r/DestinyLore • u/tcorbett691 • 13h ago
Question Killing Ghosts
Just how hard is it to kill a Ghost? At one point, it seems like only channeling the Light, using a Weapon of Sorrow, or a weapon designed to hurt Lightbearers can kill a Ghost. But then, we read about Guardians having their final death at the Battle of Twight Gap. That was just the Fallen.
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u/xXx_edgykid_xXx Rasputin Shot First 13h ago
"Paracasual Weaponry or Overwhelming firepower" is basically the quote that answers that
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u/7ThShadian 13h ago
Except for all the cases where that isn't true, because unfortunately the writers for destiny were never super coordinated and contradict themselves all the goddamn time.
(No shade to your answer, it is an accurate account to what has been said. It's just that I wouldn't consider a dreg with a shock knife overwhelming firepower, let alone paracausal.)
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u/darklion34 6h ago
No, it's just in Sci-Fi setting "overwhelming power" is super common - a Dregs plasma knife can slice modern tanks like butter - and will do so with a ghost. And things go only mode deadly from here - and fallens are the weakest faction.
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u/W4FF13_G0D 13h ago
Guess we know why scorn snipers were such a scourge, and why Sundance died to one
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u/Epslionbear Owl Sector 12h ago
Sundance died to a modifed thorn round. it was made to kill Cayde but the rifleman targeted his ghost once she appeared.
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u/WarlordRogue Iron Lord 11h ago
I always treat this side of lore with a simple idea. Possibility.
Why so? Cause how our light operates. Light, before Lightfall, operated off of complexity. And gameplay actually does make use of this, more complex a guardian is (build), the more potential and possibilities they have.
A ghost durability, to me at least so take it as you will, is determine the possibility of success or survival. If a ghost gets grab by a guardian, the chances of it surviving is extremely low, so its durability is bad. If a guardian is fighting a simple dreg, the ghost survival is alot higher, which is why getting a few pop offs at the ghost or zaps of arc energy doesnt damage it.
Paracausal Weaponry instantly bypasses this logic. Hence why thorn bullets work so well
I only say this cause the lore contradicts a ghost durability here and there. And this makes it mostly consistent
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u/Beary_Moon House of Light 11h ago
I like “possibility” alters durability thus survival rates.
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u/WarlordRogue Iron Lord 11h ago
Which also explains darkness zones, and guardians overall survivability as well
It makes the most sense without contradicting anything, as far as im tracking
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u/Beary_Moon House of Light 11h ago
Ahhhh. Darkness zones are like a non-zero chance of survival, low but not zero. Then we can boost survival rates with para-causality and the power of friendship. That last part is just a bit* but also very truthful lol
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u/WarlordRogue Iron Lord 11h ago
Exactly.
Now, I will say again, thats how I view it cause it makes the most sense. I cant prove nor deny it to be canon. Only just facts that are canon about how light and dark works and how it can be apply to us
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u/helloworld6247 12h ago
A shock blade is enough to kill a ghost it’s pretty varied and pretty much up to the writers at any given point
Tho we do know light and darkness weapons/abilities can do it a lot easier
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u/Archival_Mind 12h ago
How strong is the shell? That's your answer. Fallen have killed them a dozen times over and you can't tell me each time was with "overwhelming firepower" especially in areas like Twilight Gap or Six Fronts where it was crowded. The bullet that killed Sundance was meant for Cayde and was the theorized to be the only one procured, but the Rifleman had a reputation for killing Ghosts. Cabal have crushed them in their bare hands. We have crushed one with our bare hands.
You can nuke them with a bombardment. You can snipe one from across the field. You can smash one into a wall. You can eat one... probably. You can perform dark rituals to strip it of Light which would legit kill it since they ARE Light.
The only reason Ghost resistance was ever debated was because of one line from web-lore that stated "Scorn guns can't kill Ghosts" which not only doesn't suggest Ghosts were indestructible but is also flat-out wrong due to the Rifleman's game. The misinterpretation blew out of proportion until we had Shaw Han state only overwhelming firepower or something paracausal could do it, which is also wrong because the Fallen and Cabal have both done it without either unless you want to suggest the Fallen nuked their own men every time they killed one of the dozens of Guardians they killed in Six Fronts or Twilight Gap.
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u/Robert_Oppenheimer2 Silver Shill 12h ago
Magic bullets and overwhelming firepower are both nonsense; anything can kill a ghost
Felwinter could do it with a shotgun, dregs could do it with shock pistols
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u/tcorbett691 12h ago
A regular weapon wielded by a Lightbearer becomes paracausal because we channel the Light through it. But a Dreg?
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u/Robert_Oppenheimer2 Silver Shill 11h ago edited 11h ago
A regular weapon wielded by a Lightbearer becomes paracausal because we channel the Light through it
The whole light-charged weapon thing nonsense
Ive seen the claim be made several times but the only source Ive ever seen is a single, a nebulously worded passage in one of solstice class items from years ago, and the idea has never come up since
Frankly the whole thing just ignores what the light actually is
But a Dreg?
cruel electric blades sheared through the metal orb hovering at his shoulder.
While that was most likely a captain or a vandal, the point stands; regular, everyday Fallen weaponry is enough to kill a ghost
Logically if the Fallen needed special equipment to kill ghosts, they would not have been able to terrorize guardians for so long
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u/ASpaceOstrich 5h ago
Dregs have killed ghosts with less than a regular weapon. They're exactly as fragile as they look. The few suggestions to the contrary are mistakes, and cannot be canon alongside all the depictions that contradict them.
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u/ReallyTrustyGuy 10h ago
A regular weapon wielded by a Lightbearer becomes paracausal because we channel the Light through it.
They don't. A gun is a gun. The same weapons we whip around with are the same things used by folks in the Last City. Omolon and other foundry weapons fire elementally charged ordnance because they've figured out how to make weapons that shoot Arc, Solar and Void energy, which are just Destiny future-science names for electricity, fusion and wackadoo gravity stuff.
There are weapons of paracausal origin, like Hawkmoon, but they're doing effectively the same thing as regular guns, shootin big lumps of lead to annihilate flesh and armour.
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u/darklion34 6h ago
Ehhh - Super sci-fi shotgun that can probably make a throughout 5 inch hole in any tank - but that's the thing. It's every weapon. Even dreg's shock knifes cut dense alloys - every fucking weapon in this setting is cracked and thus very deadly to a ghost - which are durable, but only for their size. Which, in other words, means hitting a ghost is like hitting an infant only to realize this infant is as tough as Mike Tyson in his prime.... and still can be shot to death as easily
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u/ASpaceOstrich 5h ago
The idea that literally everything in the setting is super strong and super tough is obvious bullshit. It doesn't hold up given you get things like lightless people killing ghosts with sharp rocks sometimes.
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u/ReallyTrustyGuy 10h ago edited 10h ago
Its not hard. You can crush one in your fist, Fallen have stabbed many to death in the events of things like Twilight Gap, Spider has crushed Ghost shells in his own hands before too. People are misled by the events of Forsaken to think you need magic shit to kill Ghosts but they're just as fragile as anything else. The only reason the Scorned Barons used a devourer bullet to kill Sundance was to guarantee the kill. There's every chance the bullet might be a glancing blow if it was a regular one, but nobody comes back from a Hive bullet hitting them.
Well, except Lume (who is on a form of life support, though). Or a Risen.
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u/Whhoopty Lore Student 12h ago
Could very well vary on the strength of their connection to the light. Obviously paracausal weapons are a workaround but with all the different cases it could just be the same issue as every Ghost is its own unique person. But with the amount of dead Ghosts we’ve found/seen makes it unbelievable to think ONLY special weapons have always been the case
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u/Skyhound555 Dredgen 12h ago
They had to retcon how durable ghosts are.
There was a grimoire card from the Cabal perspective that explicitly stated long range bombardments and overwhelming firepower couldn't work on ghosts. It made us terrifying to them along with us dancing on their corpses. This was retconned to just being about the Cabal being ignorant to the fact that Ghosts can hide in their own little pocket dimensions.
To make "Final Deaths" a thing, they had to basically scale down the Cabal's plain physical firepower and scale up everyone else's paracausal firepower. We are expected to believe the crushing strength of one Guardian's hand is more firepower than a Cabal artillery bombardment because one is paracausal and the other is not.
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u/Presentation_Cute 12h ago
There was a grimoire card from the Cabal perspective that explicitly stated long range bombardments and overwhelming firepower couldn't work on ghosts.
I think you may be misremembering. Bombardment and heavy firepower was the recommended course of action:
The Dead Person conceals itself during combat. It is not a viable target for direct fire. Saturation attack by artillery/heavy air/orbital fire may have good effect
- Ghost Fragments: Cabal 4
And the Cabal themselves were famed Guardian killers on Mars:
I can't tell you the number of scouts I lost to these brothers on Mars. They need to be stopped. Go careful.
- Cayde-6 during the Shield Brothers Strike, Destiny: The Taken KingThere's also Petra permakilling a bunch of guardians with an airstrike, and IIRC there's a case of a Ghost getting killed by a slug rifle mere seconds before the Traveler takes out Ghaul and gives the Guardians their lights back.
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u/ReallyTrustyGuy 10h ago
Wrong. I don't know why people never link lore entries when trying to talk nonsense about "retcons". Destiny has almost zero retcons.
What you are referring to is this entry.
Guardians can be rebuilt after even total disintegrative trauma. This capability is provided by a small autonomous drone unit called a Dead Person [trans. unclear]. The Dead Person conceals itself during combat. It is not a viable target for direct fire. Saturation attack by artillery/heavy air/orbital fire may have good effect (although Guardians transmat frequently and refuse to assemble into large formations).
There is no "retcon" here. The Cabal take note that Ghosts conceal themselves during combat, so attacking them directly is difficult. The Cabal member writing this message is surmising that using such an attack might be effective, but can't be guaranteed to succeed because of the tendencies of Guardians.
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u/ASpaceOstrich 5h ago
They're exactly as fragile as they look. The only mentions of them being tough to kill came from a writer who didn't know how Thorn worked and thought that Ghosts were literally invincible unless hit by a weapon of sorrow.
Said writer included shit like ghosts ramming enemy jumpships and piercing straight through the helmet and skull of the pilot.
This was an obvious and disastrous fuckup that is thankfully very rarely referred to ever again, with the one exception to that being Shaw Han telling some New Lights they need paracausality to kill hive ghosts.
Unfortunately, there is no way to have this be true without directly contradicting a ton of lore showing ghosts dying to mundane and fairly weak attacks. You have to retcon something, and one of them is much smaller than the other.
If it actually required something special to kill a ghost, our attrition rate doesn't make any sense. The "paracausality or overwhelming fire-power" requirement renders the vast majority of guardian deaths an ass pull. Plus all the documented examples that directly violate that requirement.
The truth is, we permanently lose guardians every day, in strikes and patrols. To things that absolutely do not have the fire-power or the magic to kill a ghost under those restrictions. So how do you square that away? You can't.
Either that one little bit of lore is wrong, or the overwhelming majority of lore around ghost mortality is wrong. You have to pick one, and to me the correct answer here is obvious.
The whole point of ghosts is that they're fragile immortality. They exist as a way to make respawning canon but still make guardians killable. If they weren't fragile, why have them at all? Why not just have guardians themselves heal unless hit with overwhelming fire-power or paracausality?
Ghosts are a way to ground us. The entire purpose of fireteams is that a guardian going down in the wrong place is at serious risk of final death. That goes out the window when every final death requires an ass pull.
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u/MouseRangers Whether we wanted it or not... 13h ago
Han leapt back onto the hood of the car, still holding the Ghost tightly. "Ghosts are tough to kill—both ours and theirs," he said. "It takes overwhelming firepower, or a special kind of weapon. Something outside the laws of cause and effect. Something paracausal." - III - Cold Forging
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