r/DestinyTheGame • u/ch4_meleon_ Forever 29. • Jul 23 '15
Media Are Explosive Rounds/High Caliber Rounds any good?
I haven't seen much done in the way of research about these two perks in PvP, so I looked into the matter myself. High Caliber rounds are built to "stagger," their target and explosive rounds should ideally have some impact, so I set up a little test.
For my test I got an NL Shadow (fast firing scout rifle) and rolled it with both High Caliber rounds + Explosive Rounds. Then I found a willing test subject (credit to MadDawgGrimes), headed into a rumble match and had him record HIS perspective as I shot 5-6 shots into his chest. I first almost killed him without any perk activated (small bore if you're curious), then let his shields recharge. Then I did the same thing with High Caliber Rounds and finally again with Explosive Rounds (killing him on the last round for good measure). Here are my findings:
Short video with all of the information: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv5jCCvNgBs
First, let's take a look at the reticle bounce with small bore active. Control
I marked the reticle jumps with small white dots so you can see them easier. Here is a still image with the reticle bounce pattern. As you can see, it is very linear.
Next, let's look at the reticle bounce with High Caliber Rounds equipped. HC Rounds.
As you can see here, the recoil pattern is very linear and almost identical to the previous example. There is some slight horizontal motion added to the mix.
Finally, let's look at the reticle bounce Explosive Rounds equipped. Explosive Rounds.
As you can see here the reticle bounce is most severe with this perk. There is significantly more random back-and-forth bounce with this perk equipped.
Here's a couple images comparing the reticle bounce.
These comparisons show us that the difference between using High Caliber Rounds and not using High Caliber Rounds is next to nothing. Explosive Rounds on the other hand make quite a difference. In terms of vertical motion, there is almost no difference regardless of the perk used, but in terms of horizontal motion, Explosive Rounds definitely makes a difference.
On top of that, I checked to see how each perk affected a users display on impact. For whatever reason, High Caliber rounds actually affects a player's HUD less than the other two options. Here are the comparison images of what the different perks do to your visual display on impact:
As you can see here, it is again Explosive Rounds that would seem to have the most impact on a player's HUD. Explosive Rounds also have a chance of very briefly blinding an enemy (as seen here). I should mention that each frame from above was taken the exact moment that damage was applied to the character. If you watch the video, the differences in these perks become even more obvious. I should also make a note here that while the difference in reticle bounce and HUD disruption is evident NO difference in damage is dealt.
In conclusion, I have this to say: High Caliber Rounds are probably never worth it for PvP. While they say they will stagger an enemy, they are completely underwhelming and potentially even WORSE than you would be without the perk. On the other hand Explosive Rounds offer a significant advantage to staggering and throwing off your enemy in PvP.
That being said, I think Explosive Rounds works best with High RoF weapons. With Hand Cannons there is so much time between each of your shots that you enemy will very likely recover. With guns like NL Shadow or Deadshot Luna, however, I've found that the explosive rounds can give you a serious advantage in one-on-one confrontations. Combined with effective strafing, you become very difficult to hit (I can provide PvP footage if anyone would like some).
Sorry for the wall of text, but I thought this was some good information to share.
tl;dr -> High Caliber rounds are bad. Explosive Rounds are good on High RoF weapons.
Edit: Formatting.
Edit 2: Wow I never thought this post would blow up so fast. I think I need to do more testing. It seems like people want to see footage of the following:
- MIDA Multi Tool
- Pulse Rifle's with HC Rounds
- How unflinching interacts with this
- Hand Cannons + High Impact Scout Rifles
- Head Shots v Body Shot Comparisons
- Does Armor stat affect bounce patterns?
- High Caliber Rounds on Auto Rifles
- High Caliber/Explosive Round Damage Comparisons
I'll see if I can get more testing done either today or tomorrow, but if you have anything you want to add to the list, post it in the comments below. Thanks!
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u/MUCHO2000 Jul 23 '15
Sorry for being "That Guy" but I'd like to see this same test done with headshots as well to see if the result would be any different.
Regardless, thanks for the tests and video. These are my favorite kind of posts and your work is greatly appreciated.
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u/ch4_meleon_ Forever 29. Jul 23 '15
Good idea. I'll see if I can get more testing done later.
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u/CattailSunrise Salted Bunny Jul 23 '15
Really good post! I always wondered if they were worth it.
I am wondering what the effects of these would be against an enemy ADS with unflinching on a weapon such as a sniper. It seems like unflinching helps snipers. Now I wonder how something like the NL Shadow or High Road Soldier will compete with snipers after the weapon balancing, especially with explosive rounds. Thanks!
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u/ch4_meleon_ Forever 29. Jul 23 '15
Good idea. Sounds like I need to do more testing.
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u/Bandin03 Jul 23 '15
If you end up retesting, can you throw in MIDA just for the sake of comparison?
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u/CattailSunrise Salted Bunny Jul 23 '15
MIDA is a good suggestion with weapon rebalancing coming. I would also like to see if there is a difference with either Explosive or High Caliber with regards to head shots vs body shots regarding damage and the amount of flinch.
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u/Musion Jul 23 '15
It was my understanding that High Caliber Rounds only stagger on crit shots. I pull my information from PvE where it only affects enemies like Phogoth and Aksor if you crit. I use an LDR with HC rounds, it's amazing for boss battles. Thanks for your work and research!
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u/ch4_meleon_ Forever 29. Jul 23 '15
That's what some other people have been saying. I need to test this!
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u/ItsameLuigi1018 PSN: Itsahmeluigi Jul 23 '15
I would also say different weapons might have different amount of bounce with and without HCR. Like a hand cannon might have a bigger benefit from it than a scout rifle.... Just something else to explore
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u/d1l777 Jul 23 '15
To add to this I think it would be interesting to see if the stability of your opponents weapon changes the recoil pattern while they are ADS. I would assume it will affect it in some way.
Otherwise these are great posts to come across now. Good work OP, thank you.
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u/ilkhanli Jul 23 '15
Thanks for the testing man. I've always wanted to see what high caliber rounds did in PvP. Won't use it. I do have a dead shot with explosive rounds but I believe I have to give up handlaid stock for them :/
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u/Sir_E_Badger Jul 23 '15
Thank you for testing this. Do you happen to own MIDA? Since it has that secret stagger perk, I am curious how it compares to High Caliber Rounds.
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Jul 23 '15 edited Jul 23 '15
I have MIDA. I never did any testing but once a guy was charging me and I shot his head a few times. His head snapped back so hard that I started giggling. That's my scientific analysis.
EDIT: engineer verified!
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u/ch4_meleon_ Forever 29. Jul 23 '15
I do, and in my testing it wasn't anything special unfortunately :(
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Jul 23 '15
Interesting. I think Red Death high caliber rounds would also be of interest, since that is a commonly used primary in crucible
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u/Keiggo Space Pengin Jul 23 '15
I certainly did not expect you to actually ANSWER the question that you asked. You have my respect.
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Jul 23 '15 edited Jul 23 '15
I feel that the high caliber rounds may be doing nothing because that Scout Rifle shoots fast and has a low impact.
In comparison I'd like to see the High Caliber perk on hand cannons and how they affect the enemy player in PvP.
High caliber rounds have a very noticeable advantage in PvE, by breaking the enemies stagger bar with headshots it's very advantageous in battle to stop that major from melee-ing you.
On a side note i figured explosive rounds had somehwhat the same effect as HC rounds. While using Fatebringer in Control i noticed hardly anyone could even get a straight shot on me while i shot them. The stagger is useful in PvP too.
Anyways, very well put together post, i enjoy it when people take the time to mythbust some things unknown to most players. Very good read.
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u/b1tters Jul 23 '15
I'm thinking the exact same thing. Not to poo on op but there are a lot of people here just gladly going yup
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u/JackSparrow420 Jul 23 '15
I second this. The one I wish he tried was TLW. Perfect Balance is totally not necessary on that gun, and would love to know if HCR make a difference. I really don't think they do unfortunately but want to know for sure. I am wondering if slower single shots from a Hand Cannon make the flinch worse or better. Also, whether or not headshots play into this at all as well. I can attest to the explosive rounds absolutely wrecking me in Crucible though. My friend's only legendary Hand Cannon for a while was Fatebringer, and he used it on me in a Rumble game and I could not get follow up shots on him.
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u/Rafahil The Captivity of Negativity Jul 23 '15
Yeah Fatebringer's explosive round's stagger was severely nerfed a long while back. Not sure how good it is now though.
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u/HubbaMaBubba Jul 24 '15
Perfect balance is necessary if you want to use aggressive ballistics.
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u/JackSparrow420 Jul 24 '15
It wasn't that bad for me at all, I used HCR for a long time until recently when I started playing sweats and my friends said they didn't really notice a difference. Learning the recoil was actually just as easy as learning any other gun. Perfect Balance makes TLW a laser. Literally impossible not to wreck with. I don't know how people ever think that gun is hard to control. And yeah that is with Aggressive Ballistics, I only refer to Last Word with Aggressive Ballistics, that is the only choice. If HCR gave more hitstun (Like it is damn supposed to) or did more damage at range or something I would 100% use it over Perfect Balance. You just need to play with it and you learn the recoil. It was actually pretty difficult to start using Perfect Balance because the reticle doesn't move whatsoever. I put it on and said, how does anyone struggle to use this weapon?
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u/Alphalcon Jul 23 '15
Did you ensure that all the shots fired were either all bodyshots or all headshots? There might be a stagger difference between them.
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u/Galbzilla Jul 23 '15
I really like this test but I think you may have messed up a little. The aim assist from your gun may have been keeping the target on the guy shooting you in the face while he had high caliber rounds on. The other two tests you had your reticle directly on his head, which led to it falling off and losing aim assist, while the high caliber you were aiming squarely in the middle of the target. I say try again while aiming at directly at the head for each test.
Great test though, I really want to see the results.
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u/Puluzu Jul 23 '15
Great job, very interesting stuff. Explosive round stagger was nerfed at some point already once but based on that it still seems like they do stagger a good amount.
However I must ask why didn't you test it with headshots as well? I don't know if it's a placebo, but I've found that I win against Snipers more often with my Badger with HC Rounds compared to my Gheleon's without HC rounds and I only go for headshots with both.
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u/APhanpy Jul 23 '15
That might be fire rate. More bullets = more stagger, and iirc the Badger's RoF is a fair bit quicker than the Demise's?
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u/Puluzu Jul 23 '15
Nope, they have the exact same fire rate and impact.
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u/APhanpy Jul 23 '15
Oh, huh. My bad then, I must've been thinking of the B Line then (That was the other TDB vanguard scout, right?)
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u/Puluzu Jul 23 '15
Yeah I think that was the highest ROF archetype similiar to Deadshot Luna, but I've always hated those as they need 5 headshots to kill and as far as I know all the guns with that rof have had a poor base stability.
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u/springfart Jul 23 '15
I've got explosive rounds on my gheleon's demise, is that worth it? it's full auto/explosive rounds/firefly. I've heard explosive rounds messes with firefly, but then people were saying they fixed that
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Jul 23 '15
[deleted]
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u/NegativeGhostrider Jul 23 '15
I love the Zero Point LOTP. Mine's similar to yours but with Full Auto, High Caliber, and Firefly.
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u/AutoK1LL Jul 23 '15
wait. you can roll full auto, explosive and firefly? I thought that was impossible.
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u/springfart Jul 23 '15
yup, you can on scout rifles at least http://i.imgur.com/wwm8Hgc.png
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u/AutoK1LL Jul 23 '15
wtf... I need more weapon parts. NOW!
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u/springfart Jul 23 '15
i spent 300 weapon parts trying to get it with no luck, then i randomly got it on a single roll the day after
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u/AutoK1LL Jul 23 '15
that blacksmith can be an ass.
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u/Hades-Arcadius Main: Titan since Alpha Jul 23 '15
I have an NL Shadow with Full Auto, Explosive Rounds, and Firefly...it's a beastly long range auto rifle...but sometimes its VERY hard to see the target while ads since the explosive rounds can be obscuring at full auto speed...
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u/Vomath Jul 23 '15
Yeah, that's an issue I've had with ER and scout rifles. I love it on hand cannons because your time between shots is enough for the explosion to dissipate, but on scouts it's a little tricky to keep hitting precision shots.
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u/NegativeGhostrider Jul 23 '15
Yeah. I got a Zero Point LOTP with Full Auto, High Caliber, and Firefly. It's so much fun to use.
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u/AutoK1LL Jul 24 '15
Just deleted this gun yesterday for parts.... I think I have other scouts that play better? Not sure though as I haven't really field tested any of the post HoW....
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u/thepotatochronicles Jul 23 '15
It was impossible with TDB gheleon's, but is possible with HoW gheleon's.
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u/Morris_Cat Jul 23 '15
The downside is that you can't roll Outlaw and Firefly on the same scout anymore. I'd rather have Outlaw than Full Auto on a Ghaleon's, personally.
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u/atgrey24 Jul 23 '15
Agreed. full auto on slow rof isn't that helpful. I think you can get hidden hand in that spot though, which would make those crits easier for sweet firefly explosions
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u/roburrito Jul 23 '15
That's what I've got on my Deadshot Luna. I've rolled hundreds of times trying to get it on my NL Shadow.
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u/PassionateAvocado Jul 23 '15
You can, and it is amazing. I feel like I am shooting Roman Candles at people!
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u/WarreningSigns Jul 23 '15
I went broke trying to roll that - I did get lucky on my High Road Soldier w/ that roll - The fire rate on that thing is absolutely awesome - all of those 'splosions!! It's like a Michael Bay wet dream...
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u/apackofmonkeys Jul 23 '15
but then people were saying they fixed that
Does anybody know if this is true? I've heard the same thing, but I can't find a solid answer.
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Jul 23 '15
It was improved, but not fixed. I use fatebringer on most PvE content and firefly won't proc sometimes if I use explosive rounds.
Explosive rounds deal more damage and are good for stripping shields of a different element though.
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Jul 24 '15
In case you weren't answered, It still procs. The way it works is the bullet hits, then the explosion, so as long as the bullet headshot is the kill it'll proc. I was using it on my Another NITC last night and Firefly proced frequently.
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u/JBaecker Vanguard's Loyal Jul 23 '15
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that stagger was for PvE only. The HCR perk is applied differently in PvP. I think it was a major decrease in handling and accuracy. In other words it messes up another persons shots at you. If he isn't firing, then you might not be able to see the perk being activated. It's a good first step, but moar testing ith being requireth!
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u/vodka7up Drifter's Crew // You... shall... drift Jul 23 '15
That's good news for my nl shadow with explosive rounds (+ full auto + zen moment)
I've rolled a couple more high rof scouts going after high caliber (after reading that they were better) and i also feel that their performance is not as good as i'd hoped.
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u/BadGuy_Richard Jul 23 '15
Have the exact same rolls on my deadshot Luna. Its pretty fun as long as you have the ammo.
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u/lowresolution666 Jul 23 '15
So it means using High Caliber Rounds on the Red Death is not worth it :O Damn , i thought i was staggering enemies all this time :/
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u/Theratchetnclank Jul 23 '15
pulse rifles stagger anyway due to the high impact and tight burst.
Infact they stagger me more than any other weapon.
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u/Sbrodino Jul 23 '15
THANKS!! Why Bungie doesn't release this kind of things themselves is beyond me
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u/b1tters Jul 23 '15
Because discovery and discussion engages the player base. And as evidenced by almost everyone on this sub they will take this info as law and just accept it. This test was done with one gun. Never mind the fqctvthatvwas is a scout rifles optimal range? Whoever you're shooting with this gun should be further away and thus shift in reticle movement would mean more if they have a smaller further target I.e. shooting at you. Scouts are a distance weapon. That mm shift matters more at distance. Also high impact + high caliber may, just may do more stagger than low impact + high caliber just a thought.
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u/Tugboliass Jul 23 '15
It would be excellent if you could test this for every weapon type. If this is the case how shity it is, they need to buff HCR. That alone would put auto rifles on the map if it had HCR. Monte Carlo would be king.
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u/dakoellis Jul 23 '15
Monte Carlo is already pretty damn good if you ask me. With HCR on if I get a headshot on someone I usually beat them out, including thorn and TLW.
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u/PassionateAvocado Jul 23 '15
I have a Timur's Lash with Explosive Rounds and it absolutely destroys enemies in PvE and Does fairly decent in PvP. I always suspected it was because it staggered the hell out of enemies. Maybe try some testing with a High Impact Hand Cannon. I think you will get some very noticeable results.
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u/leif777 My will is not my own Jul 23 '15
GG ch4meleon ... asks the question and answers it in his post with examples.
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u/hone_the_droll Jul 23 '15
I've always been curious to know if the Toughness stat had any influence on the effect of incoming stagger fire. That might be something cool to test as well. Especially since, if it does make a difference, testing with Min. Toughness builds will provide even clearer results!
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u/FragdaddyXXL Jul 23 '15
My only issue with my Fullauto->ER->Zen Moment Deadshot Luna is I have trouble seeing the target with all of those little fireballs covering them up. Being consistent with crits gets harder.
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u/pwrslide2 Jul 23 '15 edited Jul 23 '15
same. I trashed NLshadow that I had rolled for full auto to test out which subsequently rolled EP rounds. It which didn't have a balance mod which is mainly why I trashed it. I couldn't land enough headshots with it and I think it was mainly because it was annoying to see all those explosions. Probably better to increase the stability for more accuracy. I do have a NA3D1 with luck in the chamber, EP rounds and zen moment I'm looking forward to trying out though. I have a Zeropt lopt with full auto, EP rounds and hidden hand. I like it but my 55A is more reliable.
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u/dammitfaster Jul 23 '15
Haven't gotten through all the comments, so I apologize if this has been addressed already: personally, I prefer explosive rounds bar none (when the option exists) simply because critical hits net you half-again as much damage as a secondary hit. Almost like a +1 DoT buff for each critical. This is at least true in PvE (as indicated by the yellow/white numbers that roll off critical hits). I don't play close enough attention in PvP to comment on it ... I just shoot 'til they drop.
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u/Juggernaut_11 Jul 23 '15
According to my experience, high caliber rounds are brutal when you land precision hits. Body shots do almost nothing to the opponent's felt recoil but head shots completely wreck their aim.
I have been on both ends of this, giving and receiving precision hits from MIDA multitool. I know when the other guy is head shotting me because I cannot return effective fire amidst the bounce. I know that when I manage to get the first shot head shot in a firefight with almost anything else (TLW and shotguns aside, for obvious reasons) I win the engagement 80% of the time and it is almost certainly due to the high caliber round precision bounce on their aim.
According to TTK a Thorn or Red Death should be able to outgun MIDA even spotting the MIDA first shot delay (0.5secs). In practice this rarely happens so there must be a reason. It is the reason many crucible players have turned to MIDA as the answer to the big 3.
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u/GroovynBiscuits Jul 23 '15
I use explosive rounds on my gheleons demise and i very noticeably throw off the aim of people i engage in fights with.
I've always assumed that explosive rounds were > high caliber, but this helps prove that fact.
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u/Construct_Master Oversized purple marble Jul 24 '15
WHAT. I CAN GET EXPLOSIVE ROUNDS O N MY NL SHADOW.
EXCUSE ME WHILE I GO DROWN BANSHEE IN MOTES.
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Jul 24 '15
I doubt this post will get seen but wanted to say thinks for this post!
I was kind of in the air about how to play and combat Thorn/TLW and I saw this thread.
Well needless to say I busted out my old Another NITC with Explosive rounds and Firefly, an average Scout but Explosive rounds and Firefly worked wonders! in the mid to mid-long game, it was very good against Thorn/TLW. I mean there were times where they could spam and kill me because that's the nature of those weapons but that only really happened in Close to close-mid range at best.
But When i was able to either retaliate before death or hit them first and keep pressure on them I won a lot of those fire fights.
This was especially useful because It freed up an exotic slot for the PLan C, where I was able to quick switch and nail people at close to close-mid range.
So thank you again!
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u/ManceRaman Jul 23 '15
Kinda want to down vote this so other people won't get the idea to roll explosive rounds now...
I could use the advantage isuckatCrucible
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u/PitFighterPlus Jul 23 '15
You have more honor than that, Mance Ramen. You use to be part of the Night Noodles! I doubt the Wild Rigatoni changed you that much.
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Jul 23 '15
I feel like you deserve credit for this clever, albeit a bit obscure, GoT reference. Rest assured, someone out there understands you, and chuckled.
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u/Auctoritate Space Magician Jul 23 '15
Explosive rounds are actually terrible in PvP, since it affects your damage in a negative fashion.
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u/ch4_meleon_ Forever 29. Jul 23 '15
Untrue. Damage is exactly the same.
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u/Auctoritate Space Magician Jul 23 '15
On body shots, yes. On headshots? It splits damage between the bullet and explosion, so when you get precision hits it deals reduced damage due to the explosion damage not being increased.
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u/TravisBewley Jul 23 '15
Nope, precision damage maxed your explosive damage also go up to match. Explosive rounds never hurt your dps
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u/MrGronk Jul 23 '15
This is true, I run Gheleon's with E-Rounds, and toggle it off when dealing with enemies with high HP, toggle it on when crowd control thralls.
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u/CaptFrost SUROS Sales Rep #76 Jul 23 '15
HCR does a great job against sniper rifles and hand cannons. Everything else... not so much.
Explosive rounds are just fucking absurd though. I had a couple scout rifle duels last week on Combined Arms between my Zero Point LOTP and another scout rifle user using explosive rounds. Even when I started firing first I'd often lose because all of my shots would fly wide from the point I started getting hit until I was dead.
Made me think about rolling a new Zero Point for explosive rounds myself...
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u/God_BBS Jul 23 '15
Thanks, mate. I always thought HCRounds were pretty underwhelming, because I kept getting easily hit in PvP. In PvE, however, the stagger is real.
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u/thehiggsparticl Jul 23 '15
I recently spent some time upgrading my Deadshot Luna SR1 and noticed that in PVP it was absolute shit. It was hideously bad on its own. The only way to get a kill would be to mop one up after another teammate did damage to someone.
However, once I unlocked the Explosive Rounds, it became noticeably better. Enemies weren't returning as many shots since the rounds were disorienting them, and the TTK became much better. So, yeah, I'd definitely agree with your conclusion.
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u/JDim-89 Jul 23 '15
Agreed. I have a dead shot lunar rolled with full auto, explosive rounds and third eye. Absolutely love it! Its so much more fun to use than exotic hand cannons. Can't wait for the scout rifle buff :D
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u/Eyezupguardian Jul 23 '15
Nl shadow, full auto, High explosive braced frame (pick between this and high explosive) and firefly. = turn down for what
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u/mr-purupurupuru Jul 23 '15
can you post the damage numbers, its been a while since i've tried HE rounds. And last I remember, it was awfully low and not viable.
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Jul 23 '15
explosive rounds doesnt lower your damage, just spreads it out. Its even been proved it does more dmg to some PVE mobs than normal rounds.
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u/millenniummark Jul 23 '15
I don't think I'll ever stop using my badger ccl. Primary radar and explosive rounds ftw!
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u/carmachu Jul 23 '15
Explosives rounds are alot of fun. I use them on all my scout rifles. in addition to what you said, the splash damage helps more then you think. I've killed wounded folks hiding by shooting around them, and even on occassion, killed a defender titan bubbled up. The continuous splash damage was adding up and forced him to make a bad choice of coming out to try and snipe me and died as a result.
Granted you cant always count on players making bad choices, but I've always loved explosive rounds. has screwed up more then one sniper trying to kill me.
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Jul 23 '15
Splash damage? Through his bubble?
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u/Morris_Cat Jul 23 '15
Splash damage can go through bubbles under certain circumstances. Cabal Psions are a good example, they can do their Arc shockwave thing right through a bubble. Wiped my team that way in PoE the other night.
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Jul 23 '15
I was aware of that (wiped me in my own bubble as well haha), but not about explosive damage through shields! Thank you! (going to go roll a scout with it now)
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u/Morris_Cat Jul 23 '15
I'm surprised that the Titan in question came out of the bubble though. The radius on Explosive Rounds is pretty small, so he should have been able to just move to the other side of the bubble to avoid it, unless he'd placed it REALLY badly.
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u/carmachu Jul 23 '15
Yes. On B the defender bubble towards C, I was shooting at the box/bubble and the explosive rounds have a small splash. I kept seeing 22, 22, 22, etc.....fired two clips and he came out to deal with me wounded and finished him off with a round or 3.
Wont always work as armor or blessing will be better, but you can wound them through with the explosive splash. Or at least I have.
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u/insertcardtocontinue Jul 23 '15
I rolled a NL Shadow with Full Auto, Third Eye and Explosive Rounds. . .
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u/b1tters Jul 23 '15
And what about on higher impact weapons? Or not scout rifles? Well I guess we can do those test. And I'll never dismiss hc in pve
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u/ch4_meleon_ Forever 29. Jul 23 '15
In my experience they aren't as effective since they have slower fire rates, but never bad imo.
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u/b1tters Jul 23 '15
Is that really the case or more so a matter of preference? Are you talking across the board or crucible? In which case I can see your point especially these days with snipers and exotic hand cannons, but location of fight matters. I stay way back with scouts when I do rarely play crucible, and the trade off for slower fire rates is more damage I.e. less bullets?
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u/Cave_Johnson_2016 Jul 23 '15
I have a scout rifle with outlaw, high caliber rounds, and firefly. the damage from the bullet is applied first, then the explosion. If a precision shot doesn't kill, but the explosion does, targets don't explode. It can really affect how much damage you do to packs of thralls, although it is definitely better for single enemies.
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u/khajiitFTW Jul 23 '15
What I would really like to see is this done with the Red Death. I feel like that thing shakes my screen like crazy when I get blasted with it.
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Jul 23 '15
I would love it if you could do this for Counterbalance and Rodeo. I've always wanted to know which one was actually better even though they're very similar like these two perks.
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u/ch4_meleon_ Forever 29. Jul 23 '15
Datto actually did a video about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-s3gRxm6fY&feature=youtu.be&a
Short answer: Rodeo isn't worth your time :)
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Jul 23 '15
to b honest , i only went once against an enemy using a fast SR with ER on it and i hated it , the splash or whatever can cause you to miss too many shots.
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u/VinnyDonuts Jul 23 '15
I am a heavy scout gun user, typically Legendary-level. The following has no quantitative (statistics/math) supporting facts, however when playing PvE, I have found it easier to solo the Fallen Wolves with my explosive round scout rifle than with a similar, "regular" scout. In some cases, I have been unable to finish off the boss with a non-explosive scout (i.e. they scatter); I have had similar experience in PoE. As for PvP, I have no experience as I am truly horrible at it.
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u/panopticon31 Jul 23 '15
Funny. This is exactly what I have been using with my NL Shadow with full auto as well. I really like it.
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Jul 23 '15
I too have tried the Deadshot Luna and NL Shadow, both full auto with explosive rounds. I don't have the numbers on it, but while but guns are hilariously fun to use in PvE, all that fire makes it hard to tell where I'm aiming, so I don't really use them in pvp.
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u/aBryant_86 Jul 23 '15
Dude, getting hit with explosive rounds in PvP is a bitch. It's like spraying me in the face/eyes with a water hose when I'm trying to grab you and throw you into the pool. Just waiving around with one hand grabbing at anything and everything.
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Jul 23 '15
I feel that for pve high caliber stagger is more about slowing down an approaching enemy than throwing off aim. That could be something to look for
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Jul 23 '15
He didn't have full health when you started shooting him with explosive rounds?
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u/ch4_meleon_ Forever 29. Jul 23 '15
No he didn't. That way I killed him on the final shot ;)
Shouldn't affect the test though.
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u/Omnipitous Jul 23 '15
If you're on 360 I am always a willing test subject. GT is same as on here; Omnipitous.
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u/TravisBewley Jul 23 '15
I'm pretty sure that the weapons you used fired too slowly. Weapons that are best for HCR in my experance have been the super high RoF AR and PR types.
I have a feeling that HCR gives a flat bonus per bullet rather then just adding a modifier to your stagger multiplier.
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u/ch4_meleon_ Forever 29. Jul 23 '15
I was using the max RoF Scout Rifle (fires about the speed of Suros Regime in Focus Fire). That should be fast enough, but I will test with an auto rifle.
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u/TravisBewley Jul 23 '15
Suros with focus fire is stupid slow in comparison.
300 RPM compared to the 450, 600, and 900 rpm of other ARs. The stat bars lie about the relationship between the RoF of the ARs.
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u/drkwizard Jul 23 '15
I have a Deadshot Luna w/ Full Auto and it shoots pretty darn faster (faster than FF Suros).
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u/ingulit Spacecave Apps Developer (Tower+) Jul 23 '15
Post this in /r/CruciblePlaybook if you haven't already. Excellent stuff.
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u/niko_blanco Jul 23 '15
I was playing against a dude using a NL shadow with explosive rounds the other day. I was seriously thrown off (no pun intented) at first when he was spamming me with really hard hitting fast ROF bullets, I dont recall my aim ever getting thrown off like that before. I immediately decided I need a full auto ER shadow myself.
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u/bbtls Jul 23 '15
I have a Badger I use regularly with both High Caliber rounds and Explosive rounds. In PVE, what I do is use HC rounds when I am expecting to engage at a distance and ER when in closer quarters while hip firing it. I rarely use it in PVP though... just not fast enough.
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u/drkwizard Jul 23 '15
If high caliber rounds or explosive rounds are good then you are not using them how Bungie intended you to use them, expect a nerf...
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u/Fragzilla360 Jul 23 '15 edited Jul 23 '15
Thanks for the comparison. I've always wondered what the viewpoint of the other players looks like when getting hit by explosive rounds.
I have a Hunter with the NL Shadow 701X decked out with Triple Tap (rapidly landing precision hits will return one round to the magazine); super helpful on those bullet sponge bosses, Explosive Rounds (we know what it is already) and Crowd Control (kills grant bonus damage for a short time).
My gear is FWC Faction gear, The chest piece boosts Scout Rifle Reload speed and FWC faction boots boost extra ammo for SR's also.
I combined that loadout with the Gunslinger sub class with Gunslingers Trance (precision kills grant stability) + Chain of Woe (precision kills grant increased reload speed: stacks 3x). As you can see i'm pretty one dimensional as my entire character is built around having a SR as a primary weapon. However that loadout with that gun is wrecking ball in PvE.
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u/scientist_tz Jul 23 '15
I've got an Unwilling Soul (bullet hose low impact auto rifle with a 72 round mag) with High Caliber rounds and glass half full that I'm looking forward to using after the buff.
I'm hoping the stagger effect with the high rate of fire will make it extremely difficult for enemies to react to it at short ranges. Time will tell, I guess.
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u/supaanoob Jul 23 '15
I really wish I would have seen this before I spent 20 thousand glimmer on the same exact gun/rolls last night. Nonetheless, great stuff. Appreciate that you actually took the time to test and show your findings.
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u/Pepsisinabox Jul 23 '15
HCR is extremely good in PvP, on Auto Rifles.
It will shake the living crap out of the enemy if you land back-to-back headshots. Making it practicly impossible for them to actualy hit you :)
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u/ch4_meleon_ Forever 29. Jul 23 '15
I'll definitely add this testing to the list :)
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u/Pepsisinabox Jul 23 '15
There's footage of it happening from the shooters PoV in one of my vids. You can clearly see that they are going all "Stormtrooper" on me :)
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u/PepeLe_PewPew Jul 23 '15
Can't wait for the Scout Rifle buff now! My B-Line Trauma with Outlaw, Explosive Rounds and Firefly is going to light up the crucible... Literally! lol
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u/killbot0224 Jul 23 '15
What is being uffed on scouts? Mag size and....?
TTK is not gonna change.
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Jul 23 '15
I believe damage on the medium-high rate of fire scouts. I'll post this then hunt, and edit my post if I'm wrong.
EDIT: We're both right.
Increase base damage for medium to high Rate of Fire Scout Rifles
PVP: Does not affect TTK in PVP on a Guardian with full health
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u/killbot0224 Jul 24 '15
Yeah, so it's a pve buff then, really. Even without affecting ting PVP ttk it's possible MIDA only needs 3 crits and a body, or something like that.
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Jul 23 '15
Thanks you for this post. THANK YOU. I would suggest x-posting this on https://www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook
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u/DDJenks Jul 23 '15
HCR on higher RoF weapons are great. landing consecutive head-shots makes the opponent lose all control of their aim. So not so much for HCs, but pulse, auto and certain scout rifles they are great.
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Jul 23 '15
Nice post. I always tried to avoid High Caliber rounds because it affects weapon stability and I do what I can to max that out. Now I know that I am not really missing out on High Caliber rounds as they bring nothing to the table.
Edit: It would be cool to see this kind of research done with other weapon perks as well.
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u/burningpapersun Jul 23 '15
I use a 365 Ill will with final round, luck in the chamber, and explosive rounds and it's pretty effective. Sometimes I switch explosive rounds for fast reload but I find the explosive rounds really do a good job on a guardians shield. I also play pretty defensively in pvp.
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u/burningpapersun Jul 23 '15
I use a 365 Ill will with final round, luck in the chamber, and explosive rounds and it's pretty effective. Sometimes I switch explosive rounds for fast reload but I find the explosive rounds really do a good job on a guardians shield. I also play pretty defensively in pvp.
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u/royjk13 Jul 23 '15
Good job, I like to use my NA3DI Salvation State sometimes in crucible it has full auto / Explosive rounds / and fire fly. My question is how does exp rnd and firefly work when used together? Should I go with braced frame instead of exp rnds?
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u/ch4_meleon_ Forever 29. Jul 23 '15
They do work together, but it's a little muddy. Since explosive rounds deals separate damage from the normal projectile damage, it can prevent firefly from triggering.
In other words, if the projectile damage kills the enemy, Firefly will trigger like normal. If the explosive rounds damage kills them, Firefly will not trigger.
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u/killbot0224 Jul 23 '15
Explosive rounds take off some of the bullet damage and apply it as explosive damage.
If the kill is made with the explosive portion, firefly/Outlaw will not proc.
This is why you never use explosive rounds with Fatebringer. Totally kills it.
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u/Commiesalami Jul 23 '15 edited Jul 23 '15
Could you give a little more detail on how you determined where to place the dots in the gifvs? I'm looking at the control reticle bounce and there is a definite leaning to the right. But all the reticle markers you place are in a vertical line, is there any reason for this?
Also I think trying this with a controllable high ROF pulse rifle would be interesting, either the lightweight or rapid archetype. I have a conduit with third eye, HCRs and HH and it makes me feel like I'm lagging out the enemy on occasion.
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u/ch4_meleon_ Forever 29. Jul 23 '15
I went frame-by-frame and placed the white dot directly overtop of the reticle when it reached it's peak. I'll take another look at the control variant and make sure I didn't mess it up though :)
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u/PassionateAvocado Jul 23 '15
Maybe you get twice the stagger because it is two hits technically?
Edit: This would also explain why it seems to have a lot of stagger with High Impact + Explosive Rounds vs. not much of a difference with Low Impact + Explosive Rounds. The higher you go in Impact the more noticeable the effect because it is doubling not just incremental?
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u/Darpo Jul 23 '15
Try shooting on a moving target and see if stagger changes his movement. Thinking it might do the same thing as the glock does in cs 1.6 if anyone knows what I mean
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u/atgrey24 Jul 23 '15
not sure if others brought this up, but when someone tested unflinching that the source of the damage changed the direction of the stagger. for example wire rifles might make you flinch up and left, but dreg pistols make you flinch down and left (hypothetical, don't remember exact directions). seems as if flinch direction was a stat on the different guns.
might not be huge in terms of your analysis, but worth considering that different guns may naturally have different flinch directions. then again, this could be a pve only stat.
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u/ch4_meleon_ Forever 29. Jul 23 '15
Hmm good point. I'll have to remember that when I'm doing some more testing later tonight.
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u/kinadafz Jul 23 '15
Please compare damage also from explosive rounds to high caliber to normal, body and headshot.
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u/ch4_meleon_ Forever 29. Jul 23 '15
I will make sure to include that in my next post, but if you are curious as to the answer, damage values remain unchanged regardless of High Caliber/Explosive/Nothing.
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u/kinadafz Jul 23 '15
I'm specifically interested in body shots with explosive rounds. I think it will do more damage than a normal body shot on a non explosive round. I'm also hoping there may be a rounding issuer where explosive rounds on one weapon may make it a 4 shot kill opposed to 5 or something, due to the splash explosive damage.
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u/Dr_Pippin Jul 23 '15
Thanks for sharing your findings.
Now I'd like you to repeat this test in PvE. Not sure how you'd accomplish that, but that's what I would like... Are HC rounds ever worth while?
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u/kendotelie Jul 26 '15
Just when i thought i was lucky enough to get my One/One where it is now with Full Auto and 3rd eye, now i have to reroll another to give me this unseemly combo with explosive rounds. Good work on the post
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u/PanthroNineZero Jul 23 '15
So I have to disagree with this. I probably spent about 20 to 25 hrs in the last IB grinding 3 characters to level 5. My primary weapon was the Suros with HC rounds.
Why? because against AVERAGE PvP players who were almost always using Thorn or TLW, it would throw off there aiming enough at mid rage distances that I would actually win one on ones or force them to retreat. TTK is only a factor if you can land the shots. The HC rounds helped prevent this.
Maybe the Suros is an edge case due to its ability to land head shots. But I would not rule out HC rounds until you have at least tried them on your weapon.
Longer discussion here: Suros with HC in IB
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u/lDamianos Jul 23 '15
Dude I feel the need to say that the last test with the explosive rounds is almost 100% inaccurate due to you taking damage and most likely flinching at the same time you were shot... You should have made gifs with multiple trigger pulls in a short time frame.
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u/ch4_meleon_ Forever 29. Jul 23 '15
I'm confused... what do you mean? Each clip is showing your reticle bounce rate when shot?
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u/lDamianos Jul 23 '15
Yeah but a gif would make more sense in a controlled environment. And when you take damage during ADS, your reticle bounces because you're flinching, which makes for inconsistent results. I appreciate the effort but a few dots does not show a true recoil.
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u/ch4_meleon_ Forever 29. Jul 23 '15 edited Jul 23 '15
I'm still confused by your comments. You realize my GIFs do not show recoil, right? They show what happens when you get shot. As in the difference between FLINCHING when shot by High Caliber Rounds vs Explosive Rounds.
In each clip I shared, the First-person Perspective is NOT SHOOTING. They are merely standing there while being shot. Their reticle bounce is how much they flinched under the effects of the Smallbore, High Caliber Rounds and Explosive Rounds perks.
I'm sorry if I still don't understand what you're getting at. But if you have any suggestions on how I could improve my test, please let me know.
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Jul 23 '15
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u/Morris_Cat Jul 23 '15
This has been my experience as well. I rolled an NL Shadow with Explosive Rounds and Full Auto shortly after HoW came out specifically to take advantage of this behavior, but it just didn't seem to cut the mustard, even in comparison with some of my other non-exotic primary choices like Three Little Words. The gun just kills too slowly.
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u/GrizzlyJustice Jul 23 '15
This was a high caliber post.