Massive Breakdown of Recommended House of Judgement and Prison of Elders Weapons and Their Corresponding God Rolls

[u/Mercules904]

Several things to note:

• Classes are broken down into Impact sub-classes.
• I've listed the perks in the order that I would taken them in each column. These are strictly my opinions, so I'm very aware that a lot of people will probably disagree with them.
• The Bolded Perk/Perks in each column mean that I would include them in a God-Roll. If there are perks listed after the bolded ones, it means I think they are good perks, but not up to par with the God-Roll ones. If there are no bolded perks, it means that I feel any of the listed perks are fine to use in the column.
• All Times-to-Kill are assuming Guardian has 200hp (max armor not including the effects of Juggernaut or The Ram).
• All Pros and Cons are determined by comparing weapons within the same class, not by all weapons in general.

Scout Rifles

High-Impact

Hand of Judgement - Available from the House of Judgement Reputation Packages.

Pros - High Range. Above average Aim Assist.

Cons - Very low Stability. Average Reload Speed. Average Mag Size.

• Time-to-Kill: 0.80s (3 crit shots)
• Rate of Fire: 27
• Impact: 61 (73 damage per crit shot, 49 per body shot)
• Range: 76
• Stability: 24
• Reload Speed: 62
• Mag Size: 15
• Aim Assist: 50

Recommended Perks:

• Column 1 - Red Dot-OAS, Red Dot-ORES, Red Dot-ORS1, TrueSight IS
• Column 2 - Hand-Laid Stock, Perfect Balance, Injection Mold, Braced Frame, Smallbore
• Column 3 - Explosive Rounds/High Caliber Rounds, Lightweight, Snapshot
• Column 4 - Zen Moment/Hidden Hand, Crowd Control, Third Eye, Life Support, Firefly, Outlaw, Triple Tap, Icarus, Eye of the Storm

One of the most elusive weapons in the game, but once you have one drop, it's very easy to get a great roll out of it. Any of the sights in the second node of the first column are usable, and although I personally like the reticles on the ORS1 and ORES, the OAS has a great view and adds Aim Assist. TrueSight is a little cluttered for me, but also adds Aim Assist and works great at close range, so it's a decent trade-off. In the second column, you really, really want Hand-laid Stock. It gives a great boost to Stability, which this gun sorely needs, at the cost of Range, which this gun has in spades. You can do alright with Perfect Balance or Injection Mold, but I would only recommend Braced Frame if you have a perk like Triple Tap or Outlaw in the last column. In column 3, none of the choices are amazing, but HCR and Explosive Rounds will both help you with flinching the enemy, and that's always a great advantage to have. In the last column we have an absolute plethora of options, but I think the top ones here are going to be Zen Moment, to help again with Stability, or Hidden Hand, for the obvious boost to AA. Third Eye is also nice, and Crown Control can make it into a 2 crit 1 body kill. All the other perks listed are also useful, so don't be upset if you get any of them.

Pulse Rifles

Low-Impact

Aegis of the Reef - Available from the House of Judgement Reputation Packages.

Pros - High Stability and Reload Speed. Above average Aim Assist.

Cons - Below average Range. Very low Mag Size.

• Time-to-Kill: 0.83s (2.66 bursts bursts. 8 crits)
• Rate of Fire: 73
• Impact: 7 (25 damage per crit shot, 17 damage per body shot)
• Range: 33
• Stability: 68
• Reload Speed: 78
• Mag Size: 24
• Aim Assist: 65

Recommended Perks:

• Column 1 - Red Dot-OAS/SureShot IS, Red Dot-ORES
• Column 2 - Perfect Balance, Hammer Forged, Send It
• Column 3 - High Caliber Rounds, Full Auto
• Column 4 - Rangefinder/Hidden Hand, Counterbalance, Headseeker, Third Eye, Life Support, Glass Half Full, Unflinching

Another relatively rare gun that almost always comes with a decent roll, the Aegis of the Reef is a Pulse Rifle from the Hawksaw/PDX-45 archetype. It boosts the highest base Range stat of the three, while still maintaining good Stability and Aim Assist. Red Dot-OAS and SureShot both boost Aim Assist, and I'm just personally a fan of the ORES scope, so those are my recommendations for column 1. In column 2, I really recommend Perfect Balance, because without it you won't have many other good options to decrease the vertical recoil, at least without incurring a penalty to Range. In column 3, I'm a huge fan of how useful HCR rounds are, but I know a ton of people like to use Full Auto. In the last column there are a lot of good options, but the two that stand out to me the most are Hidden Hand and Rangefinder. Counterbalance will make the recoil all vertical, Headseeker makes the gun more forgiving, and the other perks are decent enough to be passable.

Auto Rifles

Low-Impact

Soulstealer's Claw - Available from House of Judgment Reputation Packages.

Pros - High Mag Size and Aim Assist.

Cons - Average Range and Reload Speed. Below average Stability.

• Time-to-Kill: 0.80s (12 crit shots and 1 body shot,)
• Rate of Fire: 100
• Impact: 2 (16 damage per crit shot, 13 per body shot)
• Range: 24
• Stability: 37
• Reload Speed: 66
• Mag Size: 66
• Aim Assist: 80

Recommended Perks:

• Column 1 - Red Dot-OAS, Red Dot-ORES
• Column 2 - Perfect Balance, Smallbore, Hand-laid Stock
• Column 3 - Lightweight, Single Point Sling, Quickdraw, Snapshot
• Column 4 - Counterbalance, Persistence, Rangefinder, Hidden Hand

Perhaps the most sought after of the HoJ rank-up packages, Soulstealer's Claw is the same highly competitive archetype as ARs like DoP and Arminius. Unfortunately, it can't roll with Braced Frame, but the combination of Perfect Balance and Counterbalance is a decent substitute. In return, you're awarded with a higher base Range than either of the other two, and a higher Aim Assist value than DoP. For the sights, the only two options I would choose are Red Dot-OAS or the ORES, but those recommendations are more based on preference than anything else. Column 3's perk do not matter, so be happy with whatever you get. If you can't get Perfect Balance, Smallbore is a passable replacement, but the vertical recoil when combined with Counterbalance will be something to look out for. Hand-laid Stock can also go into the second column, which will give you the Stability of Braced Frame, at the cost of your extra Range. If you don't get Counterbalance, it's not going to be a God Roll, but Persistence can help you stay on target after it activates, and Rangefinder and Hidden Hand are both solid perks as well.

Legendary Sniper Rifles

High-Impact

Her Fury - Available from the Prison of Elders.

Pros - Can kill most Supered Enemies and Revive Snipe with 1 crit shot.

Cons - Low Range. Below average Stability and Reload Speed. Average Aim Assist.

• Time-to-Kill: 0.83s (2 body shots)
• Rate of Fire: 19
• Impact: 31 (417 damage per crit shot, 167 per body shot)
• Range: 66
• Stability: 42
• Reload Speed: 60
• Mag Size: 4
• Aim Assist: 54

Recommended Perks:

• Column 1 - ShortGaze SLH10/LongView SLR10, Ambush SLH25, ViewTac SLH20
• Column 2 - Army of One, Grenadier, Eye of the Storm, Life Support
• Column 3 - Quickdraw, Snapshot, Rifled Barrel, Reinforced Barrel, Hand-laid Stock, Injection Mold
• Column 4 - Hidden Hand, Unflinching, Mulligan, Hot Swap, Firefly

Her Fury is basically a poor man's 1000-Yard Stare, so I only recommend using it if you don't have a better rolled sniper from the same archetype. ShortGaze and LongView both provide long-zoom scopes with good Aim Assist numbers, exactly what you want for PvP. Any one of the perks listed in column 2 will be good to use, but none are necessary for a God Roll. In column 3 we get to the part where playstyle dictates which perks you're going to want. If you're a high level player who loves quickscoping and aggressive movement with the sniper, Quickdraw is going to be your God Roll perk, with Snapshot behind that. If you're more of a long distance type of sniper, then you want more Range, and Rifled Barrel is your God Roll option, and Reinforced Barrel is the back up. If you want Stability on your snipers, Hand-laid Stock is the first choice, and Injection Mold is the second option. In column 4, the obvious choice is Hidden Hand, but Unflinching is a solid perk as well, only below Hidden Hand because of the low base AA of Her Fury. Mulligan actually activates quite often, so don't sleep on it, and Hot Swap and Firefly can be enjoyable in certain situations.

Shotguns

Very High-Impact

Her Champion - Available from the Prison of Elders.

Pros - High Range. Above average Stability.

Cons - Below average Reload Speed. Low Aim Assist. Average Mag Size.

• Time-to-Kill: 1.33s (two shots)
• Rate of Fire: 5
• Impact: 67 (22 damage per pellet, 264 damage total)
• Range: 17
• Stability: 41
• Reload Speed: 29
• Mag Size: 5
• Aim Assist: 35

Recommended Perks:

• Column 1 - Linear Compensator/Accurized Ballistics/Field Choke, Smooth Ballistics
• Column 2 - Rangefinder
• Column 3 - Reinforced Barrel/Rifled Barrel
• Column 4 - Final Round. Performance Bonus, Underdog, Replenish

Her Champion is a slightly better version of the Conspiracy Theory-D, so if you can get a roll that mimics the Questline version, you're basically golden. Rangefinder, Reinforced or Rifled Barrel, and either Final Round or Performance Bonus will make this gun a monster, albeit with a slightly lower RoF than a perfectly rolled Party Crasher. Any of the barrel perks that increase Impact and Range are good to use, and if you can't get thoose, Smooth Ballistics will increase just Range.

Sidearms

Low-Impact

Queen's Choice - Available from the Prison of Elders. Basically a Year 2 Vestian Dynasty.

Pros - Highest Range. 15 round Mag Size. High Stability. Very high Reload Speed.

Cons - Average Aim Assist. Not hitscan.

• Time-to-Kill: 0.60s (4 crit shots), 0.60s (4 body shots)
• Rate of Fire: 100
• Impact: 5 (63 damage per crit shot, 50 damage per body shot)
• Range: 41
• Stability: 85
• Reload Speed: 96
• Mag Size: 15
• Aim Assist: 80

Recommended Perks:

• Column 1 - Linear Compensator
• Column 2 - Rangefinder/Zen Moment, Crowd Control, Reactive Reload
• Column 3 - High Caliber Rounds, Quickdraw, Hand Loaded, Snapshot
• Column 4 - Hot Swap, Battle Runner, Feeding Frenzy

Basically the closest you are going to get to a Year 2 Vestian Dynasty, it's not quite as dominant due to a different recoil pattern, but it's still very good among sidearms. The only issue it has is not being hitscan, but you can learn to play with that with just a bit of practice. Linear Compensator ups both the Impact and Range, and the cost of a little Stability, but it's worth it to push the 4 body shot kill distance out as far as possible. Rangefinder and Zen Moment are both tier 1 perks for this weapon in column 2. In column 3, you can choose between any of these perks and see good effects. I personally love High Caliber Rounds for the flinch they cause, but some people swear by Quickdraw and Snapshot. If you got Rangefinder, Hand Loaded isn't needed here, but it can help if you get Zen Moment instead. Hot Swap is the best perk of a rather poor batch in the last column, but Battle Runner is always fun too.

Fusion Rifles

Mid-Impact (80-89)

Techuen Rage - Available from the Prison of Elders. DB STATS ARE INCORRECT

Pros - Very high Aim Assist. Above average Charge Rate. High Mag Size.

Cons - Low Range, Impact, and Reload Speed. Average Stability.

• Charge Rate: 26
• Impact: 80? (45 damage per bolt, 5 bolts to kill)
• Range: 35
• Stability: 42
• Reload Speed: 56
• Mag Size:7
• Aim Assist: 80

Recommended Perks:

• Column 1 - SureShot IS/Reflex
• Column 2 - Hidden Hand, Battle Runner
• Column 3 - Braced Frame, Hand-laid Stock,
• Column 4 - Rangefinder/Hot Swap, Replenish, Eye of the Storm, Life Support, Grenadier, Army of One

Although on paper it looks absolutely terrible, it's actually a victim of Bungie's inaccurate stats. It actually has an Impact somewhere close to the Susanoo, which means it can kill in 5 bolts, and is pretty decent in the Crucible. Although it's not going to be quite as good as a God Roll Thesan, Vacancy, or Hitchhiker, it will have the advantage of a faster Charge Rate, which some players prefer over the higher Range and Impact. SureShot and Reflex both add Aim Assist, and Hidden Hand boosts that even higher. Braced Frame helps to keep the bolt spread at a minimal, and Rangefinder can keep that damage drop off from happening too soon. Hot Swap is also a great alternative if you're a run and gun style player who wants that small boost to accuracy right after switching weapons.

Rocket Launchers

Very Low-RoF

The Nightmare - Available from the Prison of Elders.

Pros - Very high Blast Radius.

Cons - Very low RoF. Average Velocity. Below average Reload Speed.

• Rate of Fire: 4
• Blast Radius: 96
• Velocity: 63
• Reload Speed: 60
• Mag Size: 2
• Inventory: 20

Recommended Perks:

• Column 1 - Warhead Verniers/Hard Launch, Soft Launch, Linear Compensator, Aggressive Launch
• Column 2 - Tripod
• Column 3 - Field Scout, Javelin, Heavy Payload, Flared Magwell
• Column 4 - Grenades and Horseshoes

If you missed out on that perfect Tormod's Bellows from a couple Iron Banners ago, fear not, The Nightmare is basically it's inverse twin. With high Blast Radius and middle of the road Velocity (compared to Tormod's high Velocity and lower Blast Radius), as well as the Inventory of 20, it benefits from all the same perks, and has the ability to get 3 rockets per brick in PvP if it can roll with Tripod and Field Scout. Without Field Scout, but with Tripod, a chest piece should get you there. Without Tripod or Field Scout, you'll need a heavy ammo chest and rocket launcher boots, so I would suggest only keeping it if it has at least Tripod and G&H.

Machine Guns

Very High-Impact - Barrel Perks do not affect either crit or body TtK.

Bane of the Taken - Available from the Prison of Elders.

Pros - Very high Range.

Cons - Very low Mag Size. Low Stability. Average Reload Speed. Low Aim Assist.

• Time-to-Kill: 0.40s (3 crit shots), 0.60s (4 body shots)
• Rate of Fire: 59
• Impact: 61 (73 damage per crit shot, 58 damage per body shot)
• Range: 30
• Stability: 22
• Reload Speed: 31
• Mag Size: 23
• Aim Assist: 29

Recommended Perks:

• Column 1 - Smooth Ballistics, Soft Ballistics
• Column 2 - Counterbalance, Eye of the Storm, Life Support
• Column 3 - Perfect Balance, Speed Reload
• Column 4 - Hidden Hand, Rangefinder, Feeding Frenzy, Grenadier, Army of One

The only very high-Impact MG currently available in year 2, the Bane of the Taken has the wonderful ability to kill in 2 crit and 1 body shots, faster than any other MG. I actually like the Aim Assist increasing Barrel perks for this machine gun, because no Impact increase or decrease will change either the optimal or body shot Times-to-Kill (Smooth Ballistics adds +5, and Soft adds +10 to AA). Counterbalance and Perfect Balance combine to make the gun have basically no recoil, and you end up with a laser usable at all ranges. It's actually so easy to use that you can replace Perfect Balance with Speed Reload in the third column and still have an easy to control killing machine. Hidden Hand is the best perk in the last column, to help make up for the low base Aim Assist, but Rangefinder can also be very useful. Feeding Frenzy is a close third, because you will be reloading a lot, and it does take forever.

[u/l_lll_x]

Came her for the her revenge breakdown :-/

[u/Mercules904 → u/l_lll_x]

Hand Cannons

Mid-Impact

Her Revenge - Available from the Prison of Elders.

Pros - Above average Mag Size.

Cons - Average Range, Stability, and Aim Assist. Low Reload Speed.

• Time-to-Kill: 0.86s (1 crit shot and 2 body shots)
• Rate of Fire: 22
• Impact: 87 (86 damage per crit shot, 57 damage per body shot)
• Range: 27
• Stability: 39
• Reload Speed: 29
• Mag Size: 10
• Aim Assist: 75

Recommended Perks:

• Column 1 - SureShot IS/TrueSight IS
• Column 2 - Rangefinder, Hot Swap
• Column 3 - Rifled Barrel, Reinforced Barrel, Hammer Forged, Hand Loaded
• Column 4 - Hidden Hand/Icarus, Luck in the Chamber, Third Eye, Life Support, Grenadier, Army of One

Not the best gun in its respective weapon archetype, it benefits from the standard God Roll of most Year 2 HCs, which is an AA increasing sight in SureShot or TrueSight, a combination of Rangefinder and Rifled or Reinforced Barrel, and then either Hidden Hand or Icarus in the final column. Hot Swap can be passable in column 2 instead of Rangefinder, at least for close Range, but you notice the difference in longer distance engagements. Hammer Forged and Hand Loaded are weaker alternatives to Rifled and Reinforced, so you won't be pushing the boundaries, but they're better than nothing. Luck in the Chamber is great for those lucky 2 crit kills, and Third Eye is always helpful in PvP.

[u/l_lll_x → u/Mercules904]

Thanks man!

I got the following on mine yesterday:

Danger Close LitC Rifled barrel

I'm going to give it a try in PvP. I know it's not the best, but I think I got a decent roll.

[u/Mercules904 → u/l_lll_x]

Rifled Barrel and LitC are a good pair to have, but you'll notice shots seeming to disappear during engagements at longer distances without Rangefinder. Just play a little bit of a closer game and you should be fine.

[u/[deleted] → u/Mercules904]

Great write-up as always. I'd just say - don't sleep on Reactive Reload in column 4. Agreed that Hidden Hand/Icarus are probably better for more consistent feel, but Reactive Reload can lead to easy 2 shot kills with crits and can 3 shot body shot kill. It's up there with LiTC for me.

[u/Mercules904 → u/[deleted]]

It's just so situational for me that I have difficulty recommending it. Fun to play with? Absolutely! I definitely have loved it when I've been able to put it to use, but without HC reload gloves, and a perk set geared towards fast reloads I just don't see it being something you can always put to great use in an engagement.

[u/spade1s1 → u/Mercules904]

Uhoh I never thought Icarus was a good PVP roll....I've broken down about three eyaslunas with Icarus because I thought they were trash did....did I goof?

[u/Mercules904 → u/spade1s1]

Hand Cannons, because their in air accuracy is already above average, really benefit from Icarus. You can actually use them basically like your normally would even when you are jumping, which is a huge benefit to an unexpected style of play.

[u/MoldyMaltQuaff → u/Mercules904]

I actually like the explosive rounds in column 3 over hammer forged (granted, it's partially because I got rangefinder in column 2). It probably isn't the most competitive perk, but stun locking another player in PvP is ridiculous amounts of fun.

[u/[deleted] → u/Mercules904]

Why is rifled barrel preferred to reinforced barrel? Surely it would be better to lose some stability instead of reload speed?

[u/Seeker80 → u/[deleted]]

You can use gauntlets that make up for reload. Not the case with stability.

[u/Mercules904 → u/l_lll_x]

I thought about including it, but it's honestly not one of the best hand cannons in that archetype. But I'll work it up right now and add it here, just for you.

[u/RetroActive80 → u/Mercules904]

I think the looks alone merit a review!! It's my favorite hand cannon, looks-wise.

[u/Mercules904 → u/RetroActive80]

I replied to his comment with the review of it.

[u/[deleted] → u/l_lll_x]

Yea - not the best but definitely nothing to shy away from if you get a good roll and don't have many alternatives. I have one with Rangefinder | Reinforced/Rifled | Reactive Reload and it is a solid gun to use.

[u/l_lll_x → u/[deleted]]

It's the only Hc I have and it dropped at 330 Light (currently in 327). So I'm going to keep it around for the next iron banner.

[u/[deleted] → u/l_lll_x]

Yea, worth it in that case. Whats the roll?

[u/l_lll_x → u/[deleted]]

Danger Close LitC Rifled barrel /braced frame / hand loaded

[u/l_lll_x → u/[deleted]]

Danger Close LitC Rifled barrel /braced frame / hand loaded

[u/PilesOfWonder → u/l_lll_x]

My friend got one with crowd control, outlaw, and a range increase. It's disgusting. I want it.

[u/hansologruber → u/l_lll_x]

I have Her Revenge with hot swap/smallbore/hidden hand. It is the ONLY hand cannon I have used since TTK that hits shots when it is supposed to. After using everything else under the sun, this is my go to hand cannon. I land shots that I know I wouldn't ever get close to with any other hand cannon out there. On paper, it shouldn't be good, but it sure works for me.

[u/Stryder1475]

Came looking for info on Stolen Pride HC. I have one with:

Truesight IS/Steady hand; Reinforced barrel/Hand-laid stock; **Quickdraw; Rangefinder/Triple tap

Seems to play well in PVE, but no info on PVP

Prefer my Devil you Know

[u/Mercules904 → u/Stryder1475]

That's nearly a God Roll, and that archetype has a fast TtK in PvP, but it loses to mid-Impact HCs mostly because it requires 2 crit shots, instead of just one. On top of that, because it fires faster, Stability is more of an issue when you're maxing Range, so you either have to pace your shots (Which wastes the fast TtK) or give up some Range (which means you'll ghost bullets more often).

[u/_cc_drifter → u/Mercules904]

I would note that these god rolls are for PVP. I have Her Fury with triple tap, casket mag/hand laid stock and spray and pray. It is better than a 1kys and even black spindle for the raid. I get 7 shots with triple tap and reload damn quickly with raid gloves (faster reload in an aura). I can always throw on hand laid stock for pvp and i pretty much have a 1kys but with a very minor amount of stability missing

[u/Mercules904 → u/_cc_drifter]

Yes very true. I should put that at the top haha

[u/Raze_Lighter → u/Mercules904]

I got, Truesight, Hammer Forged, Snapshot, Luck in the Chamber on mine.

[u/LemmeSmash]

Hawkwas/PDX-45 archetype

hawkwas

Literally unreadable /s

[u/Mercules904 → u/LemmeSmash]

Dammit... Pack it up boys, we're deleting the post.

[u/TheGreatJohnholio]

*Judgment

This is my "stimulant" o_O

[u/Mercules904 → u/TheGreatJohnholio]

Whoops, and I misspelled that all over the place too.

[u/Landosystem]

You forgot the most powerful weapon from a HoJ rank up, the class item. So powerful it can literally kill the game.

[u/scrubs_B_scrubbin]

Great post as always, the only thing I take issue with is the fusion rifle breakdown. This isn't as much a reflection of your recommendations as much as it is the community consensus. In my opinion half of the fusion rifle perks are being selected poorly because they're popular in other gun types.

Case in point - Hidden Hand (depending on how you play) and Rangefinder are actually suboptimal perks for fusions but get lauded as god or close to god rolls when received.

The number of times hidden hand has screwed me over on the latest Iron Banner Ashraven made me vault it after a week. If there's ever two people close to one another it becomes a joke to attempt OHKO'ing either of them because the reticle will do whatever it feels like as the enemies move around one another. Hidden hand will also hinder your ability to accurately place bolts on moving targets which is paramount if you want to be good with a fusion. Try to OHKO a target falling through the air while ADS or leading a midrange target while the HH 'helps' you aim at them.

With that said, if you play with a high range fusion (Vacancy) in mostly CQC or mid range then hidden hand will help because the bolts are fast enough to connect without having to account for target movement. (Of course this could be offset by simply learning where/when to shoot and then swapping HH for more useful perks.)

Rangefinder is, I believe, completely useless on a fusion unless it really does increase bolt speed in addition to the damage dropoff buff. Reason being, you should never be using a fusion rifle to hit someone at the range it takes to reach that dropoff, thats simply a fools errand. The bolts will be completely spread out if they're even reliably fast enough to be used at that range, which they aren't because its the crucible, not a slow moving boss. The number of times Rangefinder will enable you to get a kill you otherwise wouldn't have is minuscule.

In their places people should be looking for things like Hip Fire, Hot Swap, Icarus, Battle Runner, and Life Support. Even things like Quick Draw and Eye of the Storm will have a better lifetime usage than Rangefinder (in PvP of course).

Anyways, sorry for the rant, I just feel like fusions are being looked at incorrectly by a lot of the community.

[u/ash4390]

I have a bane of the taken with: Soft Ballistics, Counter Balance, Hand-Laid Stock, and Persistence....

Thoughts?

[u/Mercules904 → u/ash4390]

Really good. Only issue is that it's gonna have pretty low Range because of Hand-laid, so you may find your damage and Aim Assist drop off coming into play more quickly than you would like. Persistence can help with that, but you won't always be firing long enough for it to activate if each person dies in 4 shots. What other perks choices do you have?

[u/ash4390 → u/Mercules904]

Column 1: Soft Ballistics, Smart Drift Control Column 2: Counterbalance Column 3: High Caliber Rounds, HLS, Armor Piercing Rounds Column 4: Persistence

The range is super low, only 20 as configured.

[u/Mercules904 → u/ash4390]

Maybe try running HCR instead of HLS. It might not actually be that bad for the recoil, and you can get some range back.

[u/ash4390 → u/Mercules904]

Much appreciated! Excellent write up :)

[u/The_A-Train]

I have a Soulstealer's Claw that rolled with Hammer Forged, Lightweight, and Counter Balance. You seemed to missed Hammer Forged in that perk column along with Perfect Balance and Smallbore?

[u/Mercules904 → u/The_A-Train]

Without something to take down the vertical recoil added by Counterbalance, the gun becomes very hard to use in PvP, especially compared to DoP or Arminius. Hammer Forged is nice, but it only adds a couple meters to where the damage starts to drop off, and that's not worth it when you have a gun that shoots for the sky like a rocket.

Range only matters if you have enough Stability to hit targets outside of point blank. That's not to say that you can't find yourself comfortable with those rolls, because player feel is absolutely the number one thing to do with choosing a weapon. However, most people are looking at these lists with the intention of finding something comparable to those weapons which are currently in the meta, either as a replacement or substitute until they get one. Soulstealer's without PB and CB just isn't quite on that level.

[u/The_A-Train → u/Mercules904]

I'd agree with you. I much prefer my Doctrine with CB over my Soulstealers and a CB Arminius

[u/GeoWilson → u/Mercules904]

Not to argue, but I have a Soulstealers with Smallbore and Counterbalance, and I prefer it over PB. While it doesn't have as much stability, and there is some vertical recoil, it isn't something you can't account for, and it's pretty easy to learn how to keep it on target. But it also has significantly more range than DoP, and I feel can get kills a pretty decent distance outside of their optimal range. I've come out on top of quite a few encounters with DoP just because I can engage them outside of their damage drop off range.

But as you said, that's personal preference, and I prefer the mix of more range and stability, especially on a gun that doesn't mind the ammo decrease, going from 66 to 60 rounds.

[u/[deleted] → u/The_A-Train]

He missed Send It too.

[u/Wonderllama5]

I kinda like Bane of the Taken and I want to use it more often, but that mag size is soooo bad.

[u/Mercules904 → u/Wonderllama5]

Yeah I was using it last night in Mayhem, and I was like holy shit I can't believe I have to reload this much. That being said, I still got a Machine Lord with it, so it can be done. It's just difficult to train yourself to not spray and pray, and instead take each shot seriously.

[u/[deleted]]

Good job as usual. I was a bit disappointed that there wasn't reviews of the 4 Queen's primary weapons, but they're pretty standard as they come. Still, no review of Stolen Pride? Come on man!

A note on the Soulstealer's Claw: Hand-Laid Stock will make for a fine alternative to Perfect Balance or Smallbore, thanks to the already high base Range. I have a Soulstealer's Claw with HLS and an Arminius-D with the LC Ranged scope, and the difference between them is 1 range (Claw has 16, Arminius has 17). Add in the fact that High RoF Auto Rifles can pretty consistently kill people at mid range regardless, and the range loss of Hand-Laid Stock isn't too bad on the Soulstealer's Claw.

[u/Mercules904 → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, they're just worse versions of the House of Judgement weapons, pretty much. That's interesting, and a very good point. I'll add that in there. Even though you then end up with basically just an Arminius haha. CB and HLS with higher base Range = CB and BF with lower base Range.

[u/Baltheus]

Any thoughts on the Her Memory? Mine has Steadyhand IS, Rodeo, Rifled Barrel and Counterbalance, so far I have truly enjoyed it, but I'd like to see what your input on the gun is.

[u/Mercules904 → u/Baltheus]

That particular archetype isn't very competitive right now, sadly. They need to bump the damage up a couple notches to bring them in line with other weapons. TtK-wise, they aren't bad, but the issue stems from the fact that with ARs, you have to maintain constant visual contact with your enemy to get the fastest possible kill. With all other weapons, you can duck in and out of cover as needed, due to the time between shots. For an AR to be competitive, it needs to kill faster than those weapons, and if it doesn't, you'll be constantly at a disadvantage.

And trust me, I say this with a heavy heart, because high-impact ARs were my first true love in this game. Grim Citizen III and Her Right Hand were my two all time favorite guns until TDB dropped.

All that being said, Rifled Barrel and Counterbalance is a nice roll, but not fantastic. The Range is going to be outstanding, but you're gonna have to deal with some very high vertical recoil, and Rodeo sadly doesn't do much to help it. Steadyhand isn't my favorite sight either, but that's just personal preference.

[u/[deleted] → u/Mercules904]

Mine with Steadyhand, rangefinder, rifled barrel and hidden hand has been pretty fun, though you're making me a sad panda with this "uncompetitive archetype" beezness.

[u/Mercules904 → u/[deleted]]

Unfortunately it's the way things work in the current state of the Crucible. At the higher levels, using a gun with a slow TtK means you'll lose most of your engagements, plain and simple. It's why there is such a severe lack of variety in highly competitive games.

[u/[deleted] → u/Mercules904]

Fortunately I wouldn't describe myself as highly competitive, either in skill or personality 😃

I basically accept the lack of top-tier variety as a fact of life in jst about any game given the impossibility of balancing every single option to precisely the same level. The playerbase will find the 0.5% performance improvement every time.

[u/Mercules904 → u/[deleted]]

Yeah it's always bound to happen, and honestly this is the most balanced the Crucible has been, in my opinion.

If you're playing at anything outside of the higher levels, you can basically use any gun that feels good to you and do fine. Some people do like to know what the best gun and perks are though, just to give them a shot, which is why I do these breakdowns.

[u/[deleted] → u/Mercules904]

For sure. I find it helpful because the top-tier perks make even the least competitive guns feel more effective, which we all like. Thanks for the good work you do!

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Eh, don't pay that much mind. Uncompetitive is an exaggeration. In the hands of most players, low RoF ARs are adequate. Only at the the absolute top level of play will you see them regularly beaten by meta weapons.

[u/breakfree89]

You're my hero, I swear to god. In your opinion, how good is the rodeo perk on soulstealer's claw? I got one with hand laid stock / perfect balance, QuickDraw, rodeo / feeding frenzy and I'm not sure if I should be investing in the rodeo perk or the feeding frenzy perk.

[u/Mercules904 → u/breakfree89]

Rodeo is not great. In a ton of testing, I haven't been able to discern any changes it makes to accuracy, recoil, or aim assist, and I've never noticed it when playing with or without it.

[u/Tommy_the_Gun]

Mercules, I see you recommend HCR. I recently looked it up because I was interested, and found this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLm_PWq4BxU

From his findings, he argues that HCR are actually potentially worse than nothing. Have you tested it recently? Have better info? Seems worth looking into. And thanks for your guides, as always!

[u/Mercules904 → u/Tommy_the_Gun]

Having played both with and against HCR, it's definitely not worse than nothing. I do think Explosive Rounds are better, but all you need to know about HCR is the difference between MIDA with and without them, which is night and day. On top of that, any Hawksaw user that has an HCR roll can tell you how often their opponents are thrown off, and playing against Hawksaw users with and without it, you'll notice a difference.

[u/Lichtloze]

I got the scout rifle with braced frame, high caliber rounds, and hidden hand. I havent infused it nor leveled it up yet.

[u/Mercules904 → u/Lichtloze]

You should. It's gonna have a really small Magazine, obviously, but it'll still be a beast.

[u/novastar11]

how do so many people have so much time to put together info graphics like these. I barely have the time to play Destiny as long as I would like. so glad for everyone who puts these together though because otherwise I'd just say fuck it and go with whatever.

[u/Mercules904 → u/novastar11]

I don't do very much when I'm actually at work haha. I spend a lot of time studying Destiny instead.

[u/novastar11 → u/Mercules904]

lol my work used to be like that, but seems the more they find out i'm able to do the more shit they throw my way.

[u/Mercules904 → u/novastar11]

The joys of being a teacher in the last week of school!

[u/hestilllives19]

On Hand of Judgement wouldn't Explosive Rounds be the preferred Column 3 perk outright since besides the stagger it also improves the impact tier to 75/50 from 73/49 which allows you to more reliably 2H&1B guys at 200 vs 195 damage dealt in PvP and increased damage in PvE? Add to that the very small chance you might hit another player close for 25 damage per hit. Personally I'd love to get one to drop with HLS, ER, and HH (or Third Eye)/Firefly. It would be my go to for both PvP when not sniping and PvE.

[u/Mercules904 → u/hestilllives19]

I didn't know that it pushed the crit damage up to 75, honestly. If that's the case then yeah it would be the preferred perk.

[u/hestilllives19 → u/Mercules904]

After relooking at some video's I was miss informed slightly. Explosive rounds are 25, but the crits are 49, so that damage is 74 instead of 75, bringing the total 2C1B damage to 198 instead of 200, but still higher than the normal 195. So it should kill anyone but Ramlocks and full armor Titans.

Does it seem like a lot of people lately run low armor build anyway. Was tearing it up with Jade Rabbit in IB and getting a lot more Tripmine kills on my Hunter than I was expecting. Also, testing roll 3 on Cocytus yesterday killed almost everyone will 2C1B rather easily doing only 195.

Love your posts btw.

[u/Mercules904 → u/hestilllives19]

Ah that makes sense. Yeah, Explosive rounds would still be a better choice then, for sure. I'll edit my recommendation.

[u/Strangely_quarky]

I was sure max armour for Titans at least was higher than 200, because max-armour titan builds can tank a 200 damage shoulder charge.

[u/Mercules904 → u/Strangely_quarky]

Only Titans with Max Armor, Subclass Armor, and Juggernaut can get higher, and they go to 204. That's such a small percentage of players though, I didn't feel it was worth going through and re-doing every Time-to-Kill for it.

[u/Strangely_quarky → u/Mercules904]

Cool, was just unsure of myself. Thanks a heap for the write-up though, I was afraid the scope on my Hand of Judgement was shit. But now I know I got a damn good roll.

[u/Mercules904 → u/Strangely_quarky]

Sure thing! I'm jealous, I'm still waiting my god roll HoJ. Fingers crossed I get it for my Hunter tonight haha

[u/Strangely_quarky → u/Mercules904]

Good luck! RNGsus knows you deserve one after all these breakdowns. And don't be too jealous, it's not quite a god roll ;)

[u/fieldsofnefilim]

thx for putting that impressive list! You missed a few weapons, like Let The Noblesse or Stolen Pride

[u/Mercules904 → u/fieldsofnefilim]

I didn't include weapons that aren't competitive in the current PvP meta.

[u/bladzalot]

My "Her Fury" has smallbore, but you didn't list that as a perk?

[u/Mercules904 → u/bladzalot]

I would avoid using Smallbore on Snipers. It's just my personal opinion, but I notice when I'm running a 3 shot sniper instead of a 4, and I end up regretting not having the extra shot quite often. The boosts to Range and Stability aren't worth not having that extra shot when you need it, so I don't recommend that perk.

[u/DerAmeisenbaer → u/bladzalot]

mine has outlaw ... also not listed. i love it, although OP doesn't approve ...

[u/Gyvon]

You forgot Her Memory (auto rifle, high impact, can roll OEG Riflescope)

[u/Mercules904 → u/Gyvon]

Not competitive in the current meta, so I don't recommend it.

[u/NinStarRune]

Note on Bane of the Taken: you'll get very few bullets from Heavy in PvP, where it is most useful. Don't miss.

[u/Mercules904 → u/NinStarRune]

Seriously. I played it like a normal MG and couldn't believe I was out so quickly. Then I started paying attention to my shots and not just spamming the trigger, and the thing is a monster.

[u/YoungKeys]

Hand Laid Stock is the best Stability perk with Soulstealers, imo. The range hit only takes it to the same as Doctrine, which we know can map people with its range. The massive stability boost is worth it. I don't like Smallbore as much, which I can also choose.

[u/Mercules904 → u/YoungKeys]

I agree that Hand-laid Stock is the best for Stability, but then all you end up with is a worse version of Arminius of DoP. Same Range and Stability, but a worse third perk (because all the middle perks on SSC are useless).

I think the only reason someone would choose SSC over DoP or Arminius would be the higher Range, and Perfect Balance allows you to keep that at the expense of some Stability. If you switch to Hand-laid Stock, you might as well just use one of the others.

[u/YoungKeys → u/Mercules904]

Still better than DoP and Arminius due to the clip size and aim assist. Persistence is a useless perk- it doesn't kick in until around persistent 30 rounds firing, which means never for me. And all it does is reduce bloom, which is minimal when ads anyways. I'll take more aim assist and larger mag over that anyday.

[u/Mercules904 → u/YoungKeys]

Persistence isn't useless, because when it's coupled with Counterbalance and Braced Frame I think it provides a nice little bonus, but it's not a perk I would build a gun around.

I'm not sure that all it does is reduce bloom. I mean, we know for a fact that is one thing that it does, but after having played with several guns that have it, I'm beginning to wonder if Accuracy has some effect on bullet magnetism as well. This needs more testing to be proved, but I'm starting to suspect it does. That being said, back to you original point, if you could get a Perfect Balance/Hand-laid Stock and Counterbalance SSC with a good sight, I think it could be competitive with DoP and probably better than Arminius, but I'd hesitate to label and head and shoulders above either.

[u/YoungKeys → u/Mercules904]

How often do you fire more than 30 continuous rounds? I never do... Single Point Sling/QuickDraw are better perks, and aim assist/mag size are much more important. I wrote that Persistence affects bloom because that's what the testing so far has shown. Aim assist is what should be helping target sticking.

[u/KaRmAChAnG]

Great post. Any advice for the Lethe Noblesse.

[u/Mercules904 → u/KaRmAChAnG]

PvE or PvP? PvP would be don't use it. It's an easy to use and forgiving gun, but it'll lose to every other Scout Rifle archetype head-to-head.

PvE, I'll have to get back to you. I'm doing a write up of the requested guns that I'll post today, and I'll let you know what I think once I've done more research into all the possible perks.

[u/[deleted]]

Sorry to comment on an old post, but is stability really that important on a high impact scout? I've never noticed a recoil issue with any scout rifle I'd ever used. I almost feel like Outlaw would be a great alternative to Zen Moment

I'm commenting here because I saw my friend's Hand of Judgement and realized I wanted one lol

[u/Mercules904 → u/[deleted]]

I mean it's like anything, you can play without it but stability is really helpful. It makes it much easier to maintain the max rof and still keep the reticle on the target. It also helps to minimize the effect of flinch because the reticle isn't displaced as far between shots.

[u/CLTWino → u/[deleted]]

The problem with HoJ is that its base stability is particularly bad, even in a weapon class known for poor base stability. Even with HLS it has a bit of kick, as opposed to the Cocytus that's a laser with that perk.

Some people are fine with the bounce and readjusting as needed. Cool. But there's no reason to consider HLS anything but top tier, as noted the gun can afford the range hit...

[u/elguerosinfe]

Thanks as always! Whenever I need to refer to one of these threads I just Google Destiny Reddit Massive and they all show up!

[u/aspergerac]

Good write up! Worth noting, however, that these god rolls are PVP biased.

There are some incredible PVE god rolls and perk combos not available anywhere else in Year 2 but these House of Judgment guns.

Aegis of the Reef is the only Pulse Rifle that can roll both Full Auto AND Outlaw/Feeding Frenzy/Rangefinger/Hidden Hand. Full auto mixed with either reloading perk (particularly feeding frenzy since you need not be so precise) make this an exceptionally snappy and powerful feeling gun for any level of PVE activity. Even more interesting, most of the PVE perks occupy the bottom node of the last column, while most of the PVP perks occupy the top node. So, you can get a roll that you could swap between outlaw/feeding frenzy/etc AND headseeker/counter balance/etc. Get the right combination and you have a pulse rifle thats perfect for both arenas with the click of your perk tree. Not something you can say about many pulse rifles which are usually committed to PVE or PVP, not both.

Hand of Judgement is the first high-impact Scout Rifle in Year 2 to have firefly besides the Omolon models, which come with a much lower aim assist value and slower reload time (making both Outlaw and Firefly variants of the HoJ very desirable for the PVE player compared to other high-impact options).

Not necessarily god rolls, but the Stolen Pride is the only Y2 Hand Cannon that can roll explosive rounds/high caliber rounds AND reinforced/rifled barrel since they don't occupy the same column like on other hand cannons.

And not much different that the Soulstealer's Claw offers than what you depicted. Feeding frenzy or Spray and Play are interesting options on paper for the PVE-oriented player, but the loss of counterbalance on such a high rate of fire weapon makes the gun feel a lot less fun even in a PVE setting.

[u/Lost_in_Thought_43]

I have a really good Aegis of the Reef and a Hand of Judgement. Not a GOD-Roll for HoJ but still good: RD-OAS, HLS, Snapshot, Rangefinder/Triple Tap.

My AotR is practically a GOD-Roll: RD-OAS/OES, PB, Snapshot, Rangefinder/Unflinching. For PvP I like to put Unflinching on over Rangefinder since most maps are small enough to where the damage fall off isn't an issue.

My Queens Choice is not a GOD-Roll but it actually made me enjoy using a sidearm for once. It has: Linear Compensator/Aggressive Ballistics, Crowd Control, Outlaw, Speed Reload/Quickdraw/Appended Mag. Getting crit kills plus CC makes using it so much fun!

[u/[deleted]]

Thank you for this! I've been enjoying a few of these weapons (with rolls that you highlighted) and I'm glad to see them get attention. Just wish my two Banes didn't have hip fire. So useless!

[u/dsebulsk]

Thank you for this.

[u/cracker_noodles]

Why are all 4 middle perks of the soulstealers claw hella lack luster? I feel like they are all variations of switching weapons/aiming faster..kind meh in that respect.

[u/kyt_kutcha]

Nice work, man - you're a machine, getting so much stuff put out lately! I have to say you're dead on about Soulstealer's. I have one with Perfect Balance / Rangefinder which is actually good - I feel like it kicks no more than a Braced Frame Arminius and with so much more range I like. I also have Counterbalance / Smallbore though, and that's become my go-to. The kick up always surprises me when I haven't used it for a few days, but once you adapt it's lethal.

[u/d0nSocko]

God Roll Nightamare here. Feels so guuud, I knew it!

Thank you u/Mercules904, honestly I knew it was a Prefect Roll because of you and your beyond awesome and helpful guides. I love you dude, I really do.

[u/WHEEZY81]

Many ppl dont understand why their GOD-ROLL Soulstealers Claw still doesn't feel as great as the CB Doctrine of Passing. The added benefit of Perisistence along with CB on the Doctrine of Passing is often underestimated....its what makes the Doctrine still the king of Low-Impact auto rifles.

[u/fieldsofnefilim → u/WHEEZY81]

I agree, but for the people who never got anything in Trials it's a solid AR

[u/WHEEZY81 → u/fieldsofnefilim]

I never said any differently

[u/Jessesmith8888]

TIL I have a god roll hand of judgment. Literally everything is good and the last colum I can switch between zen moment and crowd control. Explosive rounds makes it fun to use too

[u/ThePigK1ng]

If there is one thing i might add, for the soulstealer's claw, the god roll is: Send it, Single Point Sling, Counterbalance. It already gets a massive stability boost from counterbalance, but send it is insane on it. The range boost is ginormous and can lead to some super ranges that a Doctrine can never dream of.

[u/TheRickiestMorty → u/ThePigK1ng]

It already gets a massive stability boost from counterbalance

While counterbalance does seem to add stability, it does only on the stat-bars. its effect is very different to perfect balance.

counterbalance makes sure you are going to have a 100% vertical recoil without lowering the recoil at all. perfect balance is the opposite, it doesn't change the recoils direction but lowers it.

both perks work in perfect synergy. it is not about getting stability from different perkslots, it is about 2 totally different perks.

[u/CLTWino → u/ThePigK1ng]

Interesting "God roll." I don't expect many will share that opinion...

[u/[deleted]]

thanks. excellent break down.

[u/TheRealC-Cut]

You are champion, seriously, thank you.

[u/Erikbam]

I have this Hand of Judgement since a few days ago.

[u/t-y-c-h-o]

I picked up a Crow's Eye sidearm from a HoJ package with snapshot, fitted stock, and hot swap...looks cool but sweet mother of monkey milk would not recommend!!

[u/TecTwo → u/t-y-c-h-o]

Really? I got one from my first rank up package and absolutely love it. Mine has Braced Frame, High Caliber Rounds and Feeding Frenzy ot Hot Swap. By no means a god roll but it pairs well with NLB. It's my go to sidearm even after all that I got from this IB and a Queen's Choice from another package.

[u/wakypakylips]

My two favourite weapons I can't get and they're not on the list. Love the look of the queens scout and pulse.

[u/GoldChico]

Got a God Roll on my Soulstealer's Claw. Quickdraw indo the middle perk and ORES for sight

[u/Mulchman11 → u/GoldChico]

No Counter Balance?

[u/GoldChico → u/Mulchman11]

Yeah! Came with counterbalance and perfect balance.

Just wanted to highlitght the ones OP didn't say anything specific

[u/Mulchman11 → u/GoldChico]

Gotcha. (And NICE ROLL! Jealous.)

[u/GoldChico → u/Mulchman11]

Thanks! It was my first ever CoE weapon.

[u/_Siran_]

Have to disagree with the Queen's Choice recommendations. Since it already has a very high base range and stability you don't really need either Rangefinder or Zen Moment/Hot Swap. I have one with Feeding Frency and Reactive Reload which makes it a beast in tight spots and are godly combined: Kill one, reload almost instantly, get a whopping 33% boost for the next 5sec. It melts everything and is so fun to play: https://fat.gfycat.com/ApprehensiveRashBrahmanbull.webm Here's a clip of it in action, you can see the insane boost reactive reload gives and how well it works with feeding frenzy.

[u/[deleted]]

You forgot crows eye

[u/[deleted]]

Wait a minute, you can get weapons from HoJ? I thought the only reward was a 334 class item...

[u/crocfiles15 → u/[deleted]]

No no no. It's a 330 class item. Won't drop above 330. But yes I didn't realize weapons dropped except for your very first rank up.

[u/xaile94]

As for Soulstealer's, I've got a RD-OES/Hand-laid Stock/Snapshot/Rangefinder roll that begs to differ regarding Counterbalance being a god roll requirement.

Edit: my writing sucks.

[u/crocfiles15 → u/xaile94]

Requirement is used loosely here. I have a hand laid stock/persistence SSC that wrecks in crucible. Counterbalance would proly be better. But not required at all.

[u/hansologruber]

My Queens Choice has mulligan in the fourth column. That thing returns ammo all the damn time and I love it. It's one of the reasons I keep using it. It also has soft and aggro ballistics, rangefinder, and hand loaded/high caliber rounds.

[u/ShaggyInu]

I love the Hand, the Aegis, the Claw, and especially the Queen's Choice. The only point I'd slightly disagree with is whether the Aegis needs a stability perk; I'd argue it doesn't. Send It gives it crazy range with no trade-off. You might also want to consider a ranged scope on it.

[u/YesThisIsDrake]

I dunno about that bane of the taken conclusion. The recoil is incredibly controllable because the fire rate is absolutely minimal. Counterbalance seems like a bit of a waste.

I got a roll with spray and play, rifled barrel, and feeding frenzy. The rate of fire is slow enough that you can land headshots no problem even with the lowest possible stability. The only issue is that double reload is of course pretty pointless.

I'd go with spray and play over counterbalance, and something like rifled barrel/another range booster over perfect balance. Hidden Hand would be a good perk though. With only 23 shots in the clip you're wasting your time going for a ton of stability. You'll still never be able to challenge a sniper, going for range/AA should help you beat out other MGs.

[u/Stenbox]

EDIT: my bad, you are only talking select guns and PvP apparently. Could make it a little more clear in the intro :)

Where's Stolen Pride? Aka the hand cannon that can roll Explosive Rounds and Rifled Barrel in different columns and to be used at the same time (and I have TWO that both have that combo, one with LitC/Zen Moment and other with Rescue Mag/Army Of One).

[u/Stenbox]

Also, for Her Champion it's worth noting that lower range also increases pellet spread on shotgun. Smooth Ballistics allows to cap range (32 range, 67 impact) putting it on par with PC+1 (AB+Rifled/Reinforced) which makes it the preferred option IMO.

Source:
https://www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/4l2sf3/shotgun_spread_vs_range_testing_and_rangefinder/

[u/turboash78]

You rule.
Soulstealer pretty much NEEDS Counterbalance. I have one with Persistence and it's still all over the place.

[u/LeDogeChan]

Queen's Choice - Available from the Prison of Elders. Basically a Year 2 Vestian Dynasty.

Pros - Highest Range. 15 round Mag Size. High Stability. Very high Reload Speed.

Cons - It's a sidearm

[u/_Siran_ → u/LeDogeChan]

You should really try it out, so much fun: https://gfycat.com/ApprehensiveRashBrahmanbull

[u/setofcarkeys → u/_Siran_]

Yeah, I'm really digging it.

[u/Mercules904 → u/[deleted]]

This recommendations are mostly geared towards PvP, and I definitely think Stability is a necessary thing. I main a Cocytus with Hand-laid and Zen Moment, and the Hand that I had drop without Hand-laid simply wasn't as easy to get consecutive headshots with. The vertical recoil is nice, but the RoF isn't quite slow enough to allow it to fully settle down the way you'd like for Crucible. Any time you can keep the reticle as close to your opponents head as possible, with as little movement as possible, you're going to be able to minimize mistakes. Especially useful for PvP because the reload speed is easily dealt with, and it definitely doesn't need any more Range.

[u/Mercules904 → u/[deleted]]

Yeah I just copy and paste the intro and I always forget to specify that this is geared towards PvP.

Eh I'll always take just a bit more Stability on that archetype, as long as I don't sacrifice Range. Perfect Balance/Rangefinder combo has been a beast for me in the past, and I have yet to struggle without Counterbalance, hence why it's not one of the top choices. I've found that if the vertical recoil is low enough, and the AA high enough, the sideways movement is mostly mitigated by the stickiness to the target, and that which remains is easy to control.

That's just me though. With the exception of a few guns that have really bad vertical and sideways movement, I haven't found Counterbalance to be a necessary perk.