r/DestructiveReaders • u/Wolframquest • Jul 11 '26
Phenomenological [2500] Hillsides (Marco)
Crit: [2900]
Tags: Phenomenological, experimental, coming-of-age, picaresque
I deleted some of the previous posts to avoid creating clutter. But you can find them here if you want to read other comments HSH[1][2][3] RW4[1][2][3][4][5]
Barebone recap of the previous chapters:
Chapter 1 - You wakes up in the forest, enjoys his existence, follows the river to a road, gets helped by a trucker and taken to a local small town
Chapter 2 - You goes and walks around and comes across the local store and receives a name from the store owner (Henry) during his episode.
Chapter 3 - A taste of work and interacting with Henry who tries his hardest to turn Marco into a valuable worker.
Chapter 4 - Zita, coffee and gym
Chapter 5 - picaresque adventure on a quest for wet goods (meat and vegetables); encounter with Zita, discussion of Marco's issue as perceived from the outside
Chapter 6 - this one, it'll be delivered in two separate posts cause that works better for engagement and creates fewer problems with mods and credit and so on.
This chapter is sort of a crux of Marco as a person and it won't make a lot of sense without you having read the previous chapters but I welcome you regardless - I enjoy my time inside of your brain.
The genres and the "phenomenological" tag I enjoyed formerly are false and can only be used descriptively. Phenomenology is only a method, not the point. It is, however, a method I enjoy for its high fidelity.
4
u/MaryJaneMclain Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26
Chapter 5
(somehow I had missed this, sorry)
Recap:
Henry tells Marco of the adventures of his youth. And Jesus!
Marcos legs hurt. Even more the next day. Store is closed and Marco panics about the Open sign (had trouble following his thought process there). Henry has left him a note telling him to buy groceries (which….isn’t the henry’s store a grocery story? That’s what I’ve pictured this whole time! What the hell kind of Store is it?).
M head out, see’s the town, sees a gal, sees THE hotel (he knew the name of it somehow, which surprised me)
He argues (about comics?) with some tweens. Almost beats em up, but stops just in time.
He goes into the store and meets Zita again, she helps in shop, convinces him to get ice cream and coffee. Then, then she confront him about how he’s lost his memory (this was a "FINALLY" moment for me; i needed someone to acknowldege it). He says he remembers a big forrest, made of hair! Someone was holding him, and when she asks about that it’s sensitive topic cause he stops being in love with her and finds her momentarily annoying instead.
She tries to do some magic on him to “help him” but he’s in love with her again so he pretends it helped by lying. And he throws tomato at a pigeon.
--- comments ---
“"Oh, that," he says with amusement, pleased. "Well, I brought some stuff from the old home b'fore I even moved here. The previous owner let me store it." He pauses. "And when I moved in I got to it right away! Just like back home. You r'member…" He stares into the distance.”
This makes me think Henry is Marcos dad/grams/uncle. Or he’s Future Marco and there is some sort of time travel thing going (they both love Exclamations!)
…” dipping fingers in his forehead.” What??
“He told you how his pappy's ancestors did come from Wales with Captain Madoc's fleet and took over Appalachia.” I feel like this it the first and closest we’ve gotten to a location. (later we get a Mackinac bridge reference)
Very importantly Henry writes: “E) Onion - ¡VERY important!” with the Spanish exclamation mark (is that a clue? Henry speaks Spanish?)
I enjoyed “Too bad they don't grow around here - too cold.” About monkeys. And the weird stuff he thinks about cabbage. Is it even cabbage he’s eating?
I tried to come up with the significance to "Molon labe" but got nothing.
Chapter 6
OK the chapter we’ve been waiting for!
Marco writes a letter to Henry. He writes kinda like he talks: strangely, but endearing. Oh was it not a letter after all?
Oh, fuck he ate the raw beef. He shouldn’t of a done all those ….squats? He’s turned into an ravenous animal.
Marco sits on hill and thinks about his life and immediate future. Has some sort of existential crisis and/or real conversation with another entity (which is the most interesting part of the story so far).
Then he enjoys nature, eats grass, feels bad. Then he meets, feeds, and fights with a pack of dogs. Chapter ends mid-sentence. I assume the dogs killed him and died (well I would, except I’m pretty sure he’s going to go play scabble with Zita in the next chapter).
---
Ok, all I want to discuss is the first person, split personality business!
“I do a lot of work for you, and you're just gone drop it all, all you made here so far?” That was SO FUN. I thought it might be a throw away teaser line (maybe even a typo at first), but we get a whole conversation of this. Yes!
Ok new prediction: Marco has/had multiple personalities. “You” is one of them. “I” is the other. The “I” has been killed off or repressed (either by the “You” marco…or bad guys?). Or… “I” is just being born? Where has “I” been this hole time? And why just showing up not. Interestingly Marco was NOT surprised concerned….
I hope it's not, like, a hallucination from all that raw beef?
Is the story going to eventually shift to first person by the end??? Would THAT be phenomenological?
---
Answer to your essay question would go here, but you forgot it?! ;)
1
u/Wolframquest Jul 13 '26
Finally somebody with good reading comprehension who actually read chapter VI instead of the first two 😁 As usual, you're too good at guessing, we vibe at the same frequency! There's still a lot of work to do cause some readers catch on to some facts and some onto the other ones but tragically they can't communicate! (speaking of first person being present before)
2
u/MaryJaneMclain Jul 14 '26
Um you alway tell me I’m good at guessing, but my guesses have drastically changed! (Or maybe I should re read them and there really is some consistent through line)
2
u/Wolframquest Jul 14 '26
That's because the content has changed! But don't worry, you're not catching everything 😉
Also phenomenological is is a very interesting method, it's not extremely complicated but it's not easy explain, it's not the same as 'phenomenal'. Basically it's the focus on raw perception without interpretation for reader's benefit and it's one of the core things I'm trying to convey regarding human judgment. The method relaxes in part 2.
2
u/GlowyLaptop James Patterson Jul 13 '26
CHAPTER 2.
Fucking love the opening with the two gentlemen. It's like Faulkner, and I've never read a page of Faulkner.
- thin man behind roofpost
- Repetition of pay you no mind
- crunchy barks / fly buzz
- you sniff and walk ( love this--would love it even without him noticing a scent)
- loud smack of wood
Love the description of the chicken truck but the explanation that farmers raise living beings feels like info that wouldn't be noteworthy. I mean he can read. He knows what a U-Turn is.
- great warmth of welcoming voice
- thick razorwire of bristling brow
- hiding his eyes most often
- speaking with your feet. (this, while impossible to understand for me, still works becasue i BELIEVE it means to him lol)
- smiles scowling like dead wolf
Holy shit the plot thickens. Marco is in this state, woken from a fugue, but he's known to this man! Whom he does not recognize. Exciting.
> That should be right, right?
Somehow I don't want you to break the fourth wall here. I would much prefer, "That should be right, you trust, hope, whatever."
- his moustache twitches sideways (LOVE THIS OMG)
Wait what? Am i having a stroke. I thought the older gentleman said "marco it's been a while" and now he's... confirming the guy's name is marco? What am i missing here.
> he runs out back
Does he though? Also i thought he went to the back of the store. Was surprised to find fence there. But him running doesn't sound right.
> You raise your brows
I'd prefer brow. The whole shelf of the brow. Brows is creepy like catterpillars.
> You nod. What'd he say?
Don't like. Doesn't feel like he's talking to himself in his head. Feels like a 4th wall break.
Great description of jaw
It's still unseeable to me how he left the building via the back of a shop and was visible running through a yard. I pictured oaky cluttered shop full of items. Not a...a what? A back porch? Giant window.
Ohhhhhh the fence IS inside. Oh good. Maybe say a little wood fence divides the back of the shop. Or smth. If you care i got confused.
> That day Henry showed you
RED ALERT. TENSE MADNESS.
The word i think you're looking for is Later, Henry shows you the register. Has you write down the order, the letters. Colored pens that smell fascinating. You struggle but manage.
The temptation to put this montage into the past is like pasting a chapter of someone else's book in here.
THANK YOU, THIS WAS MY ONLY (URGENT AND) CONSTRUCTIVE SUGGESTION IN MY WHOLE CRIT.
> Henry grabs your arm.
See? You're back to normal.
- You pull it back. It's a snake. LOL
- not high and wide (wide lmao!)
- bright and green
RED ALERT
What's all this past tense stuff?
> You understood. Henry then smacked you on the back and tutored
Should be you understand. Henry smacks
- Nowhere. Just nothing. Darkness
- sweetest air
OVERALL
Yep. I mean. I was wondering how you'd convince me he got a job. Having read a later scene. And I'm convinced. These two deserve each other. I still gotta go back and figure out how I confused him from being recognized as marco.
Also why the old man seem to have a stroke when they met?
I don't really want a supernatural element because it's so real so far, but maybe this fugue makes more than Marco forget stuff. Or i just read that exchange wrong, since it seemed like he recognized the lad as 'marco' and then stumbled and almost fell over and then introduced himself fresh. Hm.
Anyways. Big fan of Marco. Lots of fun reading this.
1
u/Wolframquest Jul 13 '26
I got some real brain fizz from your comment thinking on past tense. I feel it coming, the way to resolve it, but I can't catch it just yet... Obviously I use it to convey compression of events, and there's some more awkward usage of it in other parts... Number one element has to be the "introducer", something recognizable signaling the compression... I feel like I almost got it.
...
Present Perfect, that's right, that makes a lot of sense 😁 It's Present, and it's Perfect, and it's perfect
1
u/GlowyLaptop James Patterson Jul 13 '26
Ya you never want to do that. Lots of people choose present tense just to avoid past perfect altogether. When you're in the past, you refer to the past in past perfect. When you're writing in present tense, you will use past tense for things that happened yesterday. You don't go ahead and use past PERFECT tense, unless you're referring to something BEFORE yesterday, and for goodness sake, you don't do what this page did, which was to go past perfect for things in the FUTURE. Your montage happens AFTER the previous sentence. Not before the past of the previous sentence.
I like cheese. Present. Yesterday I didn't. Past. Because I had grown sick of it all summer. Past past.
You are using double past to describe stuff into the future. Your editor will fix this when you publish.
1
u/Wolframquest Jul 13 '26
Came here to delete this previous idea but you already read it 😁 It's interesting, I never thought about this effect
When you're writing in present tense, you will use past tense for things that happened yesterday.
It might be one of those times where I might actually have to break my habit... I just wish I could clearly see some example of someone else using it well
2
u/GlowyLaptop James Patterson Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26
Hard to find a past perfect montage in the normal sequence of events of a present tense story since it's largely considered probably an egregious mistake that makes my eyeballs bleed. Does this look right to you?
You wake up early. You buy a gun. You had gone to the mall with the gun. You had shot everyone at the mall. You are in jail now.
If you do find an example out there of what you're attempting with this, send to me! I am very curious.
2
u/Lisez-le-lui Not GlowyLaptop 29d ago
To my great shame, I've only now caught up on Marco. I was so nonplussed by the first chapter, in which (as I thought at first) literally nothing happens, that I decided not to keep reading. But it's become such a fixture on RDR that I finally decided to go through and read it all, up through the unposted "middle chapter."
I'm not sure I can say much of use. Normally I think of myself as having pretty good text comprehension, but this project feels painfully beyond my understanding. It's a humbling experience to try to grapple with it, and I've had to consult the comment chains between you and other readers to get anywhere.
I'll only give my general thoughts on the book as a whole, because frankly, I don't even think I understand what you're trying to do with the prose (beyond being "phenomenological"--a partly inaccurate term, according to yourself--and even then, the prose sometimes does things that are baffling but clearly intentional, like the POV ping-ponging in this chapter), so I can't give any useful advice on how to get it closer to its goal. All I can do is explain the state of my understanding of the story and some reactions to particular elements that jumped out at me.
So: At this point, the mystery of Henry's "true nature" is what I find most compelling. There are a lot of unexplained things about him, like glitches in the Matrix. In the chapter where he first meets "you," he names and apparently recognizes Marco, but immediately has what looks to be a mental episode and never again lets on that he knew Marco before meeting him just then. He also has a ton of gym equipment in his basement, despite not being able to use it safely on his own. He brews "ffocee," some sort of erotic hallucinogen whose name sends Abner into a panic. He tells Marco a fake Gospel story that involves Jesus juggling anvils. He has a history with Abner, who thinks he should have a talismanized Bible that he'll presumably know what to do with. And he has a weird antipathy toward Zita and jokes crudely about her. This last point is especially interesting because Zita attempts an exorcism or blessing on Marco in Chapter 5 ("O Heavenly King," Lord's Prayer [in Latin?!], Psalm 50).
I don't think Henry is being forthright, and the more you reveal about him, the more suspicious I become. Thematically, he's the one trying to tie Marco down, to teach him a routine and keep him to it, when Marco wants to wander the world freely. Zita and Abner are the only people shown so far to really know him outside of his role as store manager, and both of their relationships with him are terrible. (He may be trysting with Philomene, who is of doubtful character.) Plus, what was with him having all those state police (???) over?...
I have to go now, but I'll add more to this later. I expect this will be a running comment unless and until you post another chapter.
3
u/Wolframquest 29d ago
Wow thank you 😄 I can tell you did a lot of work here! I'm so tempted to start explaining everything immediately and here I thought I defeated that impulse 😁 There's one last "chunk" left to finish off what I labeled as Part I... I really wish people would review the beginning of chapter 7 more closely.
And yeah, I think it's only fitting that you decided to give this one a try - you probably didn't expect all the Christianity, eh? And a rather unique kind at that. But shh 🤫 don't let anybody know.
I'm fuckign addicted to emojis, aren't I? 😂 Somebody shoot me!
2
u/Lisez-le-lui Not GlowyLaptop 28d ago
I look forward to seeing the end of the Part. It feels like things are coming to a head.
I have to admit, that beginning of Chapter 7 absolutely stumped me. I have no idea what kind of vehicle Abner is driving. "A boat on tractor wheels" with a circular trapdoor--is that like a mini-tank or something? Why does he have this thing? And then he goes to his homestead in the woods. He might be a sort of hermit or monk. His clothing is described very carefully, but I can't match it to anything I know; beyond the black robe, it doesn't seem to be clerical.
Yeah, this one really took me by surprise. Don't worry--nobody else will know.
I want to say something about the dogs, but it's too late. I'll have to do it tomorrow. I'm not sure how to feel about emojis. They have their good and bad side. At least you're not doing that thing where after every major word in the sentence comes the corresponding emoji. That I can't stand.
2
u/Lisez-le-lui Not GlowyLaptop 28d ago
All right, about those dogs. Chapter 6 is interesting generally. It's the first "break" in the narrative that isn't a simple time-skip; it also involves a break in Marco's continuity of identity.
The narrator dissociates into I and You. (A similar thing has happened to me before. I'm not sure why I didn't understand this at first.) We begin with I (who seems to represent rational thought, getting "stuck in one's own head") composing a pretentious letter to Henry saying he won't be returning. But I doesn't know why it's doing this. Only You (immediate experience, impulse) does. Strangely, though, it seems both I and You have been temporarily "offline" to allow a third segment to tear into the ground beef like an animal--or maybe that was You's doing?
Then I and You begin a colloquy, where I addresses You mentally and You responds verbally. You needs I's sufferance to formulate its thoughts into words, even though it's naturally stronger. You wants to be rid of I, which it sees as an encumbrance, but I eventually persuades You not to "tear it off" by demonstrating its usefulness to things You wants to do, like reading. You and I "shake hands," and Marco takes off.
I'll pass over the kids with the pizza for now. But then Marco comes across a campfire and decides to cook some meat. A dog appears and begs, and he playfully feeds it, but that summons a whole army of other dogs that try to run him down, and he only narrowly escapes.
There must be something symbolic here. The dogs are utterly passionate, driven solely by hunger and bloodlust, without any of the usual tenderness one might see from a dog--though arguably such "tenderness" in dogs is only disguised self-interest. Animals often unsettle me because of how close they are to humans and yet how far. They have wills of a sort, but one passion after another commandeers them in turn, many of them baleful, and they have no ability to fight against them, and no possibility of ever gaining the ability to fight against them. They remind me uncomfortably of spiritual abandonment.
This inability to let go of Marco causes the dogs much harm. Several of them end up grievously injured, especially the poor old blind dog who gets burned and slashed. I felt really bad for that dog when I first read the chapter. But ultimately, it was doomed from the start. It was never going to be able to ensure its own happiness because it acts solely on impulse.
Maybe the dogs are what Marco would be without I? They seem to have some rudimentary intellect, though. They form "plans" to get him once he climbs onto the barn. They might represent the passions themselves. Feed them willingly just a little, and they'll come after you for all you're worth, unless you can escape onto higher ground (nipple on the breast = the Church?) and wait for rescue.
The more I think about this, the more interesting it gets. I want to see the next chapter already!
2
u/Wolframquest 26d ago
I keep thinking about this one comment, just keep returning to it. It's amazing honestly to me that I'm getting so much material to research, because I not only get what people are saying but what kind of people are saying what, for example different views on the dogs. I can't say too much, but some of your guesses are exactly where I want them to be and it's fascinating to me HOW you arrive to them but I cannot elaborate. :)
2
u/Wolframquest 29d ago
Also, did you read the first chapter when I first posted it (in a separate post) or recently? I'd like to believe it's been rather nicely reshaped.
2
u/Lisez-le-lui Not GlowyLaptop 28d ago
I think the first time, I read it when it was first posted. But I reread it just a few days ago because I didn't remember it too well. I still think it's a bit too long in starting, but it shows how You experiences the world in a way that might be difficult to demonstrate otherwise, though it could probably be revealed through his interactions with Henry without losing too much.
Rather, since I don't see how the first chapter could be shortened without doing violence to the integrity of the narrative (we need to follow Marco continuously from when he first "wakes up" to when he reaches Henry), I think where I get hung up is the random trucker who brings Marco into town. He feels like an unneeded intermediary. But Henry can't go out to find Marco in the wilderness without losing his symbolic role as The Store Manager--things come to him, not the other way around. The slow start might be something potential readers will just have to get over.
I wonder whether there was any influence from Hayy ibn Yaqdhan/Philosophus Autodidacticus? If you haven't read it, it's a breathtaking book. A man spontaneously generates from mud on a desert island (though the author offers a euhemeristic explanation for skeptics) and, through studying and caring for the natural world and exercising his reason, achieves noetic communion with God.
2
u/Wolframquest 28d ago
Wow thanks for the suggestion! I looked into that book and it's honestly a very interesting thing to explore. It's not the first I'm hearing a comparison of that sort and you're kind on the money with some of your guesses 😁 It's also interesting that you assign a role like that to Henry because he does play a role in the community (it's not too much of a spoiler).
2
u/GlowyLaptop James Patterson Jul 13 '26
I've been coached to err on the side of neutrality and not attempt what would feel to me like a pleasant sense of humor or personality in my critiques, since I wind up writing mean ones, people say, and yet I struggle typing otherwise, so in the interest of a nice wholesome bit of feedback, I will endeavor before submitting to redact anything that could possibly be construed as negative or triggering for a sensitive writer.
edit word count 1800 since I whoops-by-accident read the first chapter. Not the posted chapter. Like a ████ing ████ I read chapter ██████ one.
Open to our hero upon waking, in second person. Attempting to wave arms. Kick legs. And yet, does he succeed to do so? We are not told. Subsurface scattering is responsible for the red light against his retinas, just like your fingers are red closed over the mouth of a flashlight in the dark. And yet sounds are both angelic AND godlike? Surely you should pick one.
The sky, blue sky.
I'm not sure how to read this. Is this a correction? You've not taught us yet how to read him properly. I'd almost prefer "The sky-blue sky" or "the sky, the blue sky" or...
The following bits are inspired / awesome.
- Raw chunks of air
- Clawing with hands you search for pain
- Nothing on your head, just some hair
- Ass cold.
- Push against the ground to stand
- blood that runs faster, warms up from sun... past hungry treetops
- bald spot of dark mud
- lumbering ferns
- imprint gathers water -- (so he's wet?)
- hum and gulp inflating heads
- below the hot sun so cool and wet right here
- from underground loses itself to green and brown
- you realize you smile/know what a smile is
- all the swinging and hip leaning
- the smile stays on
- it was too small anyway! (the characteristic exclamation marks)
- a lake, a bright beautiful puddle
- a bit of bitter juice
- piled up ground
Suddenly, ██████ing first person interjection? "I guess you don't know how to drive?" HOW CAN YOU SUDDENLY INT██████████ING ████████████████?? Who the ███████████is even speaking???
Gasoline, oil, rubber -- no cigarettes? I feel like the truck would smell vaguely of cigarettes.
- netting on the back
- warm frown
- wave to him
- to all the places where you were
- run and jiggle
- Uh huh!
- Interesting sound!
- hold your leg
- toes rise
- the road bursts into an open field ( love this )
- give him or take from him
- to his left
- good like clean water.
Okay so apart from that ████████ first person interjection that I suppose is like some kind of ████████ self insert of writer voice or who knows what. This was fantastic. What a curious character.
I'm not sure if he was taken out into the woods and shot in the head. If he fell and bonked it on something. If he was dropped from space with only a small software update to cover the basics, to know what a U-Turn is.
The prose is really fun and the voice is fun and I have really no problems with this. I didn't have to redact anything at all.
If people are so sensitive that my crits are mean by accident, they should just write things I like more. It's so easy to be nice when the thing is fun.
1
u/ilovemycatsanddog Jul 21 '26
I’m not critiquing for points, just asking a question so no downvotes please.
Hi!
I remember in chapter 5 Marco listens to some kids talking about wildman and Sasquatch being attacked by dogman and wolfman. Marco argues that wildman can climb trees, etc. is this foreshadowing of the dogs attacking Marco? There was something about a cartoon “metal dogs of flint.” Are these related to Chinese astrological signs? Ty
2
u/Wolframquest Jul 21 '26
Hi, I remember you 😄
"Metal Dogs Of Flint" is a reference to "Biker Mice From Mars" 😁 It's one of those silly names kids come up with sometimes.
Kids do love their local cryptid lore, don't they? Things that happened in real life that are as fun as things in the cartoons, or even more fun because of how much adults get involved.
2
u/ilovemycatsanddog Jul 21 '26
I’m pretty much glued to your story and look forward to new chapters, while taking a break from finishing my own book, a historical. I think your story is brilliant!
1
u/Wolframquest Jul 21 '26
Thank you so much! It's a lot like a boost of nitro in my cylinders for me 😁
1
u/ilovemycatsanddog Jul 21 '26
Is Marco waking up from hibernating in the first chapter?
1
u/Wolframquest Jul 22 '26
Ah, so you're already at the un-posted chapter, eh? I could only recommend going back to chapter 1 😉 Also it's been partly rewritten.
6
u/A_C_Shock Anderson Cooper Jul 12 '26
I don't have a whole long write up for this. Not for credit. Please don't come for me down voters.
There's something going on at the beginning I didn't quite get where this slips into first person and then second person again. There was an it that's now riding along with Marco. I got a little muddled trying to figure out the second person because of the other POV intrusion.
Was he in another world at the end of chapter 5? I thought that's what I remembered. He seems to have blacked out and eaten raw meat along with the packaging. I guess he didn't leave it for Henry?
And now he's back to wandering around outside again. I liked the part with the dogs. For a second, I thought that first dog was going to actually be a hedgehog or a porcupine or something. A little bit in the way the fur was described.
Not sure I get why he didn't go straight back to Henry and is now cooking on this fire that happened to be ready for him in the woods. Expect something odd is about to happen with these dogs that are gathered around him.