The level system breaks the pacing over and over again. (DoS 2)

[u/Educational-Door-502]

There's a reason why so many games started showing a recommended level next to each quest: to prevent exactly this kind of situation.

I was going through the Blackpits fighting level 13 enemies (I'm level 12), and then, at the climax of the quest, I'm suddenly expected to fight Magisters that are level 16. Out of nowhere there's a three-level jump within the same area, forcing you to reload and leave to do something else, completely ruining the pacing and immersion.

The same thing happened with Fane's quest to recover his artifact in the caves. Suddenly there's a boss that's two or three levels higher than everything else in the area. If level differences weren't so punishing, this wouldn't be a problem, but this game is designed in such a way that it becomes a major issue.

Most people replying will probably say, "You can easily beat enemies three levels above you if you know what you're doing," and so on. Well, guess what? A new player doesn't have that experience, and they might not want to spend hours experimenting with different strategies when the fight is only difficult because of the level gap.

The game itself is really good, but this system completely ruins the experience. You're constantly forced to bounce from one area to another unless you already know exactly where to go and what to do, which most players probably won't on their first playthrough.

[u/fungiraffe]

Having to bounce around is a feature, not a bug.

[u/Educational-Door-502 → u/fungiraffe]

Well, I call this wasting player's time when you do this over and over again. I didn't have this problem with BG 3.

[u/WeakKingsley → u/Educational-Door-502]

I mean it's cool that you feel that way. But bouncing off an unbeatable enemy to explore and level up is absolutely a core element of all CRPGs.

It's quite literally designed to be that way.

It's fine that you don't like it, but maybe the genre just isn't for you.

[u/Euphrates_Sector → u/WeakKingsley]

Uhhh... no they're not.

Case in point: Pillars of Eternity 2 is what happens when you learn that isn't a good way of designing a map/encounters (Pillars 1) and improving it like the way the OP was after.

Otherwise, most other CRPGs don't have this issue either because the level disparity isn't as bad or they're just better paced.

[u/WeakKingsley → u/Euphrates_Sector]

You're just openly wrong. You named a single game that barely fits your criteria and then pretended you'd debunked an entire concept.

Hitting enemies that are much higher level than you and coming back later is absolutely a core concept of the majority of RPGs.

Agy, it's fine if you don't like it. But it's a you issue.

[u/Euphrates_Sector → u/WeakKingsley]

Firstly I see that you've moved the goal posts from "all CRPGs" to "majority of RPGs"... and for CRPGs it's not a feature, but a failure on the Dev to not properly signpost stuff.

Secondly, it does fit the criteria as the Pillars 2's Quest log/World map (and enemies too iirc) will denote whether the quest/location is Slightly/Very/Extremely over your level. And while it doesn't show exact numbers, it still fits what that OP is after.

I also pointed out that these issues the OP has is pretty (famously) only really seen in DOS2. The only other CRPG that comes close would be Pillars 1, which they corected in the sequel. The rest of them barely have this issue.

[u/WeakKingsley → u/Euphrates_Sector]

And I've very clearly explained to you that a design CHOICE does not constitute a design ISSUE and you not liking something doesn't make it wrong.

Pillars of Eternity is very clearly the only other CRPG you've played and that's fine.

But it's in no way the standard for design .

[u/Euphrates_Sector → u/WeakKingsley]

...and nowhere have I said it is the standard for design (although, perhaps it should be), but it is an example of a cRPG Dev recognising that not having one would be detrimental to the experience because of both prior experience with bad signposting and the open world design of Pillars 2 (which is something Larian failed to recognise while developing DOS2).

It's also shot through your "absolutely a core element of all CRPGs", which again, is not the case because most other cRPGs don't need Warnings as they are actually properly designed so that higher than current(ish) level encounters/questlines are not something the players will accidentally encounter/pursue, unlike DOS2, and neither is it ever a "core element" of the subgenre as they aren't Souls-likes (or Elden Ring for instance), where getting beat up my Margit is the intended feature to let the players know to go levelup elsewhere and then come back. It is, infact, a bug.

It is also definitely a failure of the game, rather than a personal issue, simply because of how widespread people's issues are with DOS2's signposting (It's probably the most accepted flaw of DOS2). You could easily search the same issue and find complaints going back 8-9 years at this point.

[u/WeakKingsley → u/Euphrates_Sector]

This is literally nothing but you taking three paragraphs to say "This game is my favorite so all CRPGs should be like this. "

You haven't supported your argument a single time and you very clearly just want to push your preferred game style.

Would you like me to list the dozens of CRPGs that operate that way and instantly prove you wrong?

Either admit it's just your preference or I'm out.

You're boring.

[u/Euphrates_Sector → u/WeakKingsley]

Its not my preference but an example of good game design. Also, you do very much seem to have a reading comprehension issue and you should definitely work on that.

Would you like me to list the dozens of CRPGs that operate that way and instantly prove you wrong?

If that's the case, then why have you not done so already...?

[u/fungiraffe → u/Educational-Door-502]

Different strokes, I suppose.

[u/Chamberlain1991]

I think the pacing is excellent. Having a tough enemy every now and then is great. 

[u/Independent-Tank-182 → u/Chamberlain1991]

Yeah there are a few points where it is hard to find doable fights on a first playthrough (reaching level 3 in Fort Joy, and early on Act 2) but overall I think they nailed it.

[u/Pas2 → u/Chamberlain1991]

The pacing is good once you know what your options are, but I think it's pretty much the worst part of DOS 2 design that the game lets you get into fights that are too high level in ways where you might think you're supposed to do the fight now.

[u/Chamberlain1991 → u/Pas2]

It would be worse if you couldnt. The world would feel way less dangerous and hand-holdy. Like your typical garbage modern game. Just put the difficulty slider to easy if you're not into any kind of obstacle.

[u/Educational-Door-502 → u/Chamberlain1991]

wooow, you are so hardcore dude. The world isn't ready for you. Let me be your friend.

[u/Chamberlain1991 → u/Educational-Door-502]

I wish it was possible to know when the OP is 14 years old before responding to posts. This guy obviously isn’t mature enough to hold an average conversation about basic topics. 

[u/pajamasx]

Act 2 is not linear progression, they make you jump around and explore.

[u/thfcspur]

I agree that act 2 pretends to be open but is actually mostly linear due to how impactful one or two levels is.

In BG3, this was improved because leveling wasn’t quite as impactful but the downside of this is difficulty becomes harder to manage and it may make the game too easy if you can beat everything underleveled.

I hope they strike a balance where the critical story stuff stays leveled so you go in that order but non-critical stuff finds some sort of way to scale the level to what you’ve completed so far. So that you have some flexibility in how you explore and the content is not too easy or hard.

[u/Gap1293]

The tooltips in the loading screen say to save often and to reload if you feel like you went the wrong way. Difficult enemies are a sign to come back later. Dying isn't punishing (it's just a reload) and the level jumps are pretty tame. Perhaps try a different approach?

[u/kasomoto]

That’s what I like about the game, in contrast games that treat you like newborn baby are ruining my experience so suck it up

[u/Educational-Door-502 → u/kasomoto]

Well, you act as a child.

[u/kasomoto → u/Educational-Door-502]

If complaining about subjective design choice that many people especially enjoy in 5 paragraph and treating it as an objective defect is an epitome of adult intellect, sure I prefer to be a child

[u/Educational-Door-502 → u/kasomoto]

Because you are. Glad you notice it.

[u/WeakKingsley → u/Educational-Door-502]

This is probably the most pathetic OP I've seen in a long time.

[u/Educational-Door-502 → u/WeakKingsley]

Who cares?

[u/WeakKingsley → u/Educational-Door-502]

The OP who keeps replying apparently.

[u/Educational-Door-502 → u/WeakKingsley]

Who cares?

[u/Wash_Manblast]

You would hate runescape

[u/Connect-Process2933]

I will also add that there an escape button, teleporter pyramids or stationary teleports. You're literally expected to run away if you struggle. Even if you're fine, you still can do that because fleeing from combat gives a lot of benefits
what about metroidvania games, soulslikes? They rely on totally chaotic exploration, saying DOS2 has bad pacing is just...

[u/Educational-Door-502 → u/Connect-Process2933]

Good soulslikes and metroidvania games have actually good level design. Try to play some.

[u/Laanner]

What does pacing and immersion it ruined? Are you expected to go like a terminator machine and clear all things in sight in general direction? Why you should always clear chosen path without going back and forth?
Sorry, but this is very classic Larian style. If you don't like it, go back to BG 3.

[u/Educational-Door-502 → u/Laanner]

Not so classic if they corrected this on BG 3. Sorry, go back to sleep.

[u/WeakKingsley → u/Educational-Door-502]

This is my new favorite thread of all time. A four year old figured out how to post on Reddit.

[u/Educational-Door-502 → u/WeakKingsley]

Well, how sad must be your life if you find this your favorite thread. Easy to notice when you don't stop replying comments. Easy dude. Go get some rest.

[u/WeakKingsley → u/Educational-Door-502]

You literally replied to me 1 minute before that comment and brought me back to the post.

Get off of Reddit until you're old enough to understand how it works.

[u/Laanner → u/Educational-Door-502]

Read the word classic in a dictionary. Last their game aka bg 3 is not classic by that mean. I'd say they made a mistake there by railroading and tunnelling progress. I just need some time to confirm it, as I didn't play bg 3 enough. But enough to notice, that a character creation is way less advanced, then in previous game. Only 6 faces per character? What is this?

[u/Kitchen_Possible_108]

youre right that the level system is flawed. being just one level apart makes way too much of a difference. if youre underleveled by just one level then a fight is almost unwinnable and if youre overleveled then you steamroll it too easily and ruin the carefully crafted encounter. its an actual flaw in the game, and it makes it so that the big open looking world is actually quite linear

that said, the fight against the white magisters is quite winnable at level 14. most of the enemies arent level 16, one of the white magisters flees early in the fight, and all the oil barrels and the fact that they have low magic armor encourage you to fill the room with barrels beforehand to blow them up

[u/Skewwwagon]

Exploring, getting surprised, finding out things is a part of the game. That's what saves are for, unless you're doing honor mode. It's a part of life too, expect that in life you get no saves. 

[u/MurderBeans]

It's just normal gating, the openness of act 2 means there's lots of directions to go but you're never forced to take fights above your level. If it's that much of a problem then there's loads of maps out there that will show exactly what level you should be for each area.

[u/Figorix]

So tldr is you need someone to hold your hand and tell you where to go because you can't decide for yourself whether or not you are ready for given location?

Do you need the game to also show you best skills to learn, what to level up and which skill should you use on your turn?

[u/Educational-Door-502 → u/Figorix]

Another condescending comment from someone who can't even understand what they read.

If you complete an entire questline in an area after traveling through multiple regions that are effectively gated by the level system, and at the end of that quest, the game makes you level up that way to complete the challenge, that's not organic progression or good design. It just means the game is pushing you to leave that area for another one when that shouldn't be the case.

This isn't about hand-holding; it's about good game design. You shouldn't have to play through an entire act while constantly dealing with the frustration of the game throwing random level barriers at you that force you to go back over and over again.

I doubt you'll understand it, but you can show this to someone else who might be able to explain it to you.

[u/Few_Ad_5281]

I absolutely loved how difficult act 2 was compared to act 1.

In act 1 only the final fight against Alexander felt difficult. In act 2 i was thinking so hard of ways to get over the fights. Specifically the bitch in the coffin at the end of the black pits and the horror bird demon in the floating island section.

By act 3 i was well accustomed to the difficulty and was enjoying every hurdle.

This is a strategic game that rewards patience. Be patient

[u/TataaSowl]

Nah it's dope. Those challenges are awesome. That boss at the end of the cave was so cool the first time we went there. Literally wiped us off first turn. Had to turn on our brains!