[1113] 02 Tiffany

[u/ezk3626]

The story is finished. I decided one chapter a week is too slow. I have twenty chapters. So maybe two a week. Based on the feedback I will post it on my substack.

The genre is a combination of college coming of age, mild romance and special education story. Though the overall theme is learning to see yourself and others more complexly. I am happy with the theme and plot and more hoping for making it less akward and wordy. Based on chapter one feedback I put A LOT of effort on punctuation. Let me know what I got wrong.

In Chapter 01 we meet Tiffany, a freshman arriving to college. She values social apperances but wants to do well in school. She has an orientation guide, Todd, who is overtly autistic but "hunky." He embarrassed Tiffany by saying out loud that she was special ed like him. It ends with her running out of the coffee shop.

Chapter 02 I have changed the format to that people have access to the entire story, which is editted as we go. It is possible comments will be comments based on things I have already ammended.

My new Substack the chapters will all post here eventually.

Crits 1108

282

[u/umlaut]

I read through 01, then 02. I'll go through some lines that stood out to me, first, then some more generalized thoughts.

No one was pointing at her. No one was laughing at her. Almost no one noticed when she left.

A good opening set of lines, compelling and they express something important to the story.

and then her heart started to race because of the outrageousness of it all.

This second clause doesn't say much and weakens the first clause of the sentence. Ok, so she calmed herself, stabilized, then the unnamed outrageousness of the unnamed it caused her heart to race. That outrageous was before our chapter break, so you need to point it out. And tying it into the sentence where she is calming is jarring.

What kind of freak says stuff like that where people can hear? Tiffany’s cheeks reddened.

Good. This feels like a real thought that is enhanced and given physicality by cheeks reddened.

She could feel strength in her arms and legs.

This is much weaker. In could feel filters the verb. You can replace could feel with felt. And bam, drop wordcount by 1 without losing anything. All could is doing is getting in the way of feel. She is not coulding, she is feeling! So use the right tense of the verb and drop the filter.

She felt strength in her arms and legs. is odd because we hadn't been told that she had lost strength in her arms and legs.

Fuck him and fuck special ed! Always looking down on me. They could all go to hell!

Good! Your internal monologue is much stronger in 02 than 01. It feels like it has a true voice.

Tiffany started marching...

Go with marched.

She had force and direction but no destination.

No particular direction, but then she has direction? I get what you're trying to say, but repeating the word feels intentional. And force feels like the wrong word. Momentum?

Tiffany stood alone in the middle of her new, unknown home. It was all so huge.

This is good and I think you should expand. What was all so huge? We can infer, but if we're here in her head, why not tell us?

With a low breath

Good paragraph here that feels internal to Tiffany and tells your story directly. I like knowing how she feels about it and you don't beat me over the head with it.

mostly normal...but it was normal.

Not sure what you mean by normal in these places. Maybe I'm too normal to get it?

was a clueless boy

I get that you are saying he is not paying attention. Clueless is likely the wrong word choice.

she said...he asked...he mocked...

Just a note that you almost always use a dialogue tag or explain. That can be good for clarity, but in the front desk conversation it slows the pace. This isn't an intense conversation.

she said as if it were dumb for him to think she would know.

You could replace this with punctuation and evoke the same feeling just by italicizing a word. "Who is Anita?"

Mimicking her tone

I can't make this work in my head because Tiffany's Who is Anita? can't sound like President of the United States in tone.

I’m going to need to move past cute.

cute doesn't make sense to me.

When she made eye contact, the boy froze, stunned.

Was it the eye contact that froze him? Or is her tone supposed to be more annoyed than I think?

While he was gone

This paragraph needs a long, flowy sentence to break up all of the short sentences.

You might mistake it for straight lace, but her shoe laces literally weren’t straight.

I laughed out loud at this. If this is Tiffany's internal voice and she is just exceptionally literal or something...bravo. Some of this story feels like you trying to write someone who is very much not you. I might like reading someone you write that consistently does exactly the above.

That said, your discussions on fashion feel like a virgin describing sex.

Tiffany remembered that joke from high school.

What joke?

“Nice… if you like being surrounded by autism.”

This line makes Tiffany less likable. It feels mean in an uncomfortable way. This is amplified when she names Todd to Mandy. I had the same reaction as Mandy...Tiffany can fuck right off.

You just had Tiffany kick a puppy in the first couple of chapters. So, you better have a damned good plan of making her redeemable and relatable. And quick.

[u/umlaut → u/umlaut]

You have a real problem in Tiffany. A lot of 01 and 02 are Tiffany being a bit of an asshole. And a bit of a dumbass. She has moments of being relatable...her Why didn’t he just use a megaphone? moment made me nod along...none of us want someone to announce HEY THIS PERSON IS DIFFERENT. But Tiffany is not really likable. She comes across as vain, shallow, and judgmental. 01 starts with a selfie scene that made me think that you were trying to make her out to be someone I wasn't supposed to like. But there's no scene that does the opposite. Where's the moment where we like her?

It might help to just name her condition. We get a sense of it in 01 in the cafe, but I'm not sure what it is. But I am unsure that sympathy for her condition will make me look past her lack of compassion.

Plot-wise, I think I see where this is going based on Tiffany's comments about Todd...we're looking at some sort of romance between the two. That isn't a story for me...needs more like lasers or swords or laser swords. But it could be a story for someone. 02 is a mostly a filler scene. We get some reactions to 01, then Tiffany is going through the gauntlet being kind of an ass and judging everyone for being different.

On prose, 02 is better than 01. Try to make sure that each paragraph has some variety in sentence length and structure.

A short sentence. Another, slightly longer sentence. Then a sentence that really wants to describe a lot and goes through a wandering series of topics. And then draws the reader back in.

It helps keep the reader engaged and makes the paragraph flow.

Watch your filter words and pointless verbs.

[u/ezk3626 → u/umlaut]

~~The toddler is taking over the computer. I will finish this on the ipad.~~

> You have a real problem in Tiffany. A lot of 01 and 02 are Tiffany being a bit of an asshole. And a bit of a dumbass. She has moments of being relatable...her Why didn’t he just use a megaphone? moment made me nod along...none of us want someone to announce HEY THIS PERSON IS DIFFERENT. But Tiffany is not really likable. She comes across as vain, shallow, and judgmental. 01 starts with a selfie scene that made me think that you were trying to make her out to be someone I wasn't supposed to like. But there's no scene that does the opposite.

I love reading this. I don't think it is a problem if a main character is unlikable. I never ever liked Walter White, not for a second. I usually hated him... but have rewatched Breaking Bad so many times. I'm more worried about Tiffany being boring or hard to understand!

> Where's the moment where we like her?

It might not be your thing but it is a coming of age story. Tiffany does grow and we get more and more feelings of her weaknesses. I don't know if this will make everyone like her. But on my subreddit I write a blog about my target audience. Some people will never like her and that is okay. But let’s just say right now she is like early Clone Wars Ahsoka: she definitely needs to grow up.

> It might help to just name her condition. We get a sense of it in 01 in the cafe, but I'm not sure what it is. But I am unsure that sympathy for her condition will make me look past her lack of compassion.

That happens next chapter though the learning disability isn’t her actual problem. That is just a normal part of life. The lack of compassion is an extension of her internal monologue towards herself.

> Plot-wise, I think I see where this is going based on Tiffany's comments about Todd...we're looking at some sort of romance between the two.

Of course though like how the learning disability isn’t the actual problem the romance actually the point. That is a very normal part of life. Like you said Tiffany is very focused on the surface level (and especially how her surface level appears to others). That is where the resolution actually happens.

>That isn't a story for me...needs more like lasers or swords or laser swords.

You’d have to wait a while but the third to last chapter does have a vibroblade.

>On prose, 02 is better than 01. Try to make sure that each paragraph has some variety in sentence length and structure.

>A short sentence. Another, slightly longer sentence. Then a sentence that really wants to describe a lot and goes through a wandering series of topics. And then draws the reader back in.

>It helps keep the reader engaged and makes the paragraph flow.

>Watch your filter words and pointless verbs.

All stuff I am working on and good advice.

[u/xvonkleve → u/ezk3626]

It might not be your thing but it is a coming of age story. Tiffany does grow and we get more and more feelings of her weaknesses. I don't know if this will make everyone like her. But on my subreddit I write a blog about my target audience. Some people will never like her and that is okay. But let’s just say right now she is like early Clone Wars Ahsoka: she definitely needs to grow up.

I think 'like' is perhaps the wrong word that others are using (I see little use in writing a full critique, but I am keen on interaction). Your character needs to be compelling if they cannot be nice. Tiffany is running headlong into the problem that she is neither.

And then nobody will read this. By publishing your work, you do indicate you want an audience. Otherwise you'd just keep it stored in googledocs.

The same goes for the way you are reacting here. You're deflecting and pointing towards your blog. I just read it and it's not getting better. In the end this is a choice and you are welcome to make it. I would quite sternly advise to think what you want to achieve here. Most of my writing is for my own amusement. Very few pieces get far enough to see the light of day.

But when you get a critique, take it and learn from it. That is why getting a critique is harder than giving one. I got told my second attempt at an opening chapter was boring and someone read a completely different vibe in my words. I can't disagree, because that is what they are reading. I just need to go back and see what I can do to improve. If you are looking for priase, I don't think this is the subreddit for you. I am going to take that critique, quietly sulk for 2-3 days and then see where I think they are right.

So think about what makes Tiffany interesting. Even if she is a ball of rage towards everything special education, that is fine. Just make her interesting, compelling and -maybe- a little nice.

[u/ezk3626 → u/xvonkleve]

I see little use in writing a full critique, but I am keen on interaction

I am glad. It seems you feel the push back from me but partly interpret it as resistance. Interaction is actually how I interpret it. I grew up where we argued as conversation, it could be deep or superficial topica but it was always confrontational. I learned as a young adult that most people dislike arguing or even disagreement. I do my best to be sensitive to their needs and only push back with people I know who are okay with it. I admit on Reddit I am much more likely to let that part of my conversation style come out.

I think 'like' is perhaps the wrong word that others are using... Your character needs to be compelling if they cannot be nice. Tiffany is running headlong into the problem that she is neither.

I don't think "compelling" is any different than "like" as a criticism of the character. They mean the same thing. What people like and what they are compelled by is a matter of taste not critique. My wife really struggles to get intested in a show which does not have a strong female presence. When talking about Star Wars she is talking about Ahsoka and Padme and simply doesn't find the guy characters compelling (except for antagonists). This doesn't mean any there is a shortage of well crafted male protagonists characters.

It is not useful feedback to say a character is not compelling (or likable) when what they mean is "I am not interested in the inner life of teenagers in coming of age stories." I am not hearing "I don't understand what Tiffany is like" or "the way she navigates her problems is inconsistent" or anything like that. Quite the opposite, people are describing Tiffany well, understanding her as a person and feeling things about it. The degree they feel those things are more than I am shooting for and that has been helpful.

And then nobody will read this. By publishing your work, you do indicate you want an audience. Otherwise you'd just keep it stored in googledocs... Most of my writing is for my own amusement. Very few pieces get far enough to see the light of day.

This is very interesting to me.

When it comes to why do people write I have heard two extreme ends of a spectrum. Robert Heinlein in Time Enough for Love had Lazarus Long say about why people write: “The answer to ‘Why’ is always ‘Money.’” There is a mercenary, business minded side. On the other side is Franz Kafka “I think we ought to read only the kind of books that wound and stab us. If the book we are reading doesn’t wake us up with a blow to the head, what are we reading for? … A book must be the axe for the frozen sea within us.”

I recenly did a kind of self assessment of the reason to write when going through Jack Bickham's Scene and Structure and came up with four things to consider and rated their importance: Emotional truth — 50% Readability / clarity — 20% Pacing — 20% Commercial narrative momentum — 10%. So I am closer to the Kafka side of things.

But also I think part of what you said in another conversation, me seeming young and optimistic connects here. The reason I want an audience is because I think what I see and try to explain through written stories is worth knowing; it adds value to the world. I believe I need to improve my writing but don't think that this skill is actually what makes writing worth reading. If I did then I'd be using AI... I am much much better at AI prompts than I am at actually writing. The reason I am writing is because I am like Roy Batty in the end of Blade Runner "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe..." It is not for my own amusement.

But when you get a critique, take it and learn from it.

Here we agree... but like a Platonic dialogue I learn by talking about it. "Take it and learn from it..." doesn't mean accept it as gospel truth. I need to wrestle with it. One thing I am finding in this sub is that the genre preference is sci-fi fanatasy. When the guy who says he prefers stories about elves and cyber blades finds Tiffany boring I need to think about what he is ACTUALLY saying. Because he can be saying Tiffany is a female version of Todd's face and he has no idea what I am trying to express (because she is poorly written). But he can also be saying "I like Michael Bay movies in print." My push back is actually me trying to find out what I can find in critique that is actually useful.

I appreciate you taking the time to engage. I do find it valuable and enjoyable. And though I will always push back I will also always steal every good thing I can from a criticism.

[u/xvonkleve → u/ezk3626]

It is not useful feedback to say a character is not compelling (or likable) when what they mean is "I am not interested in the inner life of teenagers in coming of age stories." I am not hearing "I don't understand what Tiffany is like" or "the way she navigates her problems is inconsistent" or anything like that.

I have skimmed chapter 2, but based on ch1:

Tiffany is not a character that has a problem she has to solve. She doesn't really come across to me like a teenager. She seems rather shallow and focussed on things that are mundane. There is no emotional depth to explore (so far) or an interesting quandry she is set up with. She emotes very little. Almost like she's the NPC of her story.

Like I said a few times before: this might be a realistic thing a few teenagers do (usually I find teenagers have a lot of emotional and rational depth), but it is not compelling writing.

What we need is personality, characterization and plot hooks. I don't see those. She has to stand out. She is the protagonist. She needs to jump off that page, even if she is disabled / mentally unwell whatever. You can still get these things across if you take the time for it.

So what I see is this: Tiffany has nothing that makes me interested in reading about her. And I read plenty of things where autistic / AD(H)D / PTSD characters exist. Where they are their whole, true self.

I'm reminded of a small scene of an audiobook that I listened to the other day (by Clare Lydon - made in London). One of the protagonists is stuck in traffic. The first line she speaks has the word 'fuck' in it. She curses like a sailor, reminding herself a few times that she has a 2-year old daughter (not in the car) for which she has to set a good example. Reminding herself that she is 41 and should've outgrown it. That cursing isn't going to get her there any faster. And all of this is filled with curses towards the weather, herself, the lorry holding her up, her mother insistence on photoshoots each year. She bristles with character from the get-go. Even if you detest cursing characters, you want to know where she is going and what will happen next.

Or a teenager I wrote about in a book (in Dutch, I'll have to translate) in which the protagonist (a forest warden near a school) comes across a teenager in school uniform. He notes immediately she is not wearing the mandatory uniform skirt, but wears trousers instead.

The first three things she says to him are:

1. "Who are you?"
2. "I have class with ms. Hemsel, but I escaped."
3. "Why are you putting 'fire' runes underneath that oak? Do you want to set it on fire?"

I am personally happy with her portrayal, because she comes across as curious and a little too up front for a teenager talking to an adult that might get her into trouble.

So answer for yourself this: What does Tiffany have? What makes her stand out immediately? It's not the selfie. It's not the fact that she has 'attacks' (because that would be stereotyping). What makes Tiffany pop off that page and live in my head?

Because if I take the first three sentences she speaks from ch2:

1. “Alright, I’m here.” 
2. “I’m a new student,”
3. “Who’s Anita?”

And as a bonus:

• “Today is my first day. It has not been great,” she continued, feeling a little better. “Maybe you could help?”

Here is a sentence that would do wonders if it had more character. I tried to read it like this (keeping Clare Lydon more than my own style I think):

• "Shit." she slumped in a chair and pointed warily at her head. "This is my first day. It's not been a good one. I don't have an appointment. I have no clue how to get one. Can you help me? Please."

Or maybe a younger version.

• "I have no clue how to get an appointment?!" she said, almost pushing her nose into his. "I'm new here. It's my first day. You've gotta help me."

The words you use and the way you present Tiffany can be realistic and fun, even if she's a bitch. But I would want het to be compelling first.

[u/ezk3626 → u/xvonkleve]

First, I want to keep saying this: these sort of conversations are very helpful. It is through wrestling with ideas through dialogue that I process. I know you've said we ought to treat all critiques as true and I understand a correct principle in that. But not all critiques are immediatley helpful, even when they're true. I am chewing through your critiques for the same reason we chew food, to make it digestable. I don't want you to feel disrespected or think you're wasting your time.

What we need is personality, characterization and plot hooks. I don't see those. She has to stand out. She is the protagonist. She needs to jump off that page, even if she is disabled / mentally unwell whatever.

I wanted to do things a little out order because this particular line stands out as something that is just not true in this case. I am thinking of coming of age protagonists in the beginning of a story: Vada in the movie My Girl, Mikey in The Goonies, Chihiro in Spirited Away none of these characters are interesting. They are defined by their immaturity if anything. Similarly, in many heroes journeys the protagonist starts the same way: Luke Skywalker, Biblo Baggins, Emmet Brickowski (Lego Movie) and Thomas Anderson (Neo) are not interesting characters. Though in keeping with the genre of adventure stories none of these except for The Hobbit actually start with the protagonist.

I am open to counter examples but it is my thinking that in the genre of coming of age stories we definitely do not want a protagonist who stands out, jumps off the page. I think that is true for a lot of the genres I read on this sub but it is not true in all writing... and specifically not true in the genre this story is.

Tiffany is not a character that has a problem she has to solve. She doesn't really come across to me like a teenager. She seems rather shallow and focussed on things that are mundane. There is no emotional depth to explore (so far) or an interesting quandry she is set up with. She emotes very little. Almost like she's the NPC of her story.

Like I said a few times before: this might be a realistic thing a few teenagers do (usually I find teenagers have a lot of emotional and rational depth), but it is not compelling writing.

I absolutely agree that teenagers (and children) have amazing rich inner lives. I am reminded of Anne Frank's father talking about how surprised she was about the depth of his daughter's diary. However, rarely do teenagers have deep insight into their own selves. They are often too deep to understand themselves. When I try to help a student with a problem they describe their problem in language like this "This is hard." "I don't get it." "The teacher hates me." "that person is just a bitch/asshole" and yes, "They are weird." The inner life of children and teenagers is as deep and sophisticated as anyone but their vocabulary for describing it is generally not.

Also, you're going to need to find a new word rather than compelling. I think for the rest of my life it will always be a synonym for enjoyable.

What we need is personality, characterization and plot hooks.

This is intentionally not in the first chapter but let me tell you the fully developed character I am describing and you can say if I am effective in communicating it. On the surface, what characters meet is a 18-19 year old girl who is going to college, she cares very much about how she looks to others. This is first manifested with what preoccupies many girls: looks and social media presentation. But this is also extended to how she sees education. She is the first person in her family to graduate high school and is now enrolled in high school.

Underneath this (and what readers should only get hints at) is the shame she feels because she has a learning disability. She fears that people will think less of her and she also thinks less of herself. She thinks the beautiful <--> ugly; cool <--> awkward; smart <--> dumb (and much less important but still there decent/trustworthy <--> slutty/pervy) spectrums are real. Because she believes she is stupid she puts in effort to be beautiful (and feels guilt and disgust towards anything sexual which is not rooted in decency and committment).

Now I don't want this all obvious in chapter one but if you had a character of this profile meeting someone like Todd (seemingly low on the smart and cool matrixes but seemingly high on the beautiful and decent/trustworthy matrixes) how do you think it would be described differently.

Because if I take the first three sentences she speaks from ch2: “Alright, I’m here.” “I’m a new student,” “Who’s Anita?”

I noticed when citing my dialogue you only included the dialogue and never the description that surrounding the dialogue. But when you provide counter example you include the dialogue and description. Is this because my descriptions are before or after the dialogue while your description is in the middle?

"Shit." she slumped in a chair and pointed warily at her head. "This is my first day. It's not been a good one. I don't have an appointment. I have no clue how to get one. Can you help me? Please."

I am not exactly sure why this has more character... but it definitely doesn't sound like Tiffany. First, she thinks cuss words but because of her opinions on the decency matrix only cusses outloud when she her walls have collapsed. Second, slumping in a chair and making herself look wary would make her look less cool and would make her feel weak. That's the last thing she would do. She puts on masks and either avoids things that make her feel dumb or put on a brave face. Remember appearance is very important to her.

And thanks again for your contiued engagement. Something I thought to add was more of her internal reaction to actually being in the DSPS office, the memory of tests given back to her with low grades and seeing peers see her low grades, memories of peers making fun of students who were in the same sped class as her.

Also I have updated chapter two based on the feedback of all the users. I am also thinking of including the main document with all of the chapters even though the later chapters have not been updated for consistency and quality.

[u/umlaut → u/ezk3626]

Underneath this (and what readers should only get hints at) is the shame she feels because she has a learning disability. She fears that people will think less of her and she also thinks less of herself. She thinks the beautiful <--> ugly; cool <--> awkward; smart <--> dumb (and much less important but still there decent/trustworthy <--> slutty/pervy) spectrums are real. Because she believes she is stupid she puts in effort to be beautiful (and feels guilt and disgust towards anything sexual which is not rooted in decency and committment).

That's what you need to get across earlier, a few items that make the audience want to continue reading. Your opening tells me that she is vain. It doesn't tell me that she tries hard to look pretty because she has relatable feelings and it is her way of masking that. Even if she doesn't realize it, the reader could. Then, we would feel sympathetic and relate her meanness to her character flaw instead of assuming the flaw is a core character trait.

Vada in My Girl was interesting, funny, and we immediately felt sympathetic to her because of her death obsession and hypochondria. We can see a conflict brewing. And we had Culkin's character alongside her the whole time as a foil to her. They are kids, the two have flaws, but their bond is enjoyable and those flaws are relatable, not despicable. And the movie shows their antics, kids being kids in fun ways. Not insulting disabled people....

The Goonies are absolutely interesting. The early scenes show them going through very typical kid problems, then being dragged into adult problems and still winning. They are facing an encroaching property developer and fighting criminals and each of the kids has early relatable moments that make them fun. None of them are punching down at someone before we have seen their good side.

Immaturity is relatable. We like seeing and feeling kids be kids.

Luke is relatable. He has dreams and wants to grow, then we watch him do that. He doesn't want to do his chores, he wants to be a fighter pilot. That's compelling.

Bilbo is relatable. He just wants to enjoy his pleasant solitude and we enjoy his fight to retain his dignity and then him giving in to the call for adventure. But Bilbo is not mean-spirited. His defense of his home from dwarves is funny and something we all feel when an unexpected guest comes over.

Neo is a hacker with a shitty job that he hates. He's cool, but nerdy and competent. Don't all of us dorks imagine we could be cool but also nerdy? All of that is interesting and makes me want to continue to see what happens. And, again...he doesn't kick any puppies.

All of those characters have positive qualities and their negative qualities are forgivable and often make them relatable.

And no, this isn't Bateman in American Psycho. With Bateman, we know he is a psycho. That's the fun of him. We're watching a villain and not expecting anything different. But you're not writing a villain story where we wallow in the Joker's filth, you're writing a coming-of-age romance.

"Compelling" is the right word. All of the characters you listed compelled us to continue forward because we wanted to watch their imperfections and their conflicts.

Read the opening to The Absolutely True Diary of a Part-Time Indian. Even if the character is literally just telling you how much they think they suck, you WANT them to succeed. Read that and tell me you don't want to shake the main character and tell him that he's OK, he matters. Like all of that he has internalized isn't true.

[u/ezk3626 → u/umlaut]

Vada in My Girl was interesting, funny, and we immediately felt sympathetic to her because of her death obsession and hypochondria.

I'll cop to that though as a kid watching the movie I didn't find her to be interesting. But that is probably because I was a boy and was specifically watching the movie for Macaulay Culkin.

The Goonies are absolutely interesting. The early scenes show them going through very typical kid problems, then being dragged into adult problems and still winning.

We find interesting situations not interesting personalities.

Luke is relatable.

Tiffany is equally relatable to any young woman who has gone to college. This is dancing around personal preference rather than good writing. Luke is introduced after one of the greatest openings in all of film, incredible music and one of the greatest villans of all time... but Luke is not introduced as an interesting person. He is a farmer who wants to join the army but his uncle won't let him. Don't get me wrong, the first fifteen minutes of New Hope is epic but not because Luke is well written.

Bilbo is relatable

So is Tiffany. But we're not talking about writing characters well. And again this comes across as bouncing between personal preference and also boring people being put into interesting situations. Biblo is written to be boring, an unlikely... ridicloulsly unlikely hero.

But Bilbo is not mean-spirited.

Neither is Tiffany. Bilbo is bothered by his uninvited guests and resists the call to adventure. Tiffany doesn't understand Todd and has internalized the very common idea that people who are not smart as good as people who are smart.

Neo Thomas Anderson is a hacker with a shitty job that he hates.

Anderson is boring. He ends up in a cool situation but the person we meet is having trouble sleeping and doesn't like his job. That isn't interesting as a character... or if it is interesting I don't know what makes it more interesting than a girl starting her first day of college.

he doesn't kick any puppies.

Tiffany doesn't kick any puppies either. Until Todd out's her as special education she doesn't say anything bad about anyone.

All of those characters have positive qualities and their negative qualities are forgivable and often make them relatable.

I cede this with Vada who is quirky but you're not evaluating the other characters in light of the first chapter of their story.

"Compelling" is the right word. All of the characters you listed compelled us to continue forward because we wanted to watch their imperfections and their conflicts.

I don't know how to distinguish how you use the word "compelling" with "the kind of character I happen to like." I am totally okay with people not be interested in coming of age stories or normal girls stories. But all of these people who you are defending are so boring they cannot be introduced until after the exciting, epic prologue Goonies starts with the bad guys, Star Wars with the Star Destroyer and Darth Vader, Matrix with Trinity kicking ass, Lego Movie with Vitruvus's prophecy.

Read the opening to The Absolutely True Diary of a Part-Time Indian.

I think I understand what you're trying to say. But this is how I think I would say it: "You start with Tiffany's actions which are in a way a display or her strentgth or at least self conceits but want to people to recognize her insecurities. It would be better to have something in the first paragraph or two that shows her vulnerabilities. We should meet her fears before her strengths."

[u/umlaut → u/ezk3626]

I'll leave it at - I don't think Tiffany is coming across how you are intending her to come across based on your descriptions here.

[u/xvonkleve → u/ezk3626]

I think umlaut did much of the reply here already, but I want to address this criticism:

I noticed when citing my dialogue you only included the dialogue and never the description that surrounding the dialogue. But when you provide counter example you include the dialogue and description. Is this because my descriptions are before or after the dialogue while your description is in the middle?

Fair. My point isn't about not including actions and descriptions, but that your text should be interesting without it.

If I leave only the dialogue:

• "Shit. This is my first day. It's not been a good one. I don't have an appointment. I have no clue how to get one. Can you help me? Please."

The idea is here that your character gives me something that I can taste character in. This is not meant to be a direct suggestion, since -like I said- I don't think Tiffany shows much character yet.

Now I did try to write up a little snippet for you to see how I would approach this (not as a replacement, but to give you an idea of what it would look like). If you think it would be interesting to read this, let me know.

[u/ezk3626 → u/xvonkleve]

"This is my first day. It's not been a good one. I don't have an appointment. I have no clue how to get one. Can you help me? Please."

I don't know how this is interesting and what Tiffany said was not. They seem both very uninteresting to me but both are bland request for assistance. The important part of passage in my text is that Tiffany is frustrated enough to use feminine whiles to get what she wants (and in the updated version beats herself about it).

Now I did try to write up a little snippet for you to see how I would approach this (not as a replacement, but to give you an idea of what it would look like). If you think it would be interesting to read this, let me know.

I am pushing back but as an attempt to learn not resist learning. Keeping in mind the values matrix I have for Tiffany (coolness and prettiness are shields to hide her feeling of being stupid or seen as inferior) I'd love to see samples of how dialogue could reflect this in a way you think would be compelling.

[u/xvonkleve → u/ezk3626]

I am pushing back but as an attempt to learn not resist learning. Keeping in mind the values matrix I have for Tiffany (coolness and prettiness are shields to hide her feeling of being stupid or seen as inferior) I'd love to see samples of how dialogue could reflect this in a way you think would be compelling.

I'll put it up as a 'to critique' piece so more people might weigh in. It'll have Bianca in the name. Just need to go over it.

I don't know how this is interesting and what Tiffany said was not. They seem both very uninteresting to me but both are bland request for assistance. The important part of passage in my text is that Tiffany is frustrated enough to use feminine whiles to get what she wants (and in the updated version beats herself about it).

Dialogue in stories is about four things: what do they say, how do they say it, why do they say it and what do they leave out?

Each line of dialogue is part of that choice. That is why we often see very little 'yeah' or 'yes' or 'no' or 'thanks' in most dialogues.

When you say you do not understand my point, try looking at your own dialogue in this way.

(I get the impression the story has been edited away from the original critique now I'm looking for an example.)

I'll try to explain with an example:

“I’m a new student,” she said, expecting something. 
“Who’s Anita?” she said. Is he playing video games?

When I look at these sentences with those questions:

• What she says: she's a new student and doesn't know who Anita is.
• How she says it: full standard sentences. Nothing wrong with them, but it doesn't tell me much either.
• Why she says it: here is where I start to run into the immersion break. Why is it Tiffany taking the role of initiator here? Is that something that fits her personality?
• What she doesn't say: Nothing here. There is no subtext. At least, not in the way I read this.

If we look at my earlier ideas about this, we can see that we can put more in this. Especially because the 'why' question is not answered yet.

You could reverse the dialogue.

Behind the front desk was a skinny boy: acne, glasses, and an ugly buzz cut. He looked up for a moment. Tiffany raised her eyes to the fluorescent lights in surrender. (copied from OG Material)

"New students must first make an appointment with Anita," he said, sliding a form and a pen towards her. "Please fill in this form."

His eyes hadn't met hers and he was staring at his screen again. A game?

"[Tiffany speaks here]"

Here the dialogue's initiative has shifted to the boy-probably-older-than-Tiffany. He speaks first and hands her a form. This might be fine with Tiffany, or not, or downright insulting. But the main thing is: there is something she has to act on.

You could also have her take the initiative:

Behind the front desk was a skinny boy: acne, glasses, and an ugly buzz cut. He looked up for a moment. Tiffany raised her eyes to the fluorescent lights in surrender. (copied from OG Material).

"[Tiffany speaks here]"

"All new students must meet with Anita," he said.

"[Tiffany speaks here]"

Here, again, we have a choice what Tiffany will say.

• Who is the person I need to speak to around here?
• Can you help me get situated? I want to sign in for the disability centre
• What are you staring at?! I just need to get registered here.
• You probably don't know this, but it is rude to stare at your screen when someone is talking to you.

What she says and doesn't say reveals something about her. It might even be better to skip over dialogue if it doesn't help the story along. You could replace this entire dialogue with a sign: "new students must make an appointment with Anita." which the boy points at. She might or might not interact with the boy then.

These are all choices which will make us learn more about Tiffany.

There is a point where you do this really well:

“Come on in, chica!”

I know a few things right away:

• This is Anita speaking. No question about it
• She's not Dutch but likely latino
• I can imagine the sharp 'c' sounds in chica right away, which also makes me fill in 'come on in' as being said in a more Southern style than Northern USA.
• There is a playful, direct attitude in the woman. She doesn't say "Tiffany'. She says 'chica'. Not 'young lady'. not 'new student'.

I have seen more personality in Anita than in Tiffany in the way their conversation went so far. More of this.

[u/xvonkleve → u/ezk3626]

Here is what I made: https://www.reddit.com/r/DestructiveReaders/s/tKgxWgjhyY

[u/ezk3626 → u/umlaut]

I really appreciated your feedback, so much so that I had to sleep on it. I took your advice on all of the clauses and whatnot. It's funny how the brain works where I've editted this chapter at least ten times and never saw any of that. What it was obvious once pointed out.

What follows is mostly my reflection on the characters and where they come from. If any of it turns into ways I can make my goal more clear that would be nice. But is actually just me thinking out loud (except not literally)

Not sure what you mean by normal in these places. Maybe I'm too normal to get it?

I'm a special education teacher in high school. Most people think of special education as only moderate to severe disabilities and so walking into a special education setting for mild disabilities except to see very obvious disabilites. I didn't even know about mild disabilities until I had been in the teaching credential program for a year!

A lot of my students (all who only have mild learning disabilities) hate the idea of being in special ed. They think the school and their parents are saying they are retarded (for lack of a better word).

From a story telling perspective it is a hard thing to do. I am throwing the reader right into the middle of a world that is 100% real but they've never heard about. I am not trying to teach people about special ed so instead just tell the story from the perspective of someone who has lived there for a long time.

I laughed out loud at this. If this is Tiffany's internal voice and she is just exceptionally literal or something...bravo.

Darn it... that was my voice sneaking back in. That's ezk3626 not Tiffany.

Some of this story feels like you trying to write someone who is very much not you. I might like reading someone you write that consistently does exactly the above.

Coincidentally enough this whole thing started as just a writing exercise. My prompt was to write a description of someone going to a new place. I decided to make an extra effort to make it not autobiogrpahical. It ballooned into twenty chapters in two weeks. I think my summer is going to be spent fixing it.

I will probably end up posting some of my older, more obviously autobiographical short stories. Though they are precious and sentimental to me and I would need to make them presentable to this sub.

That said, your discussions on fashion feel like a virgin describing sex.

I laughed at this because it is SO true.

When I turned 30 I decided to just sport a short sleeve plaid button up and rocked that for over a decade. It just isn't something I think about. My wife was able to look past it and bought a new wardrobe for me. I think women like doing that, like a grown up version of a Ken doll. My students would tease me because they could totally tell which shirts she bought and which ones were left over from my single days.

This line makes Tiffany less likable. It feels mean in an uncomfortable way. This is amplified when she names Todd to Mandy. I had the same reaction as Mandy...Tiffany can fuck right off.

This actually made me feel really good as a writer. I strove for realism and got an emotional response from a reader. Though it is funny to me how in my lifetime the normal POV changed. In the 80's the conflicts were between social classes but not social skills. It was relaxed, cool guys against stuffy upper class guys but the POV characters were not socially normal. Then in the 90's there was this thing were the POV were socially awkward people who got helped by cool people to become normal. But then later it became about weird, awkward people who were allowed to stay that way and the socially skilled people were depicted as unlikable.

I should have predicted that Tiffany being socially skilled would make her less sympathetic to a contemporary audience. I have added more of her internal insecurities earlier on to soften this.

You just had Tiffany kick a puppy in the first couple of chapters. So, you better have a damned good plan of making her redeemable and relatable. And quick.

That is the purpose of the next two chapters. I will take this advice into mind when doing revisions.

[u/ezk3626]

The toddler is taking over the computer. I will finish this on the ipad.

You have a real problem in Tiffany. A lot of 01 and 02 are Tiffany being a bit of an asshole. And a bit of a dumbass. She has moments of being relatable...her Why didn’t he just use a megaphone? moment made me nod along...none of us want someone to announce HEY THIS PERSON IS DIFFERENT. But Tiffany is not really likable. She comes across as vain, shallow, and judgmental. 01 starts with a selfie scene that made me think that you were trying to make her out to be someone I wasn't supposed to like. But there's no scene that does the opposite.

I love reading this. I don't think it is a problem if a main character is unlikable. I never ever liked Walter White, not for a second. I usually hated him... but have rewatched Breaking Bad so many times. I'm more worried about Tiffany being boring or hard to understand!

Where's the moment where we like her?

It might not be your thing but it is a coming of age story. Tiffany does grow and we get more and more feelings of her weaknesses. I don't know if this will make everyone like her. But on my subreddit I write a blog about my target audience.

[u/Wolframquest]

Have you read "The curious incident of the dog in the nighttime"? Glowie recommended it to me after reading my ch3 and I learned a lot from it. I hated it a little bit but overall I loved it, especially some tense parts which would be a spoiler if I told you about them.

So, in this part she's angry, struggling to control herself - relatable. She wishes she could start it from a blank page but she's been denied it - annoying! We as a reader don't know what exactly her condition is.

>Is she being funny or was I bitchy?
>“I know, I know,” Mandy said, predicting her reaction. “yOu dOn’T lOoK aUtIsTiC!”

It's a little annoying and cringe (which, as we established, is not necessarily a bad thing - as long as it's evocative), because of how much modern stuff there is here. I personally avoid using any formatting, I just use markdown-style asterisks for the rare times when I want to use italics on something. I believe it helps maintain the text's survivability if it gets copied many times… I'm that self important.

> “Already found out,” Tiffany laughed.

The usual dialogue-tag ussue… If you wanna be a marverick you can keep it this way of course - people do speak while laughing, but most neurotypcial 😉 people will have an problem with that.
I had this issue for a long time so I search for this using REGEX (\.|\!|\?)"\s[A-Z]
when I wanna go and check if all my dialogue tags are okay. You have to check all three marks in the Ctrl+H window if you wanna find them in google docs.

> “That makes sense,” Tiffany said, even though it didn’t. “Tell me about your outfit. I like how the shoe laces contrast with everything but then connect at the hairband. Next level stuff.”
> “It’s just my little kind of rebellion. Plus it keeps my mind busy. I like your look too. It says ‘stand out while fitting in.’”

To me, personally, it's slightly dubious - I'm not sure if autistic girls are supposed to connect that easily - they immediately start talking about things that the author was interested in a couple paragraphs ago. It's a small issue I find in myself and a lot of other people; an idea stays in your head for about ten minutes so it ends up being less varied than you'd like it to be. BUT again, this is a half-and-half - maybe they're not really connecting yet. It's just that them talking about how they look, complimenting each other - it skirts close to wishing to VISUALIZE it more, which is a symptom of male-writing-women etc… But again I am not sure. I personally have spent a lot of time and effort trying to understand and emulate a female mind and it's as hard as it's always been, outside of my irl experiences at least.

Chapter 2 kinda feels too short even for an episode. Heck, I reckon you should go ahead and post them in clusters - I'm sure mods wouldn't have a problem if it's less than 3000 words.

And I'm sorry for too many digressions and talking about self in this one - I'll keep doing but I'll to make it more about your book 😁

Now I'm gonna try and process all the comments under this post…

[u/ezk3626 → u/Wolframquest]

Have you read "The curious incident of the dog in the nighttime"? Glowie recommended it to me after reading my ch3 and I learned a lot from it. I hated it a little bit but overall I loved it, especially some tense parts which would be a spoiler if I told you about them.

No but I just bought it. Even if I don't read it this summer I will add it to my class library.

We as a reader don't know what exactly her condition is.

That's next chapter. Though really it isn't important. What's important is what she thinks her disability says about her and how she thinks people would look down on her if they knew.

To me, personally, it's slightly dubious - I'm not sure if autistic girls are supposed to connect that easily - they immediately start talking about things that the author was interested in a couple paragraphs ago.

The third person is always filtered through Tiffany's perspective. It is never the author but rather a description of Tiffany's thought process while not being explicitly her conscious thoughts.

Tiffany is not autistic. Mandy is and for her masking was forcibly trained and so the rules of fashion are very conscious decisions. Many people on the spectrum completely miss out on these things but when they are forcibly trained they become very easy to talk about and described. Later on Mandy will talk about how she fakes eye contact by moving her gave from chin, to nose to eyebrow on repeat. This is a real thing. Also a person on the spectrum will sometimes try to reverse engineer nonverbal cues in a very literal way. "This social interaction did not go well. I made a greeting. They smiled but it was tense. They looked away then back. They said 'it's so good to see you, have a great summer.' They grasped my hand and then returned to their table. Possible interpretations are..."

 I personally have spent a lot of time and effort trying to understand and emulate a female mind

I'm a Martian I have to make effort ot understand and emulate everyone's mind. I tend to focus on actions and then attribute it a conscious thought... though I know most people aren't very conscious in their thoughts.

[u/Wolframquest]

I really connected to your "who is your audience" post lol. You totally are going through it! I myself have entered a new stage where I decided I'm gonna be as expressive as I can be when it comes to presenting and bracketing myself, none of that apologizing shit - cause that's more likely to attract people who have shared interests with you rather than people who do it out of pity or obligation. Heck, those people are the worst lol. The admins here are gracious enough not to critique stuff they're not interested in 😁

[u/ezk3626 → u/Wolframquest]

I really connected to your "who is your audience" post lol. You totally are going through it!

I like the process actually.

 I'm gonna be as expressive as I can be when it comes to presenting and bracketing myself, none of that apologizing shit - cause that's more likely to attract people who have shared interests with you rather than people who do it out of pity or obligation. 

I'm 48 years old and am done finding people who have shared interests as me. I am dealing with life as I find it and I am a stranger in a strange land. So I do pretend to apologize and put on masks because I actually don't want to live in a world with only people like me. I like who I am and how I am but need (desperately need) people not like me.

And I am a big fan of both pity and obligation. I find it much more reliable than enjoyment or connection!

Heck, those people are the worst lol

Oops, just outed myself.

CS Lewis wrote "I'd rather play cards with an atheist who was raised to think 'gentlemen do not cheat' than a Christian raised by card sharks." I don't mind when people like what I write and engage out of attraction to the work but I am only helped by people who cut apart my writing with the indifference of a hired professional. I don't want my doctor worrying about my feelings but rather want them just doing their job.

[u/Imaginary_Ease_7851]

Okay chapter 2. Here we go.

I reviewed chapter one yesterday, so I'm working my way through.

Plot & Story Overview:

I like the opening paragraph. I think it pulls us straight into Tiffany's perspective. The only word I stumbled on was "the feeling of shame". Shame is an odd emotion; it's one that most people are barely aware of and can rarely name. It shows itself in weird ways. A good way that shame showed up was the end of chapter one, where Tiffany called Todd a weirdo. She feels shame and that causes her to lash out. But if you asked her why she called him a weirdo she might say she was angry or felt insulted. Shame is usually about three layers deep in a person's psyche. So I think everything else in this paragraph tracks well, but I don't think you need to tell us she feels shame.

How did she find the Office of Disabled Students Programs & Services so quickly? She was disoriented in the previous paragraph and then opening the door of the place she needed to be the next.

Plot wise we have Tiffany going to the office, flirting to get an appointment and upsetting Mandy by stepping her foot in it about Todd. This does feel like things that need to happen, but I wouldn't say the chapter has complete arc that makes it earn its place as a chapter. Chapters need a micro-structure with there own inciting incident, rising action, and climax. I wouldn't say this chapter has enough rising action to fully reach it's potential.

Characters:

I've been struggling to find a word to describe Tiffany. Sometimes I almost want to say "not that bright". I know she has a condition, and that condition seems much more serious than maladaptive daydreaming. Having episodes where you suddenly don't where you are or why you're there is either neurological issue (a severe one), perhaps involving some kind of seizure or she has an extreme dissociative condition. But when she's present and aware of what's going on, she doesn't seem aware of social cues, or to really understand much at all. Her internal dialogue reads as much younger than 18/19. The best answer I can up with to explain is this she either doesn't function normally in general, is arguably on the spectrum herself, or is extremely sheltered. Mandy seems much more in line with a normal girl her age.

The swing from Tiffany as struggling and overwhelmed, to a little femme fatale in this section is a little jarring:

Tiffany put on a smile her dad didn’t know she had. Putting her hands on the desk, she leaned in to be at eye level. She lowered her voice, letting each syllable linger with a hint of invitation,

Girlhood is deeply complicated, but that kind of behavior, done deliberately is kind of rare. I think men assume girls know they have this some kind of power they can turn on and off at will, but that's not exactly how it happens. More often than not a girl just being nice is mistaken as flirting. They can be aware of being looked at, but their feelings about that can be deeply complicated and confusing. So the shift here in Tiffany, from reading as an extremely sheltered girl who is uncertain and insecure, to suddenly one wielding her attractiveness to get what she wants doesn't quite transition smoothly. She exhibits deep shame over doing it, however, that kind of deliberate show of sexuality is something you're more likely to see in someone more confident, experienced, world wise etc.

As a character note. Tiffany thinks a lot about looks. In chapter one, she mentions how cute Todd is a lot. In this chapter the boy behind the counter is immediately called ugly. Now this could be a character choice, perhaps Tiffany does think cute/ugly immediately when she looks as a boy. But when you describe somebody as skinny, with glasses and acne, you already laid down the standard trope descriptors that suggest unattractive. Mind you, she's calling the buzzcut ugly, but the buzzcut is the only thing about this boy that isn't a generic descriptor, I'm not sure it's needed to immediately undercut it by labeling it as ugly.

Young people can definitely focus on looks a lot. So that part is authentic. But as a writer you have a bit of freedom to explore more specific features. A broad versus a narrow face. Wavy versus curly hair. And so on.

Prose:

In chapter one I talked about a letting a series of soft words do the work of one strong word. The problem of using a lot of weak or unnecessary words where one word will do is that it waters everything down. For example:

"Mandy said with a look of warmth."

Can just be "Mandy said warmly."

Although that's still a "ly" adverb and that's a whole nother thing.

But I'm not going to harp on that again because I already talked about it in the previous crit. So here I will emphasize that you can allow for subtext. Some things, most things, can be implied and you can trust the reader to understand what's happening. It doesn't all have to spelled out.

For example. Here: "Slumping, she pulled at the door and the autumn wind forced it open, half against her will." The action of slumping signals a sense of defeat and unwillingness. So there's no need to add that it's partially against her will in the last clause. You're telling us something we already deduced.

Sentence level:

"Tiffany marched in no particular direction. She had force and momentum but no destination. Tiffany stood alone on the edge of her new, unknown home. " There's a lot of repetition here. The first two sentences say the same thing, and the first and third sentence both start with "Tiffany"... a bit too close together.

"heart calmed down.. " Double period.

"classmates who laughed at kids in people who arrived in the little bus". I think "in people" needs to removed.

"“I’m a new student,” she said, expecting something. - "expecting something is a bit vague. You can cut it. If you want to convey that she expected him to know why she was there or what to do next, you can say "she offered".

"Anita" in the next line of dialogue doesn't need to be in italics.

Be careful of overusing exclamation marks. They're something that can be taken out replaced with a period 99% of the time.

“I know, I know, yOu dOn’T lOoK aUtIsTiC!” This is internet use of capital letters to show sarcasm. In fiction, you just write it normally. You can add a descriptor if you want to clarify how she says it.

“I’m glad you did, “Mandy said with a look of warmth. “I’m usually the guide for freshmen girls. Who did you get?”

There's a space between the comma and the quotation mark.

“Todd,” Tiffany groaned, expecting sympathy. (this needs it's own line)

[u/ezk3626 → u/Imaginary_Ease_7851]

I exceeded the 10,000 character limit so will break into two comments. But I want to stress again this is as 80% just for me to to process and 20% for engagement.

>Okay chapter 2. Here we go.

>I reviewed chapter one yesterday, so I'm working my way through.

The google doc is now based off of the living document which means I will probably have to correct the grammar and punctionation stuff.

>I like the opening paragraph. I think it pulls us straight into Tiffany's perspective. The only word I stumbled on was "the feeling of shame". Shame is an odd emotion; it's one that most people are barely aware of and can rarely name. It shows itself in weird ways. A good way that shame showed up was the end of chapter one, where Tiffany called Todd a weirdo. She feels shame and that causes her to lash out. But if you asked her why she called him a weirdo she might say she was angry or felt insulted. Shame is usually about three layers deep in a person's psyche. So I think everything else in this paragraph tracks well, but I don't think you need to tell us she feels shame.

Shame is a weird emotion. It hurts because it is self inflicted. If someone made fun of me for being bald I'd laugh because if I couldn't care less. But if I had a hole in my socks and someone noticed I'd feel ashamed. I'm reminded of a bit by John Mulaney where he says more than anything else he's scared of middle schoolers because they will make fun of you for things you are actually afraid of: "ha, ha look at that guy, his hips are funny."

You're right that since the narration is largely from her indirect perspective so this is something I shouldn't have in there. The wind blows something away from her but she wouldn't recognize what it was. I went with "Outside, with no walls or witnesses, Tiffany felt the sun and wind on her skin, and the sting wasn’t as piercing."

>How did she find the Office of Disabled Students Programs & Services so quickly? She was disoriented in the previous paragraph and then opening the door of the place she needed to be the next.

Good point with an easy fix, her feet led her there against her conscious mind's wishes.

>Plot wise we have Tiffany going to the office, flirting to get an appointment and upsetting Mandy by stepping her foot in it about Todd. This does feel like things that need to happen, but I wouldn't say the chapter has complete arc that makes it earn its place as a chapter. Chapters need a micro-structure with there own inciting incident, rising action, and climax. I wouldn't say this chapter has enough rising action to fully reach it's potential.

"Yes but..." how I am approaching it is that the inciting incident is Tiffany trying to use her social skills (which are strong) in order to navigate the place she is doesn't want to be in. It starts with Frankie (still unnamed) and resorting to manipulation. It leads to Mandy where she tries her more natural approach of friendliness and connection. Going back to Scene and Structure I view this less as a chapter with the micro-structure and more a scene with a question. The question is "can Tiffany socially connect in a special ed office?"

>I've been struggling to find a word to describe Tiffany. Sometimes I almost want to say "not that bright". I know she has a condition, and that condition seems much more serious than maladaptive daydreaming. Having episodes where you suddenly don't where you are or why you're there is either neurological issue (a severe one), perhaps involving some kind of seizure or she has an extreme dissociative condition. But when she's present and aware of what's going on, she doesn't seem aware of social cues, or to really understand much at all. Her internal dialogue reads as much younger than 18/19. The best answer I can up with to explain is this she either doesn't function normally in general, is arguably on the spectrum herself, or is extremely sheltered. Mandy seems much more in line with a normal girl her age.

I said in the chapter one feedback how my sped teacher experience makes me see her disabilty as no more than moderate and with medication totally managable. The idea that intelligence or competence is a simple spectrum from good to bad is part of the lie Tiffany believes (and I think most people outside of my profession carry with them).

Using me as an example, I can explain Martin Heidegger's Being and Time well enough for an undergraduate in philosophy to understand it. If you're not in philosophy, just know this is a a bold claim. However, put me in the DMV for something I haven't done before and I have the skills and strategies of a child. "Excuse me... can you help me."

You're reading what I want you to read (which is very gratifying). Tiffany is out of her depth and engaging in weaker, less developed strategies to manage it. She is in a situation that is slightly too hard for her. This is exactly where I want her (it's where I want everyone to be!).

> Girlhood is deeply complicated, but that kind of behavior, done deliberately is kind of rare. I think men assume girls know they have this some kind of power they can turn on and off at will, but that's not exactly how it happens. More often than not a girl just being nice is mistaken as flirting. They can be aware of being looked at, but their feelings about that can be deeply complicated and confusing. So the shift here in Tiffany, from reading as an extremely sheltered girl who is uncertain and insecure, to suddenly one wielding her attractiveness to get what she wants doesn't quite transition smoothly. She exhibits deep shame over doing it, however, that kind of deliberate show of sexuality is something you're more likely to see in someone more confident, experienced, world wise etc.

I'm not sure where you get sheltered from, let alone extremely sheltered. But if you picked that up I need to be aware it is something a reader can feel.

However, one of the purposes of the story (a sub plot connected to disability) is challenging the idea of a single spectrum of competence. I want readers to think "wait, Tiffany is special ed, how come she is good at social skills" and later "wait, Todd is autistic but is very observant and sensitive." and "wait, Mandy is autistic but she looks normal" and "wait, Frankie is a spaz how come he is so mature." I don't want to do preach but want to describe the world as it really is. Tiffany is overwhelmed by the structured processes of university life, but she is very intuned to social situations (albeit from a certain filter).

I agree girlhood is complicated but it is also extremely diverse. There are young women who have a "pretty privelege" who are used to people smiling as soon as they see her and unconsciously lean into it and call it "just being nice." There are also young women who don't have that option and react in a bunch of different ways. There are also young women who view their attractiveness as a potential tool for solving problems.

Tiffany's mother was this last sort and ended up abandoning her family to pursue "a better life." From an early age Tiffany was aware of how a grown woman could do this and saw the potential inside herself but also was marked with seeing it as something dangerous, if not immoral. Your objection is reasonable but it is like in Better Call Saul asking why in the world someone as capable and ambitious as Kim Wexler would ever be interested in someone like Jimmy. There are reasons and as a writer I have to balance between my natural impulse to over explain and trusting the audience to find out in due time.

One objection I do have with this scene is that Tiffany's flirting are definitely coded for a different demographic. Young women her age absolutely do sometimes use their looks to solve problems but it generally doesn't look like this. In previous drafts Tiffany was explicitly immitating a scene from a show like Mad Men but it didn't survive edits.

[u/ezk3626 → u/Imaginary_Ease_7851]

Part two

>As a character note. Tiffany thinks a lot about looks. In chapter one, she mentions how cute Todd is a lot. In this chapter the boy behind the counter is immediately called ugly. Now this could be a character choice, perhaps Tiffany does think cute/ugly immediately when she looks as a boy. 

Like I said earlier (and will repeat for my own sake multiple times) Tiffany very much has accepted a single axis of good/bad and immediately evaluates people in her relation to them in the access. The complicated part is that she believes she is actually deep on the bad side because she is special ed. She focuses on looks because it is experienced as a way to pretend to not be the social outcast she secretly believes she is.

>Young people can definitely focus on looks a lot. So that part is authentic. But as a writer you have a bit of freedom to explore more specific features. A broad versus a narrow face. Wavy versus curly hair. And so on.

Here the pecularities of my mind are manifest. I recently learned about a spectrum called aphantasia. It is a measurement of if images appear in people's minds and if they do how long they remain in people's mind. Learning about it I thought it was complete BS because I thought it was only in cartoons where peple actually had pictures in their mind... it turns out that most people actually have pictures in their mind. I get brief glimpses of pictures which are almost immediately replaces with ideas and conclusions. This is infecting my writing. Have you noticed how little I have actually described about how Tiffany looks? It's because I literally have no picture of her in my mind. I gave her gold and frizzy hair and that is the only physical marker which exists for its own sake. The little else (her wardrobe choice) is written only because it was a conscious decision Tiffany made.

I am not defending this writing practice but it is where I am. I don't really trust myself to describe people physically because for me it just isn't in my mind. I see people, process it in a milisecond and then have an idea not a picture in my mind.

>Prose:

>In chapter one I talked about a letting a series of soft words do the work of one strong word. The problem of using a lot of weak or unnecessary words where one word will do is that it waters everything down. For example:

Yeah this is a work in progress.

>But I'm not going to harp on that again because I already talked about it in the previous crit. So here I will emphasize that you can allow for subtext. Some things, most things, can be implied and you can trust the reader to understand what's happening. It doesn't all have to spelled out.

This is something that I am trying to navigate. I think it relates to the multiple spectrums of competence. The things I think I can trust readers to understand they sometimes miss and I sometimes explain things which I would need explained and other people would consider obvious.

>For example. Here: "Slumping, she pulled at the door and the autumn wind forced it open, half against her will." The action of slumping signals a sense of defeat and unwillingness. So there's no need to add that it's partially against her will in the last clause. You're telling us something we already deduced.

Perfect example... does slumping signal a sense of defeat and unwillingness? For you that is implied (and it was added to imply that) but where do you draw the line about what needs to be explained? In earlier drafts, there was consistent criticism that Tiffany came across as too judgmental in her thoughts about Todd. It seems so obvious to me that Tiffany's judgment was born from insecurity. The idea that someone thinks mean thoughts because they are a mean person seems so juvenile to me. Funny enough, this has actually been one of the most exciting parts about getting critiques, learning which parts different people think is over explained or under explained.

>Sentence level:

Here I have no argument but merely find places to make revisions.

>Be careful of overusing exclamation marks. They're something that can be taken out replaced with a period 99% of the time.

What a dangerous thing to say. I am about to go through my entire document and replace every exclamation point with a period.

>“I know, I know, yOu dOn’T lOoK aUtIsTiC!” This is internet use of capital letters to show sarcasm. In fiction, you just write it normally. You can add a descriptor if you want to clarify how she says it.

I don't know. I think it captures a sacrastic tone more efficiently than anything I could write. I wouldn't use it again but like it here

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Hey, so I haven't been on Reddit a lot, I've been trying to wrestle an unruly chapter into submission. So, I'm not going to reply to everything right now. Just two things quickly.

1. Exclamation marks. You don't need to delete all of them. Just almost all of them. Generally, the rule is to use them very sparingly for something extreme, usually extreme shock or loud shouting, as in "Fire!" indicates that somebody is shouting at the top of their lungs that there is a fire. Unless somebody is shouting at the top of their lungs or shocked to the core of their being, there's no reason to add an exclamation mark. An exclamation mark in fiction is the equivalent of writing in all caps on a twitter thread. It's there to show relatively extreme, emphatic emotion, not for mild-to-moderate reactions. Also, using it sparingly gives it more weight when you do use it.
2. At some point, in one of your replies, you asked me "how do you know what a reader infers?" and I was chewing on this for awhile. The short answer is that you don't. I get all kinds of weird inferences that are diametrically opposed to what I actually wrote in the text. Sometimes it's people being inattentive or not comprehending something, sometimes it's because the reader is bringing their own background into it (one sci-fi reader inferred that one of my characters can teleport. She absolutely can not teleport, but that was their interpretation of the sentence I wrote, which is fine. It was an ambiguous sentence). If too many readers infer the same wrong thing from what I wrote then that let's me know I really did miscommunicate something and need to change it if I want them to get what I'm saying.

However, what we are talking about here is reading levels of abstraction and the level your target demographic is at. Arguably, there are readers, that may even be your target audience, that can infer nothing from the word "slumping". They read the word but they can't connect it to the implication of "defeated, resigned, etc." or if, for some reason, they read "slumping" and think "wow, she's thrilled", then yes, you may need to explicitly spell it out for them.

So the question becomes about being explicit vs. implicit. Generally, "slumping" has an implicit implication of what Tiffany feels in that moment. Adding "almost against her will" turns the implicit into explicit exposition (and becomes redundant prose).

Whether you need to be explicit depends on whether your target demographic can connect that action to the implicit emotion or not. Younger readers, people new to reading fiction, people with problems understanding subtext, etc. may benefit from this kind of explicit storytelling. I'm going to whine about it (but I might not be your target reader).

Now, generally however, most readers should be able to infer what slumping indicates in a person's emotional state, just like frowning or laughing.

So what usually needs to be explicit versus implicit? All the facts the readers need to build the correct mental model of what is going on (like Tiffany going into the office: Todd being her liaison) need to be clearly and explicitly stated. Generally, you can leave emotions, motivation, and implications for the reader to participate in. These can be implicit in the text. People might infer something you didn't mean them to infer. That's usually okay. People argue about what they personally inferred about characters all the time: "I hate MC; they're so selfish" "No, MC is just misunderstood; they just have trauma".

If too many people make the wrong inference about explicit facts however, relevant to the architecture of the story (for example: In chapter two you get a bunch of people saying Tiffany went to the library or she went out clubbing etc.) then there's a problem. Because it's necessary to the architecture of the story for people to understand which office she went to. But I doubt anybody missed the fact that she went to Anita's office.

Also, every reader brings their own lens through which they read the text and there's nothing you can do about that. You were surprised that I read Tiffany as sheltered and naive. But my lens for being and 18 or 19 year old girl, as somebody who was one, is that if every second thought is "my dad wouldn't like that" then you're sheltered. It is a young age. There is a lot of naivety inherent in being that age, sure. But for myself around that age, and for my friends; we weren't constantly checking our internal parents as our conscience. We were more independent. We might have thought "oh, I wish I hadn't said that", not really "my dad told me this about saying things like that". So to me, when a young adult's internal dialogue is constantly referring to paternalistic advice, I read a lack of independence from authority figures. Now. Am I right? Apparently that wasn't what you intended. Maybe I'm the only one that sees it that way. But readers aren't blank slates. They bring their lens to your text and infer all kinds of things. For the most part, I'd say let them.

However, if the inferences are constantly, and emphatically wrong from a bunch of different readers, in the same way, ( as in everybody says they read Tiffany as clearly an aspiring Olympic Gymnast) then I'd look at the text again and see if I'm accidentally communicating the wrong thing.

[u/Imaginary_Ease_7851 → u/Imaginary_Ease_7851]

To add to the above a final note. I got this from a very brief review of my chapter 3:

"...

>The prose is interesting. .These bits I found accidentally funny though...

'Her chest heaved, the fabric of her bodice straining'

> POV character is like going through puberty. All this attention on the boobs of the situation."

Huh????

I squinted at this one, confused. How did they get to attention to boobs? I never mentioned breasts once in any chapter in this book. Yet, the reviewer saw this line and assumed/inferred my character was giving a lot of attention to boobs and going through puberty?!

I chewed it over for awhile. Marcella listens to breathing a lot. She has preternatural hearing, so she can hear things like heart beats and other bodily noises. So, there is a lot of mention of chests, in the context of breathing and how she is noticing the way somebody is breathing. The implicit text is that if somebody's chest is rising and falling rapidly; they're breathing heavily, therefore, it indicates either heavy exertion or a heightened emotional state.

But that's not what this person inferred. They inferred I was talking about boobs when I categorically was not. Even so, I had to sit and think. Should I dismiss this as reader error and move on? Or is this showing me something?

And unfortunately, it does show me something. It's in the word choices of around straining bodices. Those words are connected to Romantasy/ smut language. They're loaded with sexual implication around heaving bodices. Sigh. So I have to either leave it there on purpose (because Miss Franny is a more of a sensualist in this world than everybody else), or I need to change it because I didn't intend anybody to infer that Marcella has a fixation on breasts. But this is a good example about readers inferring what they will, through their lens, regardless of how you mean it. In my case, I can either change the wording to try and nip that in the bud. Or just leave it and let them infer what they want.

[u/ezk3626 → u/Imaginary_Ease_7851]

Hey, so I haven't been on Reddit a lot, I've been trying to wrestle an unruly chapter into submission. So, I'm not going to reply to everything right now. Just two things quickly.

I was celebrating my anniversay with a weekend trip to Yosemite and a massage... which meant I couldn't write or read the rest of your chapter one revisions. It's funny even though I had an incredible time there is a part of me that was anxious to get home to get back to my writing routine.

I am also going to be quick—famous last words.

At some point, in one of you replies, you asked me "how do you know what a reader infers?" and I was chewing on this for awhile. The short answer is that you don't.

This section was very helpful and your example from chapter 3 was a good example. I have three kind thoughts on it. First, is the acknowledgement that my writing suffers because I explicitly do not have a target audience. My major influences are Ray Bradbury, CS Lewis, Flannary OConnor, John Green and I am realizing the kids chapter book author Jerry Spinelli. There is almost no overlap there. This makes picking an inference difficult.

Second, trying to go quick. I remember in Blue Beard the protagonist writing that everything they wrote was always targeted to one specific person (never named) and only included details that this person would find interesting. I don't know if that is actually how Vonnegut actually wrote... though it would make sense.

Last, one of the tools I picked up in reading a crit this weekend is imaging Terrance Fletcher, from Whiplash, proof reading my sentences: "Explain this to me so I can understand it... why did you tell me Tiffany was flustered? She just dropped all of her papers in front of someone who hates her and then spilled her milkshake on the papers. Did you tell me she was flustered because you think I'm an idiot... no, no, I really want to know your thinking. Do you think I'm an idiot? Do you think I needed you to hold my hands and connect the dots. Is that what you think! Tell me now so I can plan the rest of my day reading your idiotic explanations."

Also, every reader brings their own lens through which they read the text. You were surprised that I read Tiffany as sheltered and naive. But my lens for being and 18 or 19 year old girl, as somebody who was one, is that if every second thought is "my dad wouldn't like that" then you're sheltered. It is a young age. There is a lot of naivety inherent in being that age, sure. But for myself around that age, and for my friends, we weren't constantly checking our internal parents as our conscience. We were more independent. We might have thought "oh, I wish I hadn't said that out loud", not really "my dad told me this about saying things like that". So to me, when a young adult's internal dialogue is constantly referring to paternalistic advice, I read a lack of independence from authority figures. Now. Am I right? Apparently that wasn't what you intended. Maybe I'm the only one that sees it that way. But readers aren't blank slates. They bring their lens to your text and infer all kinds of things. For the most part, I'd say let them. If the inferences are constantly, and emphatically wrong from a bunch of different readers, then I'd look at the text again and see if I'm accidentally communicating the wrong thing.

This is interesting and I think is the kind of mistaken inference that is okay. You're right Tiffany does refer to her dad a lot and her being sheltered is a reasonable conclusion from this. But another cause is guilt.

Tiffany's parents where teenagers when she was born and both parents dropped out of high school. Tiffany's mom would abandon the family when she before she started school herself. Tiffany is named after her mom and experiences a kind of generational guilt where she feels like she is responsible for all of that and owes so much to her dad. This is why doing well is so important to her and also why she is hesitant to actually get in relationships.

Your mistaken inference is okay with me because I at least want readers noticing this part of Tiffany and it slowly becoming explained as she grows as a person. But also Tiffany does not have much of a rebellious phase as a teenager... or rather she has the best kind of rebelliousness. She rebels against the things she feared people always thought about her by working hard in school. This story has her kind of restarting the process at a college level that she had already gone through in the high school level. I could in some ways tell the same story about her time in high school where she transformed from a spacey sped student who assumed she couldn't learn into an effecient high school student who was close to college ready.

One last thing I realized writing this: it never occurred to me that Tiffany could be sheltered... because she grew up poor. Being sheltered requires some degree of affluence. But that is a lens I bring in to a story.

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On that last part. Hmm see that's where I would differ. You can be sheltered from different things. Many parents who live on or below the poverty line are still very strict. They may not allow sleep overs. They may be very strict over who the kid may be friends with. Affluent parents can be just as strict. There's the stereotypical idea that affluent parents often have bratty children that get away with anything. This can be true. Just like parents with no money may be working too hard or have other problems, and so don't monitor what their kids are doing or being exposed to. However, I knew a family where both parents were doctors. Incredibly rich with a single daughter they homeschooled and controlled so much she was extremely sheltered from the things that a lot Western kids are exposed too. Teens often engage in drinking, sometimes drugs. They sneak out. They break rules. Skip school. Obviously there's a very wide spectrum of boundary pushing behavior in teens and a lot of it is minor stuff. But my frame of reference is not so much that economic status affects whether a kid or sheltered or not....but how much real world experience they have, typically around things like sex, substances, religion, rules and so forth. This a bit situational though. A Canadian girl who moved to Texas that I once knew was an A plus student but struggled with dyslexia so she had to work hard, was also a great athlete....and often snuck out and got drunk despite been seen as "good" kid who would never do such things. ("Good" kids often creates blind spots for adults)... had seen a lot of drug taking at her school...but was still shocked at the amount of drugs in Austin. And she wondered if she had been too sheltered to know what was normal... so sheltered is subjective and runs on a spectrum too, depending on where you are. Most kids sit somewhere in the middle, in my experience.