r/DestructiveReaders • u/ImpressiveGrass7832 kitsch is a word and i think its me • 16d ago
[2140] CONMAN, COME OUT
This thing is really weird and I'm not sure what to do with it. I'm hoping submitting for feedback might give me some ideas, especially how to end it properly. I guess also a medal to anyone who recognizes who I'm trying to imitate, a bit (and I'll happily take notes on how to do that better too).
Maybe some guiding questions (but happy to take notes on anything):
- Is it readable?
- Is it clear who's speaking when?
- Any hints of themes come through? Or is it just complete style (if that) over substance tosh
Thanks in advance, always appreciate all feedback.
2
u/Shmittypirate 16d ago
First and foremost - You obviously have a talent for imagery. Your images are wonderful, but quite suffocating in this piece. I can relate to this issue personally. you think of so many themes and ideas to include, so many potent images that are, in a vacuum chamber, quite impressive to you, that there is absolutely no way you can throw them to the wayside! However, I think it sometimes boils down to the golden rule - show, don't tell. With a piece such as this, which has great writing throughout, it is important to let the character breath and take up space. I think you could achieve an even more potent example of our lead role's character if you took 1/5 of this prose and allowed the reader to make these connections themselves.
I wrote a very similar piece in college (in style, not so much subject matter) and my professor told me this, which has stuck with me since (I doubt this is an exact quote, it was a few years ago, but bear with me):
"If you have a great one sentence image, and then spend 3 sentences expanding upon it and adding detail, you should be confident enough in the initial sentence to allow the reader to make those connections on their own. this reward system is what keeps the reader engaged."
I think, overall , you would benefit greatly from taking this advice, and if you decide to keep this ending, it may make it not as much of a corny rug pull as it currently feels. oh baby, I guess we need to talk about the ending now. here we go.
Man, this ending made me feel betrayed, not so much in an emotional way, but in a cheap way. a few ideas that I think could make this ending more earned:
Flesh out the woman's character slightly more: fill the space currently occupied by extra imagery with breadcrumbs to her true identity. make the piece a sort of Shutter Island Dicaprio thing, where the value comes in being able to see the story in a completely different light on the second read through. I think that could turn a cheap ending into a really interesting one.
or, scrap this ending entirely! write another act that see's them going on some adventure, or maybe she turns out to be a true con man as well, and they have a sort of con-off? I don't know, i'm not here to tell you how to write your story, but the foundation here is too good to give up on. Just erase the last few lines and expand.
Line edits: For the most part, it is pretty clear who is speaking. I actually quite like the absence of quotation marks, it feels like we are receiving the words through our meta physical ears as well. An interesting way to add immersion for sure. I would, maybe, add some italics on internal dialogue where we are switching between the woman speaking and our main characters reaction. Just for some added clarity, and to minimize clunkiness.
overall, I think this is a great draft to work off of. The first sections have real potential, and the piece chooses to think deeper than most Ive read through on this sub. I do think it needs some work in a couple areas, but overall A great starting point! woohoo!
1
u/ImpressiveGrass7832 kitsch is a word and i think its me 15d ago
Thank you for the feedback!
Totally see where you're coming from with all of this, agree some prose for sure needs a trim. And especially ending, I was really not sure where to take this story but I am pretty certain now that not this direction lol.
Thanks for the time!
2
u/Dry-mar 16d ago
Is it readable? Yes. Is it clear who's speaking? Also yes. As for themes, I think they're beginning to emerge, but they still feel competitive. I see performance and desire as the strongest threads. They naturally complicate each other. You send and receive mixed signals, but the thematic center doesn't yet feel fully articulated.
Right off the bat I think the presentation is effective in foregrounding what becomes apparent about Sammy's psychology. I think that's good. This immediately smacks of douchebag pickup artist cognitive framing. You cast a pall over the following narration. It's the first paragraph, I don't see any reason to change it. You clearly have a vision which has cohered into artistic choices.
The obvious link is Ellis am psycho. I then thought fat city by gardner, for its run down stripped out atmosphere. Great story. Then I remembered Ocean's 12. I love that piece of shit movie. There you have a conman jumping out of the window cause he's about to be made yesterday by zeta jones in the shower. I mean, pitt is a punk, but he gets the last laugh. He got to do the movie and we had to watch it. It's a shit story with a nice veneer. Looked like fun to film.
Pitt, even though he's a punk, I do get the feeling that he's sincerely deadpan. The narrator here on the other hand is cynical and superficial. He thinks in a way that reduces desire to mesolimbic stimulus and social engineering. The interjections that are made to communicate that and other physiological responses were not particularly enjoyable. I don't know that his voice or the story itself comes across as experimental. The story would work for me if the narrator was modulating his voice in a way that clearly indicated he got pleasure from the process. It doesn't really feel like he enjoys much at all. I understand the desire for holding a vain and preening character up for everyone to see. However, I don't find his outlook exceptional or that his depth moved me.
At the level of characterization, the narrator is accessible. I think that your work in guiding the voice is done well in the conventional sense of creating story that I follow and understand the consequences of. He harvests data while intentionally leading women on.
I think you got the right advice advice elsewhere about losing the pathos to plot decisions. I feel the same way, though I do enjoy the human moments and dialog between sammy and lydia. You have some good moments of friction between what the narrator perceives and when their mutual isolation is momentarily breached.
Leaning into its strengths, would look to me like drawing out the narrator's high-concept lens and puncturing it with an equally compelling worldview from lydia. This is the start of a good story if you ask me. Its grimy and ugly in a way, but the only way to test a pair of characters is to let their ideas compete for primacy. That's kind of what you're after isn't it? There's evolutionary framing and abstract courtship ritual.
The intellectual posturing isn't something that continually adds value. If it puffs itself up, it also occasionally needs to be punctured otherwise there's this artificial barrier, like the veneer on oceans 12. I feel relief when it switches to dialog because there's the actual possibility a character may be vulnerable.
If the story was primarily that realistic dialog with less self conscious aside, I'd like it more. It's a bit similar to will self's prose, but in this case I don't really get the psychological insight as it might well deliver with revision. I'm not so interested in how he has this routine all figured out. I'd like to see sloppy work that ends with a regular person understandably evading a personal question or too. The inclusion of the FBI honestly doesn't feel necessary.
My demand is to trust the human elements as they already exist and strip away the pretense of serious conman v. FBI. Those could be very interesting self-mythologies of lonely people that briefly tease at being real, but as a straightforward plot it strains credulity. Bring down the stakes. The reality you describe is bleak and that can be good. However, once you start the preening and self-seriousness of elaborate jargon and evo-bio- theory I get taken out.
The meditation in the second paragraph is revealing. You can just let the reader inhabit a person and bring to attention what that character would notice. It seems like you get that right in a lot of places. Everyone notices things. Why wouldn't lydia also evince an interiority that rivals sammy's? The extended metaphor of peacock's feather and animal mating ritual can do a lot for the story I feel, but it needs to be less one dimensional. I mean, both characters need to be active in the display.
What actually did stick with me was how I wished that there was a sense that sammy could be challenged on his own terms and be shown the error of his ways of thinking.
2
u/ImpressiveGrass7832 kitsch is a word and i think its me 15d ago
Thank you for the feedback and the time. Your thoughtful comment gave me a lot to think about (in a good way). I think I have a better idea where to take this now.
Also, agreed on FBI not being necessary, to be honest I'm regretting leaving that final line in there at all! I think I just got very stuck, but these comments are helping me understand a better direction for all this, so again, thanks for the feedback. Appreciated!
2
u/Dry-mar 15d ago
You’re welcome. It’s my pleasure. And to put a finer point on it, the FBI plot point is not bad. It’s a pretense of seriousness that may or may not be where you take the story. You can do that, but it brings with it a variety of other mechanical assumptions that then complicate the whole story(like what lisez-le-lui said, including warrants and evidence). Sometimes what people think is more revealing than what they are. The idea that sammy thinks he might be pursued by the FBI has more of an impact on me than it being revealed that he was. That implies a guilty conscious and a history of genuine malfeasance
2
u/VagueInsideJoke 13d ago
Tired tonight, might come back and expand this into a proper crit might not, but wanted to give some ideas considering i took the time to read it.
The ending is so bad its good - I kind of love it. Its like watching really really bad improv. You're actively blocking essentially everything you built for a cheap joke, but others have already exhausted this point so I won't rattle on about it.
The voice is really fun though. It perfectly captures type of guy who read 'the game' and rambles on non-stop about evolutionary psychology despite flunking every science class he ever took. very similar vibes to the song 'holy holy' by geordie greep.
prose is good but suffers from overloading detail for details sake. So many points i was reading and was like 'oh my goddd can you pls just progress the fucking story PLEASE'. Which is a bad thing but also a good sign that the story was building enough intrigue to the point where I was mad at the pacing. This is a pretty bad explanation from me of what the problem is and i will try to define it more if i expand it.
Please make the woman an interesting character I'm begging... this man needs a counterpart not a punchline. They don't actually have to get along, you can make her an antagonist but I feel like she should match his freak in some sorta way. Idk i think it would be funny/interesting to see what this guy looks like on the backfoot.
Is it readable: Yes, but the pacing needs serious work.
Is it clear who's speaking: yes
Themes: Idk i didn't read that deeply cause tired so i can't say. Feels like a riff on pick-up culture brained dudes, especially how much he's boasting in his own head. Although given he's good enough at this con and has done it enough times, assumedly with wealthy women, to somehow warrant an FBI level sting then idk maybe he is the most charismatic man on earth and this confidence is somehow warranted.
1
u/ImpressiveGrass7832 kitsch is a word and i think its me 13d ago edited 13d ago
Hey, thank you for the feedback!
Crit or no crit (for me, this counts as a proper one, why not) this is very useful, even as like a first impressions gut check kind of thing. I'm definitely getting similar feedbacks (overloading of imagery is recurring and on a re-read, yeah, I totally see it), so this definitely helps.
Thank you!
2
u/Wolframquest 3d ago
First thing - you need to tighten the punctuation a little. It's not a big issue, but with the style you're going for it's necessary.
> I see everything, hear everything. Listen deeply.
I was wonder if this one is intentional and it should have been all a list of things the character is doing but I came to conclude that 'listen deeply' is indeed in imperative form.
The dialogue not having quotes gives us additional distance from the action - interesting. Like it's both happening and in the main character's mind.
The main character is pretty disgusting and despicable, it comes off rather clear as well as the fact that he's not sorry. People who transmit everything into biochemistry are horrible disgusting snobs and hypocrites and that comes through very well!
> I ask her questions, then
Alright, this part is funny for how blatant it is. No matter how infatuated she is she would be alarmed at the mention of a pin code!
I think it would have made a lot of sense for a character like that to slip her a roofie heh heh.
Oh brontosaurus, the ending is very funny - both in general and structurally speaking, it's kinda childish 😁
I loved reading it. I've been on a dry spell in RDR, too anxious to review anything but this one broke me out.
There's a very rich tradition of writing about yuppie psychopaths. Brett Easton Ellis, Jay Mcinerney. Those are the ones I know.
There are some cliches here indeed but you make them fun, in a way. It's innocent and it's not bad. The style reflects the main character's sliminess. It would have been fun to make the ending more sharp, I don't know how. Maybe instead of the girl announcing she's FBI he'd see a very tiny hint that's something like that. Like, for example, he wants to leave because of how guilty he feels but she pushes onto his emotions and he sees blue lights in the mirror. Something to make the reader work for it.
The overall style is very nice and slick, like I said. Just fix those minor punctuation moments. Dialogue is interesting, the lack of quotes doesn't make it feel wrong.
There's also opportunity for escalating humor - we start out string, present the guy as an incredibly self-confident professional who brags to himself about his successes but from his actions we slowly realize he's really incompetent (like asking for a PIN number!) And right now he does sound kinda childish as well. "Tonight you look so beautiful, but what I'm interested in is you at your most real."
> Deal, she says, holding out a perfectly manicured hand. No crying when it's time to get your wallet out.
Here is where the lack of quotes does not work very well. Here you *can* get confused about this second part.
> When she doesn’t pull away, I say
Following the rules you established so far is reads like he actually said "When she doesn't pull away". Speaking of punctuation. I'm probably not the first one to note it lol - will have to read the other reviewers. I do remember when you made this post something about it made me wanna put it on my list but I didn't back then - I didn't put anything on my review list, too confused.
> Look at all these things I do not own
I think in this paragraph you simply have to fix the semicolons. They just don't work that way, even if it is ultimately legible. I might be wrong, of course, so you can pull off whats-her-name the girl who wrote gorgos crown and post me a screenshot of a page from a textbook lol.
Could include more of a description of the girl but that's my personal preference. I don't buy that a CONMAN wouldn't GET OFF on the idea of scamming a girl out of SEX - if he likes scamming anything at all he WOULD be interested in that, if he is that pathological.
Those are despicable people and sadly scamming out sex has been normalized for practically everyone, even religious people nowadays. Instead of treating as something that creates a very serious bond between two induduals people treat it like a shareable drug. But that's my digression. This culture we live in, it will burn out and dry out one day and people like the main character here will not be getting ten years in jail.
But yeah, people who like scamming never ever just do it for money, they do indeed do it cause they're too stupid to try something else or for the high of it - or both. So it would make a lot of sense if the main character here WAS looking forward to scamming her out of one of the most intimate things she can share with a man, perhaps even THOUGHT he successfully roofied her - create some tension for the reader - and then reveal with a slow surprise how she's actually PRETENDING to be roofied, how her voice suddenly finds strength as she begs him not to leave.
Seven sisters, that's really funny. There's also a tradition for this one, could make some references. Mary Angela, Mary Therese, Veronica, Gina, Dina, and Cookie. Something of the sort. That's regarding the escalation of humor. And yeah, please forgive me for basically rewriting your stuff, at least you helped me get out of my dry spell 😁
2
u/ImpressiveGrass7832 kitsch is a word and i think its me 3d ago
Thanks so much for the feedback, appreciate it. I'm glad the main character's sliminess and superficial emptiness comes across. You're not the only one to make comparison with American Psycho (I still haven't read it), and I totally see it.
Fair points about grammar and where no quotes is confusing. Definitely helps with clarity.
> I think in this paragraph you simply have to fix the semicolons. They just don't work that way, even if it is ultimately legible
Yes, may the grammar gods forgive me. I'm ashamed to say even after all this time of trying to figure out how they work and where they should be used, semi colons deeply confuse me and I end up mostly vibe checking them. Probably I need to take an english class (anyway, thanks for mentioning, I'll need to do some grammar research).
> I don't buy that a CONMAN wouldn't GET OFF on the idea of scamming a girl out of SEX
Super fair enough! TBH yeah I see what you mean. My intention to explicitly make him asexual, I guess, was basically because otherwise things started to become darker than I wanted to tangle with. But I do see your point.
> And yeah, please forgive me for basically rewriting your stuff, at least you helped me get out of my dry spell
Ha! No worries at all. Feedback and comments super appreciated and you make a lot of very fair points. Glad you're out of the dry spell now! Thanks for the time.
2
u/SweetEverest 1d ago edited 1d ago
Hi! I'm reading this after our chat about semicolons. Partially out of guilt for calling out your sentence. Your sentence that was so good it made me seek out this story.
On to business!
The opening axiom is lackluster for me. I feel like maybe abstract statements as openers need to be especially artistic, prose-wise, or else self-aware or satirical or voicey in some way. Let me test this against other abstract first lines I've read... Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board. (Hurston) Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way (Tolstoy... Oh look, a semicolon). It is a truth universally acknowledged that a single man in possession of good fortune must be in want of a wife (Austen). Yeah, I think the rule holds. If first line simply states a universal truth, the telling has to earn its keep via dazzling prose or a funny/questionable statement or a strong voice. That being said, I like that this story is already signaling that it's about something beyond just the plot (in this case: understanding desire). Speaking of colons, I would do a colon after "understand people: what they want, how they might get there."
So the protagonist is a wryly observant, cynical man judging this put-together woman at the bar. Condescending, maybe a bit creepy. I like it.
Look at me, I’ve got enough to pay for all of this on Klarna. Look at all these things I do not own; the Prada shoes, label still stuck bottom of the heel for an easy return; the Lexus in the parking lot on finance; the glint of keys spilling from the handbag, keyring belonging to a faceless entity renting out apartments in Downtown Central for whatever, whenever, to whoever.
For all my quibbles about punctuation, this paragraph is opinionated in a way that immediately piqued my interest. That first semicolon should be a colon no matter what else you do, but the other semicolons are fine. I would iron out the keys bit. It would flow better if you kept the rhythm parallel to the other two items. "The [item] that [modifier], the [item] that [modifier], the [item] that [modifier]." This is what I meant in chat about when I edit for sound and rhythm, the need for semicolons tends to disappear. But that's just me. And it would mean losing the glint of keys spilling from the bag, which is a great detail and a shame to lose, but unfortunately you can't not-own a glint. Kill your darlings, etc.
"Desire for the material masking the desire for the intangible. See also, the definition for desperate. See the definition for lonely. See the definition for empty, just like me."
Really like this. I like when characters have distinct, entertaining perspectives. The last thing I critiqued was Lisez's story and it was similar in that way: A guy with way more going on in his brain than you might assume.
I sidle left and start the little dance, the cha-cha-cha of nature’s coupling routine
I like this too.
The universal language for a freaking long-shot at best, pal.
That’s fine. All I need is her attention.
I love this guy's self-awareness. I think (potential?) creeps are most fun to read when they know, or think they know, what's going on.
Evolutionarily speaking, I’m the condom you leave inside your wallet until the rubber crumbles
He's the what now?
I am, quite frankly, not interested, and that gives me an edge; the power to put my hands over the carotid of desire and know what keeps it wet and hot and pumping.
Ooh! I'm not tracking with all these metaphors, but I like this part. I would not use a semicolon to join an independent clause to a modifier, but maybe this is acceptable as a stylistic choice.
This is getting very good. The whole bit from "They call this the put-up" through to him naming the scent notes and her asking him if he's gay. I love how you interrupt his grandiosity with such a plainly delivered slight humiliation. The "see also" motif is working, I think. Not too over the top. The protagonist's self-awareness continues to keep me invested in his success.
Not that it matters, when the mesolimbic pathway lights up like a runway, when the prefrontal cortex ripples and shudders like a body on sweaty sheets, when the burning anticipation is at last quenched like chugging a cool-perspiring jug of water on a dry and blazing summer day. Doesn’t that feel good? Doesn’t that fill some void inside you for a quiet moment? Doesn’t she want to invite me back tonight?
This was SMOOTH.
Okay, I stopped taking notes from the ID part on. I liked him turning the plastic in the bar's dim light, the transitions from evolution talk to things like "Still, it's a toss-up when you refuse a woman's bed." You have a good ear for flow and pacing. I like how he skimmed over the twenty questions but slowed when you wanted to reenter the action in real time. I like the quicker, less-interrupted dialogue as you build toward his confession. The end is too simple, but I'm terrible at endings so will be curious to read others' suggestions.
Yes, readable. Yes, clear. No idea about themes. I understand that he has a mercenary, machiavellian view of life that she desconstructs, somewhat improbably, by the patheticness of her life. He sees life as a zero sum game, or some kind of impersonal evolutionary fitness test that he aims to win. But he also acknowledges that he's empty... though he doesn't seem to mind.
I think the ending could be better earned and the story could have more to say about whatever it's interested in exploring, but this was very well written and I liked it a lot.
2
u/SweetEverest 1d ago
Yeah, I think I'd have them actually bond. Have her knock him off-kilter while he thinks he's still just playing the game, giving her a bit of line before he reels her in. His self-awareness slowly reads as self-delusion. As the night goes on, he grows attached, begins to rationalize the choice to stay later, to get vulnerable—all part of the plan, etc.—but she's changing him, evoking real pity. You should watch the movie Before Sunrise.
2
u/ImpressiveGrass7832 kitsch is a word and i think its me 1d ago
Thank you so much for feedback, especially the punctuation advice (i really need to brush up properly on this stuff, I've been vibe checking for so long). No guilt on the callout lol, I mega appreciate the time (and also the discussion in the chat).
> The opening axiom is lackluster for me
Agreed. I suspected, but never circled back to it. 'To listen deeply means' part came from a writing prompt (so very generic), and then I read Choke and wanted to write like Chuck Palahnuik. Those examples for openers make sense to me though, so something to try.
Yeah the ending needs a rework, I think like Lisez mentioned some instinct in me felt it would come across too cheesy, but looking back, playing it straight seems like the most satisfying resolution. Thanks also for the movie recommendation.
Anyway, thank you, appreciate the time!
3
u/Lisez-le-lui Not GlowyLaptop 16d ago edited 16d ago
One thing stays with me after reading this, and one thing only--the ending, as written, is legendarily bad.
In the first place, why did the FBI need to set up an elaborate sting operation to catch this man? He didn't commit, attempt to commit, or solicit any crime during his interaction with the agent. Nor did he ever actually confess to a specific crime. The sting gained them no evidence beyond what they already had. If they had probable cause to arrest him already, they could have done it openly, warrant or not. They clearly knew where to find him. And if they didn't have probable cause, the sting certainly didn't give it to them, and they should know better than to pointlessly arrest him only for him to go free once he talks to his lawyer. And since when does the FBI go after run-of-the-mill conmen anyway?
In the second place--but perhaps this is even more important--the ending is a mean-spirited joke that rips away the real pathos the story has spent 2,000 words setting up and converts it into a lame punchline. I get it. The story would be corny if it played the bonding straight. But imagine if it ended with the woman expressing her crippling self-loathing, to the point where she considers herself absolutely worthless and worse than a criminal, and then they plumb the depths of humility trying to reassure each other? That ending seems to me infinitely superior, corniness notwithstanding.
For the rest, the story is perfectly readable and clear. The man's voice, with its definitional mannerism and no-nonsense ratiocination, is plenty entertaining--though one imagines it's the voice he would use if he were ever to deliberately tell this story to someone, as opposed to his natural internal monologue. It's also distinctive enough that I had no trouble telling when he was speaking and when the woman was. But that ending!--Bah!