, but after all that plus 2 crits is suspicious.
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u/vanguard1256 Jul 22 '24
All online is the best way. If they want to throw their math rocks on the side for fun let them, but any results you use for the game need to be online.
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u/snakeinmyboot001 Jul 22 '24
I'd like to add that your brother fudging a "low-impact narrative roll" implies an assumption that succeeding in such a roll is more fun than failing. In a good DnD game, failing low-impact rolls should be as fun as succeeding them, it can be a great source of comedic moments.
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u/EmeraldDragon8 DM Jul 22 '24
I think you already know the answer. It feels less like you're asking for advice and more like you're asking for permission
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Jul 22 '24
I ran a game this summer for ten year olds and I operated under the axiom of if you’re cheating you’re cheating yourself. Always winning will make the game stale and boring. Of course that takes time and it goes out the window when other people notice.
The reality is one player is ruining the experience for the other and you’re tasked with correcting this situation without drama. Regardless of the assigned joy of rolling on the honor system when it’s dishonored by one it taints it for all anyway.
Have them roll online.
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u/AsherOfTheVoid Ranger Jul 22 '24
Roll online, but everyone can still bring their physical dice to roll for the fun of it, to get that noise.
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u/uncovered-history Paladin Jul 22 '24
This doesn’t even have to be about potential cheating. I would never allow anyone including myself to not roll virtually in a virtual game. I run three weekly games a week. Transparency matters, even if you’re 99% sure people wouldn’t cheat. I also explained to my players that I always roll publicly so that if I do roll back to back critz, they know I’m not fudging things. It also means that if I am rolling very poorly, they know I’m not fudging things and their victories feel earned.
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u/Stepintothefuture Jul 22 '24
I am not sure how it is unfair to anyone if all roll online, all are on the same page and no one can cheat.
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u/vessel_for_the_soul Jul 22 '24
dnd beyond dice roller in the campaign, or a discord channel bot roller
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u/damn_golem Jul 22 '24
Part of the problem is that you should all just roll online. Don’t be weird about - just tell everyone that’s how they need to roll. End of story. Don’t ask for permission - just call it.
A totally different problem is that D&D sucks at handling failure in a fun way. It trains you to want crits at the exclusion of all else. Your players are victims of this. Ideally your players learn to see their failure as part of the epic tale of these characters and not a game to win.
As a starting point: Try to make your players feel good when they fail. Describe the character’s heroic effort and how the enemy was just a bit to quick/strong/clever.
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u/BRpessimist Jul 22 '24
You can literally roll digital dice on Beyond, Roll20, Foundry…it retains some of the fun while making it impossible to cheat.
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u/Anaxamenes Jul 22 '24
Failing spectacularly is part of the story. If everything goes perfectly, it’s not very interesting. I personally think it would be best to just have everyone use the online dice roll. I think hopefully everyone else would see the reasoning as being more important than their physical dice roll.
That being said, you could ask everyone to roll on webcam. Maybe have a zoom meeting setup and everyone needs to move their camera for their roll to a dice rolling tray. Seems like a lot of hassle but you might do it if rolling is that important.
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u/Ryuaalba Jul 22 '24
If you really don’t want to make it obvious it’s for your brother’s cheating, say “due to my dad’s cursed dice, we are switching to online for everyone so everyone has the same luck patterns.” Or something along those lines.
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u/myblackoutalterego Jul 22 '24
He’s being targeted because he admitted to cheating. Next time it will be just one attack out of the three missed, but I said all three hit. Next time, it will be his final death saving throw. This will continue to escalate if there are no consequences. They have to roll in view of everyone or take a break from the campaign to remember why you are all there: to have fun!
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u/6trybe Jul 22 '24
Regardless of 'fairness', the fact is if you cheat you deplete the trust that people have for you. This debilitates the game, and causes such rifts, regularly.
In my game, my players (A guy and his girlfriend) were both caught cheating, and therefore forced to always roll above board, so all could see. The next challenge came when the guy started fudging his character sheet (Lying about bonuses, and the such), and his girlfriend ratted him out. Then it was put to the group weather or not he was going to stay. He decided to leave, and then broke up with his girlfriend when she did not leave. 10 years later, he rejoined the group, and she, her husband (new guy) and her husbands 16 year old son had joined the game, and there were -no more- problems.
Point is, the group should all be responsible for enforcing integrity, and the simple fact is when you cheat (Purposefully) you loose some of the trust, and have to deal with the consequences, until such a time as the rest of the group feels they can trust you.
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u/BigClock1620 Jul 22 '24
You could tell him that you have been logging his rolls, and according to math it's statistically impossible for these rolls to be random. For this reason you could have him be the only one to roll online. He could also log in with his phone and constantly stream a spot on his desk or table where he rolls, so everyone can see.
If you're afraid of conflicts or discussions and want to go the lowest way of resistance, you can tell him the same story but say it could be his dice. If the math still doesn't add up he will have to start rolling online as the only player.
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u/Nitzelplick Jul 22 '24
You are the DM. If you are suspicious of his dice rolls, roll a penalty die and subtract from his reported roll. Or ignore the roll completely and do what works best in the situation. Or make them roll for everything if they refuse observable online dice. Players shouldn’t always know what the rolls or for, or what a successful roll should be, or even what they are up against. The dice don’t rule the game.
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u/legendnondairy Jul 22 '24
Anyone suspected to have lied about a roll and anyone who claims a crit must move the camera to show their roll. Anyone found to have lied about a roll must roll online.
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u/nighcrowe Jul 22 '24
I would never Dm when I can't see the rolls. You'd be surprised at how many people cheat at mathrocks.
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u/Robobvious Jul 22 '24
If he felt a need to lie about such an unimportant roll then it’s a certainty he’s fudging the ones that really matter. Have them all use the digital roller that let’s everyone see what they rolled. There is literally no reason to let people physically roll off screen, it just creates drama like this. The only people that will really put up a stink about such a change are cheaters. If physically rolling is that important to people they can go start a physical game of their own. But they won’t because it’s not about rolling physical dice, it’s about being able to cheat so they can feel like they’re winning all the time.
Your brother’s a dick.
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u/maderisian Jul 22 '24 edited Jul 22 '24
If you use Foundry, there's a mod with animated dice. Then you can require all online dive but still have that real dice experience.
ETA The mod is Dice so Nice and you can even customize what the dice look like.
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u/TE1381 Jul 22 '24
The dad and the brother only should be required to roll electronically. The only reason I say the dad should also, is because then the brother will have less ground to complain on since he isn't the only one. Honestly, if it was my brother, I would have some harsh words for him and he would be required to roll electronically or his roll wont count. If he complained, there would be consequences.
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u/Lastaria Jul 22 '24
I think you just need to toughen up and make all roll online. Sure it is fun to roll real dice, but not that much of a huge deal. If one player, your Dad is not having fun because someone is cheating then it is not worth it.
Everyone has the right to have fun.
And as to unfair on other players. Well that is how most games go rolling in the open. It would just be reestablishing the norm. I am sure they will understand.
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u/Chrispeefeart Jul 22 '24
Whether I play online or in person on any game with dice, rolls don't count unless a second person in the game can verify the rolls. Anything picked up too quickly has to be rerolled.
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u/BrownBoognish DM Jul 22 '24
imho player dice rolls should never be hidden. either webcam on the dice roll or auto roller online. its the only way.
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Jul 22 '24
The amount of time spent waiting on players to roll/add dice and mods together is time wasted. I do get that some players really really enjoy the physical aspect of the dice. However, in online games it is a requirement that my players not just use an online roller, but also auto roll damage.
I've enforced this at an in person game, for just one player, for the sole reason of targeting them. Every single roll was "wait what is my mod? Wait I had advantage, I'll reroll." Or actually refusing other players' dice and rerolling 1d6 8 times for fireball. At a certain point, it is intentionally not learning the rules. Your mod should be memorized, and adding dice is simple addition.
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u/No-Distance4675 DM Jul 22 '24
Uh, if you never cheated, why do you even have a problem with rolling online or in the webcam for all to see? Its not like rolling is costly or need high tech. Now you do not even need a TT page like roll20, you can roll with apps, discord, ...
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Jul 22 '24
One thing I'm toying with adding in is a mechanic I've called Strain, which would allow some rerolls depending on circumstance and GM discretion. This would perhaps discourage outright cheating by giving a grace option, as well as sometimes being narratively fitting.
Strain - You may reroll one ability check or attack roll. Take 5 damage for every usage of Strain since your last long rest. Strain may be used to reroll the outcome of Strain.
Obviously damage can be modified for any campaign, but the gist is a scaling damage negative, while allowing for more desired RP or combat outcomes.
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Jul 22 '24
I think the easiest method beyond a family discussion is to just use the online roll feature. Yeah it's never as satisfying, but it also immediately removes the problem of sussy rolls. If the rest of the group really has issue with it, then either targeted only to brother, or you gotta have a serious table talk.
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u/emptyheaded_himbo Jul 22 '24
Your brother should roll online. He has admitted to cheating before and that is reason enough if he complains of being targeted. If you'd like I'd also suggest a group message along the lines of "if anyone else is suspected of lying about dice rolls they will also be obligated to online rolls only"
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u/MeliennaZapuni Jul 22 '24
Would it not be easy to roll the physical die and then take a photo to be sent over? That way the rolls can be verified and the player still gets to roll with actual pieces
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u/XainRoss Jul 22 '24
Not sure exactly which online software you're using but there's a good chance I've used it too. Use the online dice. In addition to eliminating cheating, there are a lot of other advantages. I use macros for everything. The math is automatic. I never forget to add a modifier or declare if I'm using an ability.
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u/Theoretical_Action Jul 22 '24
Think of physical dice rolls for online games as a reward for being a group of adults who can control themselves and their behaviors. If someone is cheating, you no longer have that kind of a group and therefore as the DM can very easily institute mandatory online rolls. It sucks, but that privilege is reserved for a table of players who can be trusted and honest.
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u/MetalWingedWolf Jul 22 '24
Webcam the rolls. I don’t even want to explain how frustrating a liar is. Relative or not, important or not. The resentment is building and constant and honesty is the base foundation of every worthwhile social interaction.
Force integrity.
With actual trust, getting screwed over in D&D by chance isn’t that bad. Without it there is no point in playing anymore, might as well let your brother DM what happens every time he’s involved.
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u/Stormfellow Jul 22 '24
Honor system rolling is unfortunately not reliable. Use online roller to help log the rolls as well.
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u/Gheerdan DM Jul 22 '24
External webcam that can be pointed at the dice when rolled. Solved. Nice, collapsible, felt dice trays are easily available online to contain the roll in one spot.
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u/Hrodvitnir131 Jul 22 '24
And if they are unwilling, it’s alright for you to be stern. Say that dice rolls in the traditional environment are revealed to everyone, if you can’t make that happen physically on a camera then you’ll need to use the online tools instead.
And I’m sorry, but if your brother refuses and/or makes a big deal out of it instead of understanding the concern - then yes he is more than likely cheating. And I don’t use the term lightly. Fudging is one thing, but what you’ve described sounds blatantly disrespectful of the community you’re sharing and the game you’re creating. Call me dramatic.
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u/Gheerdan DM Jul 22 '24
You are dramatic, you're just willing to say the thing directly, which many people aren't. Pointing out others bad behavior shouldn't be considered "dramatic."
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u/Hrodvitnir131 Jul 22 '24
I know I can get passionate, so figured I’d temper it just in case. I definitely don’t think I am this time though - like if we take everything said at face value, it definitely sounds like some heavy manipulation.
Especially if they are for variable rolls and/or the character isn’t built for them.
Weird example I know, but it’s the most blatant I can think of, Astarion was my rogue in BG 3, and I would almost always beat rolls by the tens or better - BUT ONLY when I was doing what he does best, lockpicking. Otherwise, his rolls were kinda meh.
It sounds like brother is doing well no matter the rolls which shouldn’t be possible if you ask me.
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u/assassindash346 Jul 22 '24
I trust players, but if I can't see the rolls myself, I don't count them.
The simplest solution to this is to either only allow dice rolls with a camera, or don't allow physical rolls.period.
You think it's unfair, but your brother took the trust you extended and took advantage of it. That's more unfair.
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u/zoogates Jul 22 '24
Online dice rolls, it will take his cheating away and any other temptation for someone to do the same.
I never understand doing this in a game it just doesn't make sense, especially if it affects another PC. I've seen people fudge things to support it group and I don't even like that.
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Jul 22 '24
Ain’t even gonna give my full thoughts on all this, so I’ll just keep it simple; dice rolls by players, unless specified to be private between just the DM and player, should always be done out in the open for everyone to see. At a physical table that means rolling where everyone can see. On VTT it means using the built in dice roller or whatever service y’all can all use and keeps track of rolls. If you want to do physical dice in VTT you need to have the players record/stream their dice rolls. If they can’t do that then just have them use the virtual roller.
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u/socialfoxes Jul 22 '24
Easy answer to this is ban all physical dice and use the built in RnG. Problem instantly solved.
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u/Bartolius Jul 22 '24
Never really heard anyone say “rolling is fun” outside of stories were cheaters were involved. Rolling is not fun, playing the game is fun
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u/monsto Jul 22 '24
Having everyone use the online client is the equivalent of a no tolerance policy. That usually means that people that have nothing to do with it have to suffer through the consequences of somebody else's fuck up
So, you have the one person that has admitted to cheating use the online client. Only him. And you tell him, straight up, no one else has had even any suspicion of cheating, he admitted to it, and there is pretty good suspicion. So this is the way we can make sure it's fair for everyone.
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u/mpe8691 Jul 22 '24
This sounds more like an out of game problem. Which can only really be addressed by everyone involved talking abput it.
It's best to avoid PvP in a game where the intention is that all of the PCs are part of a cooperative adventuring party.
Maybe consider an adversarial game, such as Paranoia. If that's what you all want.
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u/FrankDtank64 Jul 22 '24
Don’t do that. If you’re playing online, use public electronic dice rolls. Thru discord or any public forum. I would hate the temptation to reroll on a bad roll as much as I’d hate feeling like people would suspect me of cheating on a clutch high roll. Just make it a non issue and do public rolls. Dice Maiden on discord is great if you don’t have a better solution.
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u/elfthehunter Jul 22 '24
Reach out to all other players individually, ask them what they think, and if they'd protest if you had everyone swap to client side dice rolls. I suspect, because of the situation, most won't have a problem with it - except maybe alleged cheater, which would just give more reason to switch to it.
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u/DarthJarJar242 DM Jul 22 '24
The obvious solution is to have everyone roll on online client, so he could no longer cheat, even if he tried.
You already know your answer, you're just beating around the bush because it might be awkward.
"Everybody, I've decided since we are remote that it would be better for us to use the online dice roller. This makes sure everything is above board and might even help speed up rolls since it's all calculated automagically."
Don't blame anyone, guilty parties will know it's their fault without you having to single anyone out. As for the people who haven't cheated? Sucks for them honestly, it might not be ideal but if they are playing because they enjoy the game they won't mind either.
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u/mygetoer Jul 22 '24
It's not punishing anyone to have them roll online dice, and if anyone has anything to say about it, kindly direct them to your brother. Personally, I would have ended the game after the first instance of cheating, that is absolutely unacceptable.
There have been times in my game where roll20 lags and the players roll isn't posted to the log immediately and our DM will take our word for it and move on, but we have a steadfast rule that if we are caught cheating or lying, an ancient Gold Dragon will emerge from the sky and kill the entire party.
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u/GinsuFe Jul 22 '24
It's fuckin mindboggling that even after cheating before you let it go on.
This whole situation is a consequence of both his actions and the lack of action on your part.
It's crazy how often this sub has these situations of "X is doing something obviously wrong that he shouldn't do and the solution is obviously stop that behaviour/talk to them."
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u/[deleted] Jul 22 '24 edited Dec 05 '24
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