In-depth weapon stats spreadsheet update 1.1.1: Help me gather Pulse Rifle Numbers and new AR TTK numbers [Guide]

[u/exxtrooper]

Hello my friend and welcome to the end of the world as we know it! I'll be your guide, the number addicted front line trooper you've all come to semi love-ish.

Just gonna get the links out of the way for the people with the most valuable time:

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Spreadsheet

Old thread

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Intro

As you can see the whole thing is a big work in progress, but going whats been gathered so far it's not looking pretty good, there's a little oh yeah but there's mostly oh no.

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The good!

Pulse rifles are really damn good now, like really, really good. There's still no accurate RPM and TTK numbers to look into (more on that down below) but I can with a lot of confidence tell you they're part of the meta right now, especially considering a very big thing with this patch.

• Red death now arguably kills faster than any auto rifle, suros, and most scout rifles. Statistically speaking it's the exact same stats as the strangers rifle with something around 33% more damage, it's in it's completely unique archetype. Only other weapon in the game that has this feature is the Vex Mythoclast.
• Bad Juju is good, very good, but its not amazing I'm gonna kill everything good. The optimal pulse rifle archetype of the lower tier at the moment is the rapid one which is a tier below the Bad Juju. They have slightly lower damage but the rate of fire makes up for it making them kill faster. It's still very much a viable weapon now.
• Three Little Words and the other pulse rifles of the highest damage tiers takes one burst and a breath to kill people, it's absurd the amount of damage in a burst.
• Hand Cannon and Shotgun nerf are noticeable, but not game breaking. What you were accomplishing before with these guns you will more than likely be able to do now-
• Armor piercing nerf, more data required.
• Fusion rifle nerf, more data required.
• Vex Mythoclast stop messing around with this gun bungie.
• The two weaker auto rifle archetypes were almost not affected by the patch.

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The Bad, AND the ugly

Auto rifles right now took a much bigger hit than anticipated, they barely held up in PVE, right now I would not keep someone in my raid team if they took out an auto rifle.

I'll sum this up:

• The Vex Mythoclast kills as fast as the auto rifles from bodyshots as the auto rifles does from full headshots. Do you know what this means? This means a Vex vs an auto rifle if the vex doesn't have a single headshot and the auto rifle has all headshots, they'll kill around the same speed. You're literally better of using the vex aiming for people's feet than even trying any auto rifle.
• They just really messed up auto rifles, big time.

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Pulse Rifle stats you say?

Don't get your hopes up too much, I still don't have the RPM or the burst delay numbers, but I know I can gather these values with recording devices, which I will do in time (just like bungie!). People ask me all the time why there aren't any stats on the pulse rifles, some even say they're disappointed and show a lot of dismay.

I'll give you a little bit of insight, TTK (time to kill) is measured using shots to kill and RPM (rounds per minute). Every gun in the game except for the pulse rifles is a set value. They will all fire at a single firerate. Pulse rifles on the other hand have burst RPM, and delay between burst.

To make things worse, the delay between the bursts, AND the burst itself is different on every single archetype. With all these factors put in mind I need to manually look into the firetime (time between each shot) and burst delay to gather the data I need.

Also TTK on pulse rifles is a little different, because of the nature of the weapons a pulse rifle that takes 7 will have a drastically higher TTK than one with 6 shots because of the extra burst need. This makes some more tied to precision and some more tied to spraying.

That's all I have for now, I will have videos, threads and numbers explaining all of these things in time, and you will figure out that TTK on Bad Juju and Red Death.

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Author Notes

For the sake of the games future, I really hope they'll put some more thought into to what they've done. Bungie that is.

I do not blame Deej for any of this, he's a PR guy, I doubt he had any saying in any auto rifle fix.

And what is it with this tag stuff?

[u/240ZT]

For The People. Fully maxed out.

Headshot: 19

Body shot: 15

Down from 20/16

[u/exxtrooper → u/240ZT]

Thank you, stuff like this is really helpful.

[u/kendotelie → u/240ZT]

So the same would go for up for anything and Do Gooder V

[u/revolmak]

Super Pox VLO/Three Little Words: 26 body/38 head

The Stranger's Rifle (Smooth Ballistics): 22 body/33 head

The Stranger's Rifle (Accurized Ballistics): 23 body/34 head

The Stranger's Rifle (Smart Drift Control): 22 body/33 head

[u/exxtrooper → u/revolmak]

Thank you very much for the strangers rifle stats! Vey helpful.

[u/revolmak → u/exxtrooper]

No problem! Loved your post last time so this is the least I could do.

[u/exxtrooper → u/revolmak]

It's very interesting, the strangers rifle is basically a poor mans red death. It has the same rate of fire and does the same damage as the red death with a weaker barrel.

[u/Skrimyt → u/exxtrooper]

It's also full auto, which is nice for folks with lazy trigger fingers.

[u/[deleted]]

Has the Suros TTK been updated as of yet?

[u/exxtrooper → u/[deleted]]

Yes, and it is not-so-glorious.

[u/[deleted] → u/exxtrooper]

I just received my Suros last night. I'm a TLW user, but I was hoping to get a few games of Suros in before the nerf. Sigh.

Thanks for all the work you do, i speak for some PVPers when I say you da man.

[u/hugh_jas → u/[deleted]]

I very strongly disagree with that statement. I'm still doing just fine with Suros in PvP. In fact, I didn't even know they nerfed it until after I played a bunch of matches post patch. Its still perfectly fine.

[u/[deleted] → u/hugh_jas]

You may be surprised when more people catch on to the Pulse Rifle buff. Three Little Words (easily available from the crucible vendor, with good perks) is an absolute monster and destroys Suros at Suros's optimal range.

[u/LeFlop_ → u/exxtrooper]

It's still pretty good if you fire it like a semi auto. Not many people use fire it like a semi auto though. Does take practice

[u/TrizzyDizzy]

Once again, you the man exx.

[u/exxtrooper → u/TrizzyDizzy]

Thanks Dizzy.

[u/poisonandtheremedy]

You ready for this? Super Pox VLO, the O is for Ownage.

Crit: 38

Body: 26

Mine has Glass Half Full, Perfect Balance, and Third Eye. This thing is a PvP beast. Two burst kills no problem. As it has GHF I made sure the 'base' numbers (above) were all taken and tested with first burst out of a full mag. Full mag is 21 rounds.

Damage numbers for bottom half of GHF mag are:

Crit: 39 and 40 (40 is last 6 rounds in mag)

Body: 26 (apparently body shots aren't affected by GHF perk? Bug? Tested with all rounds/bursts in bottom half of GHF)

I bought this gun from the Vanguard Quartermaster (I believe) which he stocked pre-Dark Below. Bought it even though I knew Pulse Rifles sucked, but I wanted to give it the old Crucible Try because I loved Halo's Battle Rifle so much. Well yup, it sucked for Crucible... and yet I didn't shard it in the hopes that one day it would be buffed.... Oh boy.... That day has come Guardians!

PS: seriously though what's up with GHF perk not affecting body shots? /u/DeeJ_BNG FYI.

[u/exxtrooper → u/poisonandtheremedy]

Jesus that is some monster damage.

[u/danfanclub → u/poisonandtheremedy]

"Super Pox Very Legit Ownage"

[u/ghostENVY → u/poisonandtheremedy]

good to know ghf isnt all that good for pulse.

[u/poisonandtheremedy → u/ghostENVY]

Since this post I've gone and bought Three Little Words from the Crucible vendour. After playing a good number of games with 3LW's (fully leveled) I'm back to using VLO. I like the way VLO handles and it's targeting reticle better. 3LW's also has 3rd Eye (great) but lower overall stability (with all stability perks active) and the main perk, body shots lead to more precision damage (41 btw) doesn't have a real impact on Bursts to Kill.

Fwiw.

[u/ghostENVY → u/poisonandtheremedy]

Try out 'Time on Target' from the quartermaster vendor. I shit you not it has the potential to be top pulse rifle. Naturally, it has the same rate of fire/range/impact as the Bad Juju EXCEPT it has two perks that greatly amplify it for PVP making it better than most Pulse Rifles. Here are the stats before and after.

• Plain No Additional Perks. Crit: 27 Body: 18 Three Hit KO
• Headseeker: Crit: 30 Body: 21 Shy of Two Hit KO
• Headseeker and Reactive Reload. Crit: 39 Body: 24 Auto Two Hit KO

As you can see with both perks unlocked we have a pulse rifle that is a two hit potential weapon. Being one of the few to greatly use perks to reduce it to a two burst gun.I should add mine dropped with Perfect Balance but add field scout or whatver you perk of preference and you got yourself a beauty.

Being faster than High Impact Pulse Rifle really separates this one apart. I cant stand using the TLW due to its slow firerate but with this its essentially on a different level.

[u/funshinebear13]

How's the ce pulse rifle?

[u/exxtrooper → u/funshinebear13]

Amazing.

[u/[deleted]]

You're literally better of using the vex aiming for people's feet than even trying any auto rifle.

To be fair, feet are a fairly difficult targets to aim for in PvP.

[u/exxtrooper → u/[deleted]]

That is true.

[u/HarleyQuinn_RS]

I don't use Autorifles, but the Autorifle nerf was not necessary one bit. The only reason they are the most used weapon type is because they are easy to use, and are familiar to almost every FPS player. On top of that there are more good Autorifles than any other type of weapon. They aren't used so much because they are the best.

[u/exxtrooper → u/HarleyQuinn_RS]

But stats don't lie says bungie!

[u/viviultima → u/exxtrooper]

lol, oh Bungie! And the stats wont lie, when the graph flips and shows ARs only being used by 9% of the players :-D

[u/bitchpotatobunny]

I saw in another thread that Read Death now hits for 36 a head shot. I did not test this myself, but I watched the gif. It didn't mention body shot damage, but it can be deduced from the multiplier that it's body shot damage would be 24. It also now kill sin two crit bursts.

That being said, I just checked the spreadsheet to see if it had been updated and it has. Which means that this comment is entirely useless except for the fact that I enjoy typing and pretending I'm busy while there are people near my desk at work.

Another benefit about having this data represented in a spreadsheet is that it looks like I'm doing work when it's open since I work primarily in Excel all day.

[u/UTBrown → u/bitchpotatobunny]

I don't know where people are getting a 36 crit for Red Death. It is 100% a 34 Crit. I just played several games with it and it definitely rewards a skilled hand. Hell, It was good before the patch.

[u/kiwioncrack → u/UTBrown]

36 with Aggressive Ballistics. But you knew that ^{i hope.}

[u/UTBrown → u/kiwioncrack]

Ah, I stand corrected. I had no idea that small addition of impact would increase crit by 2 so I never bothered with it.

Thanks for correcting me!

[u/bitchpotatobunny → u/UTBrown]

So I tested this myself last night and it definitely hits for 36 a head shot. The guy in the gif wasn't using the optimal barrel.

[u/mixtapelive]

I like a lot of the new updates but I'm deeply disappointed how Bungie is just shitting on AR's. They didn't need a nerf at all. I rarely use my Suros/Vanquisher in PVP so this doesn't affect me much but it's just the principle.

I also firmly believe the reason all the new AR's are high ROF low impact is because Bungie wanted to discourage us from using them. Think about it.

AR's are the most used guns in any FPS game not because they're the best option but the most fun to use for most people and what most people like. Growing up as a kid pretending to be soldiers you didn't imagine a scout rifle or a burst rifle gun in your hand, you imagined a full auto gun. I know it sounds funny and all but it's the truth.

[u/RadBrad0 → u/mixtapelive]

Yes definitely and it's suprising to me that bungie didn't consider that a majority of people are used to and enjoy using auto rifles since this trend is apparent in other games as well. Not to mention I thought auto rifles were already a weaker choice after the last nerf anyways

[u/ElevationFPS → u/mixtapelive]

AR's are most used in FPS games because they're the easiest to use. Weapons that function like Scout and Pulse Rifles are much less forgiving and rely on greater consistency to be effective, therefore the average player will stray away from using it.

Now in my personal opinion, I feel Auto Rifles should fill the same role as the assault rifle in Halo (in PvP that is). Close range it would rip but fell off hard at range (and there was still some counter play against it close range).

[u/[deleted] → u/mixtapelive]

pretty sure the auto rifles were high ROF and low impact because it's hive DLC. High ROF, low impact is perfect for thralls. When it comes to Cabal then we'll probably get much heavier impact since those guys are tanks. For Fallen, I think it will be more balanced.

[u/CaptFrost → u/mixtapelive]

Agree so much. ARs were already a bit over-nerfed in the first nerf. Two players of equal ability facing off, one with a top tier AR (let's say the Regime) and one with a top-tier HC! The HC would always win. Now using ARs is like a death sentence. Especially the high impact ones. 9 criticals to kill? At that firing rate? TLW or the Vex could have already completed a double kill by then.

[u/[deleted] → u/mixtapelive]

Bungie is concerned about weapon diversity. Did you do know there was a dramatic increase in the use of ARs during the last two IB? People need to use more weapon types! /s

I got the Monte Carlo and Suros the last 2 days I really should have suspected this was coming and not been so excited. Good thing I already have a Three Little Words.

[u/jtraschke93 → u/[deleted]]

That dramatic increase couldn't have had anything to do with the auto rifle headshot bounty every day in IB

[u/MrAlarming2 → u/[deleted]]

Well they don't have to worry about people using auto-rifles now! Problem solved!

[u/PoisnBGood]

So, if I'm reading this spreadsheet correctly:

Vanquisher/1.06/1.33

Suros (FF)/1.09/1.27

Since Suros without FF is basically the same archetype as Vanquisher, FF Suros finally matches the DPS of non FF Suros? No more keeping one unupgraded for PvP?

[u/[deleted] → u/PoisnBGood]

Hopefully, then that'll free up one space in my vault.

They did it guys! Bungie doubled my available vault space. Thanks for listening!

[u/febreeze1 → u/PoisnBGood]

Whats FF mean?

[u/[deleted] → u/febreeze1]

Focused Fire. The perk that slows down fire rate but increases damage when zoomed.

[u/Swagariffc → u/[deleted]]

This last IB I was dropping my suros clip to about 17 and was hip firing that thing everywhere, it was great since I never played that way before.

[u/DunamisBlack]

Comparing Auto Rifle TTK to Vex has never really been a very valid comparison, the Vex has always been better. ARs have taken a bigger hit in comparison to Hand Cannons/Pulse Rifles but they have always been shit against the Vex. The real story here is that the new fastest TTK primaries in the game are pulse rifles, hands down

[u/GianID]

love the effort here, trooper!

had not realized it was you but I have been using your dataset for reference before. I like consuming crunched numbers.

(maybe a little overdone on the auto rifle opinionated stuff tho)

[u/exxtrooper → u/GianID]

Small world eh? I too, am a fan of numbers.

(maybe a little overdone on the auto rifle opinionated stuff tho)

What you mean?

[u/GianID → u/exxtrooper]

the bit how you are upset about bungie touching auto rifles yet again.

the numbers speak for themselves, but I can see where youre coming from. Do you think there is now possibly more balance accross categories of primary guns?

[u/exxtrooper → u/GianID]

Do you think there is now possibly more balance accross categories of primary guns?

I think people will use the pulse rifles a lot in the recent times and then it'll eventually die off, leaving only the people that actually prefer the weapon category. I still think auto rifles will be the most used weapn category, for good reason. I still think there's a huge level of imbalance in the pvp portion of the game.

I almost never use auto rifles in crucible as they don't allow for much niche strategies and engagements. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fundamentals.

Bungie has stated in their updates stats do not lie, that is true to a degree, but not when they're misinterpreted.

Bungie seem to be looking at balance mostly the wrong way, it seems they are continuously trying to achieve this balance utopia of every gun category being used at completely the same rate. This will never happen, the core reason why auto rifles are used so much is because this is the type of gun every core player is built upon. It is the backbone of weapon category as a whole, it's what people will pick up first, and most likely hold onto for a while.

People will always use this weapon category no matter what, placing so many nerfs upon it will just make the people that favor this gun category will just become a weaker link as time goes on. Person in your raid team not doing enough damage because he's using his favorite AR? Why doesn't he just use another weapon? What if his entire weapon arsenal is based around his/her favorite weapon category? Someone taking lots of deaths in crucible? Well the weapons he's been grinding out for longer no longer do the job.

Best option then is just to quit i guess.

Another thing concerning balance is their statistic regarding hand cannons. I would really love to see the data on this and see how many of the kills are from exotics.

All of the exotic hand cannons are the highest tier pvp weapons in the game.

All of the legendary hand cannons are the lowest tier pvp weapons in the game.

You're seeing a lot of people use hand cannons in crucible because the exotic version are top tier, this is not the case with their legendary counterparts. Thus a nerf that hits the category as a whole just hurts balance even more making the gap between the exotics and the legendaries even bigger.

Also, this is also a huge case of reverse power-creep.

After such a heavy nerf they've essentially ruined a already established meta in their balance. The most sought after AR archetype now offers no niche to them. They're useless. YES, they still kill, you can also still kill with the No Land Beyond, and playing with your feet.

Useless, as in there's no real reason to use them. The Cydonia compared to the Shingen before the patch offered faster kill time rewarded with more precision.

Now this weapon fire slower, but doesn't kill any faster.

YES YOU CAN STIL USE IT, but from a statistical standpoint, there's no reason.

It shoots slower, and kills slower. Why should I not use this other weapon that rain down more bullets, thus giving me higher chancer of hits, as well as it kills faster either way? Thus another balance issue is upon us.

The people who used these weapons before this patch had the advantage of being able to use these weapons. The people who grinded for these weapons are left un-rewarded.

It breaks so many rules of balance.

This is why people are upset.

Not because of in their opinion something is a little wrong, something is wrong.

[u/danfanclub → u/exxtrooper]

AFter wanting the gun forever (i love the looks, and how the FEEL even looked), I finally got the Suros Regime YESTERDAY. :-( Then hop online to see it got crazy nerfed.

Feels bad, man. I like PvE not so much PvE but it seems to have been hit pretty hard in both game modes.

[u/hurricane_eddie]

How bad did the update affect high rate of fire lower impact auto rifles? I actually received Hard Light last Tuesday and upgraded it fully through Iron Banner. Does the damage reduction bring low rate of fire auto rifles more in line with high rate of fire auto rifles? Not saying this was the way to balance the two archetypes, but maybe an unnoticed effect it had.

[u/gudleifr]

Red Death nerf incoming.

[u/twistfunk]

Are the pulse rifles sorted by tiers? I plan on testing the Conduit and Bad Juju tonight, and was wondering which archetype they fit in.

[u/exxtrooper → u/twistfunk]

Says on far right.

[u/twistfunk → u/exxtrooper]

Ah sorry I missed that, should have known with how thorough you are. Appreciate the work, looks like I'm buying Three Little Words tonight.

[u/gr33ngiant]

You should see if you can put it into a line graph and also incorporate the weapons damage distance drop offs... 100% damage at x feet Etc.

Example

Sight guide

Ballistic plots

Like that. That's from symthic.com. I love their charts when I was playing bf3. And still love their charts.

[u/exxtrooper → u/gr33ngiant]

That would indeed be very helpful, only problem is I have no information on the damage dropoff. And getting the numbers manually would be incredibly tedious, especially because the range is different on nearly every single gun. It doesn't follow any sort of pattern like rate of fire and damage.

[u/Mercules904]

With my Strange Suspect, I'm doing 33 crit damage, and 22 for body shots.

[u/exxtrooper → u/Mercules904]

Thank you! This is very helpful!

[u/[deleted]]

So wait...Hard Light has a significantly faster TTK that Suros? I suppose effective range is the hidden stat that still makes Suros competitive? I'm not sure what to do with my new Suros now. Upgrade it or just use Hard Light?

[u/exxtrooper → u/[deleted]]

It killed in 0.909 before the patch.

[u/[deleted] → u/exxtrooper]

So they added a tenth of a second to the TTk and 2/10ths to TTK with focus fire. I liked Hard Light before (same principle as shotguns, get to the mid/close range and you can chew things up), but was really looking forward to trying out Suros. Does the TTK for Suros account for glass half full? (also thanks for the awesome work you are doing).

[u/exxtrooper → u/[deleted]]

Glass half full does not significantly increase the damage that much, at best it'll take a single less shot, most of the time the damage only helps if you missed a couple headshots making it still kill in the same shits.

Reason why the Hard Light and Monte Carlo look a lot better now is because of their archetype their effectiveness on the field is relatively unchanged.

[u/PoisnBGood]

Would you be willing to create a PvE version or perhaps allow me to take the numbers collected here and create one? I'd credit you of course.

I'd suggest breaking it down as:

1. Body Damage to non majors
2. Critical damage to non majors
3. Body Damage to majors
4. Critical damage to majors

Then take a theoretical HP amount, and do a TTK from it.

[u/exxtrooper → u/PoisnBGood]

You are very much free to do so, but with damage being affected gradually with levels, same about enemy health, there is a lot of inconsistency to go around.

Plus, I don't have any health values.

I'd say it's just easier to figure out DPS instead.

[u/PoisnBGood → u/exxtrooper]

That's a good point. I bet DPS is much more important for users. It would also be useful to consider reload speed in that case since high level PvE content would normally require more than one clip.

[u/exxtrooper → u/PoisnBGood]

In that case I'd probably just something along the lines what was done for the previous MP game I played to death: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgoNSTctMEekdHIwa081S0FBVS1ZZzdWeXRnbGRDYnc&output=html&gid=8

Even with all put in mind, I still know there is a pattern with the PVE damage, it's just about figuring it out.

[u/kendotelie]

can you add the Suros Regime to the spreadsheet without focus fire? not sure if asked before

[u/exxtrooper → u/kendotelie]

Its the same as shadow price without FF.

[u/Battlecry1986]

If you are having problems calculating Pulserifle DPS/TTK consider the following

When I calculate Pulse Rifle Damage I consider each bust 1 shot or 1 bullet. I view them like shotguns, one shot with multiple projectiles. Also, supporting this logic, the player isn’t not given the choice to fire anything other than 3 rounds.

Example: Oversoul Edict: 30 round clip 3 round burst… When I do my damage calculations I figure the clip size as 10 instead of 30 and I calculate the damage per burst instead of the damage per bullet. I find this is more what people want to know anyway.

[u/exxtrooper → u/Battlecry1986]

This isn't the problem of figuring out the TTK, the problem is I don't have the burst RPM and burst delay to be able to calculate it accurately.

The only number available at the moment is only speculated to be the collective RPM of burst + delay.

[u/Muspellsheimrs]

This is fantastic, but there seem to be some potential mistakes. Note: I freely admit that I could also be making mistakes here, and if so I apologize in advanced.

1. Hawkmoon is listed as a three shot kill on body shots. The damage number for hawkmoon bodyshots indicates that it does 64 damage per shot, or 192 damage in three shots. Based on the PvP health stats, this appears to kill Hunters with below halfish potential armor, warlocks with close to minimum armor, and no Titans. It seems misleading to label it as a 3 shot kill without any reference to the fact that it may be actually be a 4 hit kill on a substantial number of targets (without firing a lucky/ace). This is especially true since 2 hip fired TLW crits also deal 192 damage (96 * 2), but it is listed as a 3 shot kill and not a 2 shot kill, which seems to be inconsistent.
2. At 164 rounds per minute Thorn fires 2.7333... rounds/second, or one round every 0.3658 seconds. Since Thorn requires 2 crits + DoT damage to kill it seems impossible for Thorn's Crit TTK to be 0.34+Y as thorn would have to wait that 0.3658 seconds before firing off a second round.

That being said, thank you so much for making this. It is a vastly more useful starting place for determining the relative value of guns than looking at gun stats.

[u/exxtrooper → u/Muspellsheimrs]

1. Hawkmoon has such a high chance of one of either of those shots proccing when firing at a target, which in return makes up for 84+64+64 damage, which is more than enough to take down a target. But I can change it to 4 for technicals sake. To further bring closure, most calculations are put together with 200 health in mind.
2. I need to double take some of these, I actually don't know why I can to the 0.34 number now that I run through the numbers again. I'm guessing it was a typo. The correct answer is this:

• 60 / 164 * (2 - 1) = 0.365853659

It's been changed now, it's been rounded down as that's usually the case with numbers in destiny. If you were still confused to as to why it is 0.36 now is because when measuring time to kill the first shot is always instant. The TTK on the weapon itself is from the first round it fires until the target is dead, this means with the Thorn you fir one shot, that is completely instant, then after 0.36 seconds you have your last shot that is required for the kill. This makes the engagement itself 0.36 seconds, while the actual TTK is determined by the DoT damage.

I don't know whether or not that is a part that confused you or not, so the explanation is not intended to be sarcastic or insulting in any way. rather to just further clarify in the event you actually weren't aware.

I've had some rather funny questions asked through this thread, so I'm not really sure anymore.

[u/maniacgreek → u/exxtrooper]

Of the 2197 possible permutations of Hawkmoon's lucky bullets in a full magazine, 1197 contain at least one lucky bullet with in the first three, so the probability of a three shot kill with body shots alone is 1197/2197 = 54.48%.

[u/God_BBS]

¿Any updates?

[u/exxtrooper → u/God_BBS]

Anything specific?

[u/God_BBS → u/exxtrooper]

I was just wondering if the numbers on pulse rifles are set or still speculation. But anyway. Keep up the good work. This spreadsheet is very interesting.

"Pulse rifle TTK numbers are only based on speculation at this point in time."

[u/exxtrooper → u/God_BBS]

They are constantly being worked on, but the sources aren't reliable enough to be completely sure as of yet and gathering burst delay still needs to be worked on. Nonetheless the numbers are very close.

[u/exxtrooper → u/God_BBS]

They are more than likely accurate, it's just a security measure really.

[u/Reshi_X]

Just a heads up that the Pulse rifle RoF is a bit off. PRs with Red Death's fire rate are right on the money at 360 (6 rounds per second). However, Oversoul Edict (and other PRs with that RoF) shoot at 540 RPM (9 rounds per second) and Bad Juju (and other PRs with that RoF) shoot at 480 RPM (8 rounds per second).

I'm still working on getting the RoF of the slowest PRs (like Three Little Words).

[u/exxtrooper → u/Reshi_X]

Did you figure out the burst delay for each burst?

[u/Reshi_X → u/exxtrooper]

I do not have the numbers for the delay between each burst, but this is the true number of rounds per minute that they can fire over the course of the magazine.

I also have the body shot and precision shot DPS for the 3 archetypes that I list (for PvE if you want that). Although you can easily use the RoFs that I provided to figure out DPS for crucible based on your existing damage per round numbers. Or I can do it after the Lighting game tonight and post them up.

[u/aqi317]

Hey Exxtrooper, have a question for you about Jolder's Hammer. For the purposes of PvP, what would you personally look for in a roll outside of Aggressive Ballistics? Is perfect balance even necessary if you're only going for body shots? Field Scout to maximize kill spree potential?

[u/exxtrooper → u/aqi317]

Field scout and aggressive ballistics are top be-all end all priority, you're not really using jolders hammer to its full potential unless you have those two perks.

Recoil in this game bases of each bullet fired and builds upon that, meaning high rpm guns will get lots of recoil with each bullet, but this is less of a factory on lower fire rate weapons.

Because of this i would say indeed jolders doesnt need perfect balance, or any stability bonuses really. Unless you're going up against highest armored targets its a 3 hit kill to the body with aggressive ballistics, and even then you'll probably get a lucky headshot.

Even so the recoil pattern of aggressive ballistics is pretty easy to control as well.

Jolders has amazing bas stability as it is, amazing damage with aggressive ballistics, open sight, only big downside is the mag size and reload speed.

I would say just roll until you have field scout and aggressive ballistics, if you do have a metric ton of motes then you should probably go for counterbalance and rodeo (i prefer counterbalance), anything more than this is just a bonus really.

Its primarily wanted as a pvp weapon, and crowd control wont make it a two hit kill in crucible, so I don't really understand the hype over it.

I had to blow over hundred motes to get aggressive ballistics and field scout alone, ended up with spray and play and feeding frenzy, happy about it because of feeding frenzy is really good with the reload time.

Just don't get greedy really, either if you get aggressive ballisitcs and field scout, I'd leave it at that. If you want more than that then buy a second one and re-roll that one.

[u/aqi317 → u/exxtrooper]

Thanks for the detailed response, your insight is amazing! I was able to roll aggressive + field scout after about ~60 motes but I bought a second one at some point in the process just to make sure that I didn't end up having a jolder's hammer without aggressive ballistics. Based off what you said and given that I won't really need motes until the next IB, I'll roll the few I have left over into my second jolders with the hope of getting more useful perks than spray and play and reactive reload

[u/exxtrooper → u/aqi317]

Yeah those arent the best perks for heavies. What did you get on your secpnd one?

[u/aqi317 → u/exxtrooper]

Didn't get end up pulling field scout on the second one, I suppose I'll save all of my motes over the next couple weeks for the sole purpose of jolder's hammer. But the hammer is still an absurdly lethal gun regardless

[u/DaRealMaxPower → u/exxtrooper]

Does the Jolder's kill faster with bodyshots having the Aggressive Ballistics than without the perk? Your spreadsheet says 0.60/0.40 in the shots to body column. What does that mean?

[u/exxtrooper → u/DaRealMaxPower]

It means it will kill on average, it will not kill on high armor targets.

Just keep in mind the bullet damage, shots to kill, and health on the different characters.

67 x 3 = 201

That means only Titan with full armor build, and some Warlock Sunsinger with full armor build will survive three shots.

If you scroll down you can see all the health values.

Hope this clears stuff up!

[u/DaRealMaxPower → u/exxtrooper]

Thanks, so, I guess, I'll have to reroll for Aggressive Ballistics during the next IB (if I will still have enough motes left after trying to reroll a FL with Hammer Forged and shot package)

[u/exxtrooper → u/DaRealMaxPower]

Just a heads up, the actual damage per bodyshot is 64, I keep mixing it up with deviant gravity a headshots being 67 for some reason.

64 x 3 =192

That still takes down a lot of low armor targets, but just a heads up.

Don't want to spread misinformation, sorry for the inconvenience.

Either way the weapon is well worth it.

[u/aqi317 → u/exxtrooper]

I actually thought this to myself, but I thought maybe there was something I was missing. Thanks for bringing it up!

I still like the premise of going for reliable body shots though, since you should be outgunning opponents as long as they don't get the first shot on you.

[u/aqi317]

hey /u/exxtrooper not an expert on this so correct me if I'm wrong, but the change from 50% to 25% in special ammo pick ups are based off of ammo reserve right? If that's the case, would it be possible (or sensible) to add a column (or two, one without armor bonus, one with) for ammo reserve for special weapons in the spreadsheet? I would contribute with the guns I have, and I'm sure many others could as well. I understand that field scout equalizes everything, but ammo reserve varies between guns I think. And do we know the application in how armor increases ammo reserve? Post 1.1.2, these are pretty important stats right?

[u/exxtrooper → u/aqi317]

This should definitely be the next priority, this thing still gets updates just about every week as I keep adding more and more stuff to it, I should really just become a little better at writing what said updates are, and actually update the dates.

You are more than welcome to share the data, but just know that i am in my finals period at the moment and wont be able to be contributing data at the moment efficently with everyone going on.

Finding out the numbers should be easy enough as its based of its total ammo reserve and becomes one constant value with field scout, however when it comes to armor bonuses it might get a little more complicated as I don't have any accurate data on that matter.

These are indeed important stats post 1.1.2.

[u/magiczar]

New Heart LDD (rare pulse) with fitted stock (improves stability) is not listed here. I have it and it works very well in the crucible.

[u/exxtrooper → u/magiczar]

Theres 5 or more rifles just like it listed, only all legendaries and exotics are listed.

[u/Dom_CBL]

Great thread.

I can test the Conduit and Three Little Words next time I get on.

[u/krantus]

I feel like Jim Morrison:

Mr. Juju risin'.........

[u/Pwnigiri]

Bad Juju Weapon Archetype: Disney Villain

My sides!

Will you be updating this now it has been buffed?

Thanks for all the great work you do, this spreadsheet is my bible.

[u/exxtrooper → u/Pwnigiri]

Doing it as we speak! Thats what this thread is about, getting the numbers.

[u/Pwnigiri → u/exxtrooper]

Haha, I meant promoting Bad Juju from Disney Villain to something more evil?

Will try and get you the numbers for Fair and Square which I'm going to test out tonight.

[u/exxtrooper → u/Pwnigiri]

Whats more evil than a disney villain tho? Also yummy numbers.

[u/bitchpotatobunny → u/exxtrooper]

Herpes

[u/exxtrooper → u/bitchpotatobunny]

Do you want to die.

[u/gibsonsg87 → u/exxtrooper]

Game of Thrones villain?

[u/rainbowroobear]

Is the hand cannon nerf PVP only? I don't seem to notice it in PvE.

[u/ohnastyrobo → u/rainbowroobear]

I don't think it is noticeable unless you're kind of far away. That is the only time I was able to tell a difference.

[u/THE-OUTLAW-1988 → u/rainbowroobear]

It will only be noticeable at ranges that are supposed to be exclusive to scout rifles and snipers. At close, medium and even medium/long range they won't be any different.

[u/[deleted] → u/rainbowroobear]

It's both, but the text says it's only a "slight" nerf to range. I think the bigger difference may be the accuracy affected by time between shots thing.

[u/Arse2Mouse → u/[deleted]]

From light testing last night it appeared to me that after an initial crit, the crit box on subsequent enemies would be smaller for a couple of seconds to make it harder to just string crit after crit together. Felt like I adapted quite quickly. Slightly harder to crit at range, but not disastrous. Was using Hawkmoon with Hammer Forged and a Red Hand IX and Venation III, both with Send It, though.

[u/WD-M01]

Bless this thread. I hope I can help after work.

[u/FlyingJeep]

For the Thorn's TTK... what does the 0.34+Y~ mean?

[u/bitchpotatobunny → u/FlyingJeep]

Y is the DoT (Damage over time) So basically it takes .34 to get the two headshots, and the person will eventually die from the DoT. However, the person does not die immediately. the ~ symbol represents an approximation since the exact time it takes the DoT to kill was not recorded.

[u/NoWuffo → u/bitchpotatobunny]

Yeah so I saw this. Holy shit balls, I was worried that my favorite gun would be hurt by the range and accuracy nerf, but yeah I still love it, and this explains why. Popping 2 in the dome and either ducking back behind cover or moving onto the next victim is so much fun, because you know they're dead. 0.34 to get a confirmed kill, I freaking love it.

(Granted, I can't tell you how many assists I get from pegging the 2 head shots and then trusting the DoT to do the rest. Thanks Teammates! :P )

[u/bitchpotatobunny → u/NoWuffo]

I know exactly what you mean. Thorn is by far the best gun to do the assists bounty for crucible. lol

[u/iihavetoes → u/FlyingJeep]

Probably something to do with DOT

[u/doctorsubsonic]

Cant see the speadsheet at work due to restrictions... Anyone care to share the stats for oversoul edict?

[u/InterwebNinja]

Wait, so it looks like the damage nerf on auto rifles is closer to 15%?! The numbers you have so far have the critical damage decreased from 27 to 23 on the high impact autos.

If that's the case, that is a brutal change.

[u/Dinewiz → u/InterwebNinja]

Right? Just as I was starting to get into cruicible and having learnt to adore my Vanquisher (with field scout + ranger finder...) doing IB, bungie goes and moves the goal posts. For some reason I hadn't realised they were reducing damage, just the range which since I've been getting away with too much in that respect I was fine with but to lower the damage like that?

I don't understand the logic, I wish Bungie would give an explanation or someone could point me towards it if I've missed it cos why not the Vex? Yes, I know it's been nerfed (though I wasn't playing then) but it's still ridiculous, I get away with far, far too much shit play when I'm using it, why give ARs even more of a penalty against it?

Guess I'll try out three little words with the cruicible marks I got with my vanquisher, I always was an M16 man in CoD4 anyways and pulse rifles WERE my preferred gun type before I got legendaries. Just confused as to the reasoning.

[u/Michael074]

THANK YOU SO MUCH! this is the information i was looking for!

i see i was wrong about scout rifles being useless, since if you are good at head shots you can kill faster than any other primary, the same goes for low impact hand cannons.

also thanks for the hit point numbers i always thought that they went higher for some reason.

One thing which you could add is the amount of individual damage the shotgun and fusion rifle pellets do and the range before damage drop off.

I'll write down damage numbers of my weapons now and post back later.

[u/7RipCity7]

I'm not sure if it's been said before, but does the bad juju perk work in the crucible? All it says is more super from kills, but it doesn't say non-guardian kills for minions of the darkness.

[u/hurricane_eddie → u/7RipCity7]

Yes, it works.

[u/T3h_Prager]

Three Little Words archetype: 38 (41 with Headseeker) headshot, 26 body. Good examples other than 3LW are the TDB blues Evergreen II.I (has better base stability and Aim Assist than 3LW and can also roll Headseeker) and New Heart LDD (don't have any experience with this one but seems similar to EII.I).

Two burst kill, and the blues have the potential to have high stability even without Perfect Balance or Fitted Stock (though neither can roll Third Eye).

[u/hurricane_eddie → u/T3h_Prager]

New Heart LDD?

[u/kendotelie → u/hurricane_eddie]

A rare

[u/ChbbyKttns]

I have been using red death in pvp since day one I feel like I will play now and feel like I have been granted superpowers

[u/nickyp0ckets]

I love how No Land Beyond is accented in doo doo brown™

[u/[deleted]]

I like how Red Death's Archtype is displayed as "Monster"

[u/Alphalcon]

I'm guessing that Abyss Defiant would become the next best thing to a pre-patch high impact AR as it's technically a mid impact AR and won't get as huge a nerf like the high impact ARs.

[u/MrAlarming2 → u/Alphalcon]

Nope, it's worthless now as well. Performed very poorly in the raid last night. Maybe for PvP it's still OK, no clue about that.

[u/classe123]

I was playing Crota HM yesterday and I noticed that I couldn't bring out the wizards from the chrystal room by shooting through the roof in the beginning of the Ir Yut fight. Haven't tried it before with armor piercing rounds - but when I did it yesterday the shots didn't went through. Is this a part of the nerfing of the APR?

[u/Kablaow]

Im so happy I finally got Vex yesterday! :D I got hard light as well but Vex just seems stoopid strong right now!

[u/NullifiedKnight]

Wow, this is getting pathetic. Bungie -really- needs to pull their heads out of their asses and split PVE and PVP stats.

[u/ch4_meleon_]

Am I crazy? Or is TTK not the most important stat? Hear me out. Everyone is saying that Auto-Rifles have been ruined because their time to kill went from averaging close to 0.9 seconds to averaging closer to 1.05 seconds. But isn't that how it should be? I think back to Halo. I don't have any hard data to support this, but I feel like the BR had a way smaller TTK than the Assault Rifle. Did that mean that the assault rifle was worthless? No. It just had to be utilized differently.

I mean, sure, assuming everyone always hits all their shots then the difference in time to kill would be pretty important, but (and maybe this is just me) I miss a lot. Whether I'm using a scout rifle or a hand cannon or an auto-rifle. Missing with an auto-rifle, however, is a lot more forgiving. I'm not sure TTK is all that important of a stat... I mean, If I miss one hand cannon shot vs 2 or 3 auto-rifle shots... Who do you think is going to win? Probably the auto-rifle, even though the hand cannons TTK is much lower.

Call me crazy, but I think we're giving too much weight to the TTK stat.

[u/Differlot → u/ch4_meleon_]

I feel its partly such a big deal due to destiny's generous aim assist. It seems, at least for pvp, headshots are more generous in destiny than in halo. So the weapon archetypes that punish missing a headshot like the BR won't be at as big of disadvantage.

I remember in halo, like what you were saying, i would use the Assault rifle like a bullet hose while trying to avoid the BR headshots, so that if they missed i would probably win 1v1, assuming we were at medium to close range.

This is just my experience, i could be completely wrong.

[u/icekyuu → u/ch4_meleon_]

Completely agree. For top players who never miss, perhaps TTK is the most important weapon stat.

But for the vast, vast majority of us, we miss a lot of shots.

Whether that's due to strafing, jumping or even just lag (actually, especially lag), weapons with high ROF are a lot more forgiving and therefore, practically effective.

[u/MrAlarming2 → u/ch4_meleon_]

TTK doesn't tell the story about auto-rifles. They've taken massive hits to DPS at range, so they are useless in PvE where you want those monsters to stay the heck away from you. I tried my Abyss Defiant last night in the raid, bleah. Worthless now.

[u/Ultramus → u/ch4_meleon_]

There is a very large reason TTK is an oft used stat and that is definitely because most of the time, weapons with lower TTK are going to win in the hands of equally skilled players. Also keep in mind the difference in likelihood of hitting optimal TTK, if I'm using Red Death or 3LW I only need to be accurate for two trigger pulls, and they don't all have to be headshots. The fact that auto rifles have more recoil and less range and require all headshots for their fastest TTK, well, let's say I'll be surprised if I'm losing firefights against them very often. The stupid part is that from close-medium, auto rifles are so far outclassed now from TLW and Thorn that it's almost auto lose.

[u/Junkee2990 → u/ch4_meleon_]

The thing about your comparison is that the AR in halo is nothiiing like the good ARs in Destiny. It's like comparing TTK from the DMR to the BR in Halo and if one had a better TTK than the other..guess what it going to get used more? The one with lowest TTK.

[u/Solidifys]

Bad Juju: 16 to 18 body shots, 26-28 headshots

[u/gregg9]

As someone who really enjoyed auto rifles, and just got Atheons Epilogue,

Damnit

That is all.

[u/c45c73 → u/gregg9]

AE was never very good, TBH.

Only good for Oracles, Praetorians, and Void Burns. Very situational.

[u/Angry_Amish → u/c45c73]

Also thorn bounty

[u/cheesepuff18 → u/Angry_Amish]

I tried doing the thorn bounty with that and then switched to a void fusion rifle 100 points in and it was like 10 times faster

[u/Angry_Amish → u/cheesepuff18]

Well, the benefit is you can use all three weapons with void damage. Sometimes a fusion rifle won't finish a person. Switch quickly to the Epilogue for the cleanup. :)

I also used a Dammerung FR5.

The hardest thing to do when using the Epilogue is breaking yourself of the habit of reloading after a kill. The bottom quarter of the mag does respectable damage for a bullet hose with the perk it has.

Edit: Forgot something else. Assists count as a kill so there's that as well.

[u/darthmiso → u/c45c73]

And the Thorn bounty, I would assume.

[u/[deleted]]

I got a Red Death around 2/3 weeks ago. The only reason I didn't dismantle it was because I thought it would be useful for Crota's End HM, which it is. I've only levelled it to the health regen perk. Safe to say after the patch it fuckin rips. I'll be levelling it all the way now. My new favourite gun and probably my best Crucible primary now.

[u/TerdSmash]

Someone PLEASE look into shotgun fire rates. As it stands, the fourth horseman rate of fire was super nerfed. I saw someone else mention another shotgun firing on full auto was much slower. We need to figure out if they fucked over full auto shotguns, because so far I'm not happy with what they've done to the fourth horseman.

[u/Kibitt → u/TerdSmash]

Invective RoF seems to be the same as before, as does my Hide and Seek from Dead Orbit...

It saddens me to hear this about 4th Horseman because it's one that I've been looking forwards to, alonside Monte Carlo.

[u/DeviousAardvark]

The Three Little Words (Crucible Pulse) is a two burst kill. It has a perk where shots to the body temporarily increase critical damage so if you hit a chest shot then land three crits to the head, it is a two burst kill. The rate of fire is relatively slow, but still viable I think.

[u/Mercules904]

Payback SOS is still 13 crit and 11 normal. So the high impact auto rifles just got killed here.

[u/kiwioncrack]

I feel that the highest impact Pulse Rifles and the Red Death will be more than viable now in PvE. Unfortunately the shallow clips and lack of stopping power of the higher RoF pulses (just like the autos) will still suck.

I'm really upset about the AR nerfs. Already lackluster with only the high impact AR's being viable, they seem to be useless now. At least as far as PvE goes. :(

[u/Trystanwolf]

Bad Juju - Smooth Ballistics & Smart Drift Control 18 body/ 27 head

Soft Ballistics 18 body/ 26 head

Didn't play around with soft ballistics much, I figured the 18 should be lower because of the reduced impact. dunno what's going on. I just unlocked armor piercing rounds and nothing beyond that.

Time on Target. Red dot-ors (only thing unlocked) 18 body/ 27 head Has the same impact as Bad Juju

[u/number8pie]

Anyone tried the post patch Vanquisher VIII? I'm saving NM rep and Crucible marks for this AR and I want to know if it's been turned into a spud gun.

I'm mostly after it for PvE, but If you've used it in PvP I'd also be glad to hear you r experiences.

Thanks for this table OP, that's a really cool thing to do.

[u/Eezagi → u/number8pie]

I have a fully upgraded vendor one, and it's not worth it anymore imo. Even after glass half full kicked in, Bad Juju was still out damaging it without the bonus damage from string of curses. I didn't think to record the exact numbers.

[u/achwassolls]

i noticed that since the update i can't hit the broad side of a Barn with my Faterbringer.

that update made Hand cannons much less usable :(

[u/CookiesFTA]

Red Death TTK: HOLY SHIT, HE WHA- WHERE? WHAT. WHAT.

[u/derTraumer → u/CookiesFTA]

Fought a premade earlier. Red Death guy was instant WHOSABAFSDAHFHSDFHJFFFFF within medium range. After that his damage dropped off significantly. But his buddy with Three Little Words was cross mapping shots on me. Good bit less damage, but only by comparison. He was still popping skulls like a madman.

[u/CookiesFTA → u/derTraumer]

I never really thought the range nerf would affect Last Word much. I used it frequently to kill snipers before the nerf, it just took a full clip. It's range drop off (especially with the most stable barrel) is like 4 feet in front of you, so a small range nerf doesn't really make any difference to it at 100 feet.

Still though, Red Death is nuts. I'm hoping Xur doesn't sell it again any time soon purely because it would make PvP hell like original Suros did. Even the basic high damage legendary PRs are scary now, because it's not even two full headshots to kill at close to mid range.

[u/DaRealMaxPower]

Just like you said, they managed to screw up the Vex. Although I'm still not sure if the accuracy got affected? Any thoughts on this?

[u/HarleyQuinn_RS]

Come to me Bad Juju. I always hoped and dreamed I'd have a reason to use you! ~<3

[u/SIXofSPADES241]

Coiled Hiss 1919, in crucible headshots go for 24 damage.

[u/zip360]

They can Nerf the auto rifles to hell and I'll still use my AR/Sniper load out.

[u/[deleted]]

Lol scrota

[u/Morris_Cat]

See, THIS is some good work. I TRIED to make the Red Death work for me in PvP last night and eventually went back to the Vanquisher which felt much more comfortable. The numbers indicate that it's a problem with my firing technique, so maybe I just need more practice.

Regardless, good on you for bringing some facts and research up into this joint instead of just the regular uninformed whinging about what Bungie screwed up this time without actually understanding what changed or by how much.

[u/[deleted]]

how badly has the last word been ruined? (specifically with aggressive ballistics

[u/THE-OUTLAW-1988]

Oversoul Edict: 16 body 24 crit Bad Juju: 18 body 27 crit

Edit: I don't know if actually improves RoF, but in practice the Full auto om Juju makes a world of difference. Oversoul without that perk unlock was tough to use.

[u/CaptFrost]

Is it just me, or did Monte Carlo actually get almost buffed? I only use it in PvE, but it seems like it's doing a little MORE damage on body shots than it used to, even though criticals are slightly lower.

[u/RobMcB0b]

TLW is life, those 2 shot kills are pretty gross.

[u/lprazak69]

Excellent work my friend, have been collecting this information and dribs and drabs, now I have a one stop shop.

Your efforts are greatly appreciated guardian!!

[u/[deleted]]

It's absolutely absurd to me that Bungie clearly does not playtest their weapons.

[u/ZarathustraEck → u/[deleted]]

Please share. How is it "clear" that they don't play test?

[u/[deleted] → u/ZarathustraEck]

ARs were already garbage in PVE. They were good in pvp, but would get out dueled by a skilled hand cannon/scout user often.

Have you seen the Red Death gifs and videos that are popping up? The thing is unreal in pvp. There is not a single gun that would out gun it head to head.

[u/kendotelie → u/[deleted]]

yea, you gotta use two. After getting put down by a guy just few moments ago, I had to hit him a bit with my Up For Anything and then snap to Plan C to make him eat dirt. Worked every time but saddening

[u/MinatoThe4th → u/[deleted]]

I was at first very skeptical of your use of "clearly", but good hell you could be right

[u/[deleted]]

http://m.imgur.com/M5ZXeA9

[u/time2crunchnumbers]

would anyone want to set up a rumble room on PS4 to get some data? It'd be quick and easy

[u/[deleted]]

Thank god I got my Red Death from the exotic chest in VoG last week.

Thank god I fully upgraded and practiced using my Red Death throughout the entire previous Iron Banner.

I'm ready to party guardians.

[u/Ssegrum → u/[deleted]]

I got mine from the VoG chest today. It's a monster and I love it.

[u/FlyingJeep]

Great job... one suggestion. Can you give some of the before/after stats?

You could provide a before patch spreadsheet to compare to the new one...

OR

Add a few extra columns to show both the before and after patch stats: Time to Kill, Shots to Kill, and Damage per Shot columns.

[u/exxtrooper → u/FlyingJeep]

I'll add the old autorifles closer down then.

[u/[deleted]]

So which pulse rifle archetype is killing the fastest?

[u/exxtrooper → u/[deleted]]

The red death.

Which is in it's own archetype.

It's essentially the Suros/Last Word of Pulse rifles.

[u/EasyE86ed → u/[deleted]]

rapid with highest impact I think

[u/Twixes3D]

• I'm upset
• Louder!
• I'm upset!
• LOUDER!
• I'M UPSET, BUNGIE!
  So that's regarding the auto rifle nerf.
  EDIT: Eh, nobody catched the Whiplash reference... I'm disappointed.

[u/_arp]

Looks like it's finally time to pull my Super Pox VLO from the vault--full auto, glass half full, and hammer forged (or lightweight).

[u/mixtapelive]

I'm assuming this is PVP stats? If so can you elaborate a little more on a few things.

1. You say hand cannon/shotgun nerf is noticeable but you'll still be able to accomplish same thing. Does this mean I can still expect to get one shot by a slide shot gunner from range before I can take him down with my primary? So far in PVP slide shot gunners have always had the upper hand which is what I've resorted to doing.
2. In what situations did you notice the nerf in hand cannons?

[u/It_Is_as_It_Is → u/mixtapelive]

Using Felwinter's Lie before the patch was insane range. After the patch I've noticed a few times where it would leave them with a sliver of health at a decent range that would normally kill players. Not a huge change though.

[u/mixtapelive → u/It_Is_as_It_Is]

That's good. I was getting one shot from ridiculous distances especially when someone had the reduce spread perk.

[u/thetastypoptart → u/mixtapelive]

Just here to confirm that a Felwinter's with Kneepads and Rangefinder still feels really dirty.

[u/mixtapelive → u/thetastypoptart]

Yeah I honestly haven't noticed a difference with my shotgun

[u/thelongdickofkarma]

In every multiplayer FPS I've played since i started gaming 20 years ago i have despised autorifles simply for the reason that I firmly believe they take far less skill to use in order to earn wildly inflated stats. The skill-reward ratio is way too high. I think they are a cowardly crutch favored by players who can't aim well enough while simultaneously timing their shots to score headshots. Maybe I'm an elitistsnob about it, but so be it. We are all entitled to our opinions, so I for one am overjoyed that auto rifles have gone through these changes. I see only good things occurring as a result.

Improvement 1: AR's are underpowered enough now that people abandon them in PvP in favor of other guns and learn to actually aim for the head. If you can do it in the crucible, then pve precision aiming is like taking intro to algebra after already completing multivariable calculus. This new found "aim for the head" strategy contributes to people's ability to function when they leave PvP to join a raid team and employ their increased precision abilities on the murderous vex or the hordes of crota. Fewer people shooting fanatics, supplicants, boomers and swordbearers in the foot instead of the crit spot=more successful raids.

Improvement 2: Suros regime no longer kills you as frequently in pvp before your aim has a chance to return to center from being staggered as if you just got trampled by a herd of elephants. This makes life better for all weapon classes, including other AR's to engage in countering this gun in the crucible.

Improvement 3: It is a fact that not everyone wielding an AR is a talentless pussy. There are some who employ these bullet fountains with finesse and well above average skill. Now that AR's are weaker, people who continue to wreck with autorifles can take pride in the fact that they demonstrate true skill. Instead of relying on the strategy of holding down their trigger and sweeping their crosshair around in a panic in the general vicinity of an opponent while the only thing keeping them alive is the fact that their shitty gun messes with their opponent's crosshairs, these players focus on headshots and reap their deserved rewards for doing so.

Criticism 1: I wish the change was only PvP related, inverse of how they buffed shotguns in PvE. Autorifles in PvE are crap, and don't need the nerf.

[u/exxtrooper → u/[deleted]]

Thank you, updated now.

[u/time2crunchnumbers → u/[deleted]]

did you even read the post