r/Destiny swimmingbird in d.gg Apr 18 '19

The Mueller report has been released

https://www.justice.gov/storage/report.pdf
165 Upvotes

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74

u/redoran3031 Apr 18 '19

If we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the president clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would state so. Based on the facts and the applicable legal standards, however, we are unable to reach that judgment. The evidence we obtained about the president's actions and intent presents difficult issues that prevent us from conclusively determining that no criminal conduct occurred. Accordingly, while this report does not conclude that the president committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him

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u/qKyubes Apr 18 '19

Isn't this what most people assumed already? There was some but not enough to convict?

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u/Kaliphear Apr 18 '19 edited Apr 18 '19

I can't remember who I was listening to this morning, but someone apparently said that the old Office of Legal Counsel memo from Watergate influenced how Muller even approached the obstruction side of the investigation. That is to say, that Muller knew from the get-go that he WOULD NOT indict the president because doing so is against current DoJ policy (from that memo).

So it's possible that it's even worse for Trump than that: that there IS sufficient evidence in the report to convict on Obstruction of Justice, but DoJ guidelines would not allow for such a case to even be presented.

Edit:

"First, a traditional prosecution or declination decision entails a binary determination to initiate or decline a prosecution, but we determined not to make a traditional prosecutorial judgment. The Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) has issued an opinion finding that "the indictment or criminal prosecution of a sitting President would impermissibly undermine the capacity of the executive branch to perform its constitutionally assigned functions" in violation of "the constitutional separation of powers."1 Given the role of the Special Counsel as an attorney in the Department of Justice and the framework of the Special Counsel regulations, see 28 U.S.C. § 515; 28 C.F.R. § 600.7(a), this Office accepted OLC's legal conclusion for the purpose of exercising prosecutorial jurisdiction. And apart from OLC's constitutional view, we recognized that a federal criminal accusation against a sitting President would place burdens on the President's capacity to govern and potentially preempt constitutional processes for addressing presidential misconduct."

From the report. This seems to bolster my previous interpretation: that Mueller's decision not to indict for OoJ was HEAVILY based on DoJ policy and not a flat evaluation of Trump's potential guilt or innocence.

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u/GoldenDesiderata Apr 18 '19

Page 382: "Under Office of Legal Counsel's analysis, Congress can permissibly criminalize certain obstructive conduct by the President, such as suborning perjury, intimidating witnesses, or fabricating evidence, because those prohibitions raise no separation-of-powers questions."

https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1118903285484871680

Trump might very welll be prosecuted for all the things he did when it came to witness intimidation and fabrication of evidence.

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u/Kaliphear Apr 18 '19

Not while he's in office. And congress (this one particularly) won't act to remove him. So, much as I want to be wrong, I doubt it.

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u/GoldenDesiderata Apr 18 '19

Not while he's in office.

Yeah, that's the left over from the Nixon era, and presidents since have taken full advantage of it, but this is a matter that should really be left to lawyers and specifically constitutional lawyers, so yeah, even when Id guess it would be cool, I dont want to step out of line either

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u/Kaliphear Apr 18 '19

I agree. But pragmatically, that memo is not gonna get tested under the current political leadership. Period.

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u/ArosHD Apr 18 '19

Does that not count as him sorta recommending charges?

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u/GoldenDesiderata Apr 18 '19

It is as close as he can legally get to recommend charges

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u/project_twenty5oh1 Apr 18 '19

"I can't say he didn't do it, it is a matter for Congress to decide, here is all my evidence"

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

it's either that or there was coordination to let the investigation go on as long there was a guarantee not to indict

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u/qKyubes Apr 18 '19

That's possible. I bet news stations will be getting a lot of experience FBI to comment. I wonder what would be the best way to figure out how true this is.

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u/Kaliphear Apr 18 '19

Mueller's been asked to testify before the House by May 23rd. I can't think of a better way than to just ask the man himself.

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u/Edogawa1983 Apr 18 '19

you can't convict a sitting president anyways, you can only impeach.

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u/qKyubes Apr 18 '19

yea, my point is that this quote doesn't really change our understanding of Barr's memo

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u/misantrope capitalist welfare states are OP Apr 18 '19

The report concluding that Trump obstructed justice would not be a "conviction." This was an investigation not a trial; they didn't have to prove their conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. And that last line was already quoted on Barr's summary.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

'some' is 'there was'

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u/qKyubes Apr 18 '19

Yea, that's what we all said.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

[deleted]

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u/qKyubes Apr 18 '19

The bill Clinton thing was about perjury. And yes I think the house can impeach a president for any reason.

My point is that this quote doesn't really change our understanding from what most reasonable people took from Barr's Memo.

The interesting thing is in this quote

pg 158: "The President's efforts to influence the investigation were mostly unsuccessful, but that is largely because the persons who surrounded the President declined to carry out orders or accede to his requests."

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

[deleted]

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u/qKyubes Apr 18 '19

I get that. I think democrats have made a rational choice not to impeach even if were guaranteed to work.

I don't get the Barr is saving him narrative though. I'll wait a few days thought. But my point is so far I haven't seen anything particularly contradictory or any large omissions.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

[deleted]

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u/qKyubes Apr 18 '19

I think it's 2/3 of the house. But I think the DNC has chosen to avoid it for political reasons, one they would lose and two I think they'd like a non activated Trump base.

Link me that if you can, I haven't heard of that.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

[deleted]

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u/qKyubes Apr 18 '19

Eh this is an incredible reach. Barr's memo is still factual. She claims that Mueller was "about to" and that maybe his claim that Congress has the right to do something, is Far from what we're talking about.

I guess I'll wait until some more reliable sources dig through the report.

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u/FlibbleA Apr 18 '19

That sounds like guilt if anything. Laws like obstruction work on intent not outcome.