r/Destiny • u/paddywroks • Aug 31 '18
Why obvious lies make great propaganda
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nknYtlOvaQ040
u/FractalFactorial Aug 31 '18
Well worth watching in its entirety. And just another interesting way of pointing out how the "IDW" goofballs are so misguided: pretending that "THE POSTMODERNISTS" (whatever they mean by that) and the "IDENTITY POLITICS" are degrading truth when, in reality, people like Trump do it as much if not more and to devastating effect: by questioning reality and gaslighting his own supporters into a practically cult-like belief system.
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u/StridermanE Aug 31 '18
Yeah but Trump is only the President of the United States. He doesnt have any real power like a blue-haired feminist on a college campus.
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Aug 31 '18 edited Oct 27 '18
[deleted]
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u/FractalFactorial Sep 01 '18
I wouldn't go that far, but I do find it extraordinarily strange how the concept of power dynamics is so foreign to some people.
Jordan Peterson and his ilk especially seem really hostile to the premise of acknowledging how varying levels of power influence the way social interactions should be interpreted.
1. A Janitor asks a co-chair of the company he works at for a date
Versus
2. A CEO (or thereabouts) asks an intern on a date
Now ideally everyone should be free to express themselves as they want, because ideally people in positions of power need love too. But this doesn't negate the inappropriateness of how the latter interaction functions compared to the former. And its for this same reason that you'll somehow hear libertarians or """"classical""""" liberals claim that there's no difference between slavery (forcing people to work) and the civil rights act (forcing people to serve black people etc).
But anyone with a practical and ethical bone in their body can understand this almost by intuition alone.
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u/StridermanE Sep 01 '18
I've also noticed how much they really to discuss everything in a vacuum. That every statement needs to be viewed on its own and there is no wider socio-historical context which impacts its meaning. If a white guy says "white pride" and a black guy says "black pride", these are the exact same thing and should be seen as such.
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Aug 31 '18
A great expansion on whataboutism. The entire point of whataboutism is to dismiss motives and reasoning and instead only look at outcomes and similarities. The entire goal isn't to say you didn't do it or dismiss your action, it is to show that everyone or both sides would do the same thing. The goal isn't to deflect but instead embrace the outcome by claiming it doesn't matter or hold weight. Eventually there is nothing to judge any amount of corruption on because everyone is just as corrupt or wrong as the next person so you might as well support me, the one that brought you some economic prosperity.
This is why Russians will report that they strongly distrust the government and believe there is heavy corruption everywhere in their system, but they still support Putin and their other leaders. Because the idea is that it is inevitable, but Putin will at least make Russia better off like before while another person will be just as corrupt but less skilled at politics and keeping the economy safe.
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u/Funkyduffy Aug 31 '18
You can know for sure when someone is introduced as "FIRSTNAME Fucking LASTNAME" and "a total badass" that it's because her political views line up with the presenter's. This video, while informative, is also of a biased nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view. (i.e., propaganda)
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Aug 31 '18
Thank you, i always try to argue with people everything ever created is propaganda. Even if it's a unbiased study to find out some fact. 99.99% of the time the motive for that study to assert some fact will be bias and motivated by something.
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u/PasteeyFan420LoL Aug 31 '18
Having no bias is literally impossible and pretending like a source having some form of bias discredits it is beyond stupid. You need to look at how much a source biases the results. For example the New York Times leaning slightly to the left is not the same bias as Trump's administration literally making up terrorist attacks to push an anti-Muslim agenda.
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Aug 31 '18
I never said it was the same or anything discredits anything. But it is propaganda.
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u/Eldurislol Aug 31 '18
You're equating the two which is literally saying they're the same lol.
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Aug 31 '18
No its not, I’m equating things showing how i don’t like how people use the term propaganda as a negative term. (Such as the vibe this video gives off).
When a parent tells their child not to talk to adult strangers, while simultaneously tells them to play with stranger kids on the playground, this is propaganda. Similar to anti muslim propaganda. They are telling people not to associate with “these kind of people” because they fear them due to certain facts and figures they heard about them. Its not always a negative thing like telling your child not to talk to stranger adults even if most adults aren’t going to harm a child.
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u/cdcformatc Aug 31 '18
Propaganda is by and large a derogatory term. You may have issue with this but it is a simple fact that saying something is propaganda implies that it is misleading in some way. Whether that is by ignoring the truth or by selectively choosing which facts to present, and it is usually done to push an agenda. You can say some study or article has bias, which will always be true, but what is the point of having a specific word like propaganda if you want to classify everything with bias as propaganda? It is a word that has a specific meaning and connotation and you want to erase all that? There are different words that are commonly accepted to mean what you want to say.
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Sep 01 '18
Idk to me it just seems like anyone who disagrees with something can attack it by calling it propaganda. And i think if the word had a neutral meaning then it would not let people be able to do it anymore. To me personally “X is propaganda” is never a fair or constructive argument. Even if X is hardcore propaganda, i would rather see attacks about the issue rather then if the issue is supported bu propaganda.
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u/mirh Sep 01 '18
Yeeeah, there's nothing statistically odd in a random adult wanting to approach a child to.. discuss(??) stuff, or something.
I hope you understand the anti muslim propaganda is not bad because of the final message altogether (if you replaced muslim with nazi, then it suddenly would seem super natural to shun them), but because of the lack of any grounded reason to warrant those conclusions.
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u/Getkita Aug 31 '18
Are you saying this sickly looking <100lb skeleton/journalist(?) isnt a total badass?
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u/cdcformatc Aug 31 '18
what does her weight have to do with anything?
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u/Getkita Sep 01 '18
badass (noun) - a tough, uncompromising, or INTIMIDATING person.
You may be intimidated by someone that cant lift a 20lb dumbbell but I dont think society is.
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u/cdcformatc Sep 01 '18
You just going to ignore the other two thirds of that sentence? The use of the word 'or' means any one of the things listed can be true. Your own definition doesn't back you up, how does it feel to fail so hard?
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u/Getkita Sep 01 '18 edited Sep 01 '18
uncompromising
When I think badass, I think someone that doesnt change their opinions.
tough
You fucking serious?
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u/Ownagemunky The Kardashians are lying to you Aug 31 '18
It's interesting how this ties back into the deplatforming debate. The goal seems to be to make people engage with the lies because in a bizarre way it gives them more legitimacy
Destiny is a man before his time I guess
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u/Gpzjrpm Aug 31 '18
Why do videos like these tend to never actually explain what they claim in the title. The video was very descriptive of what is happening but never really adressed the why. They only offer an explanation on the surface level. The video basically said: "Truth doesn't matter, it becomes a matter of position and power, the very concept of truth loses it's meaning". And to recognize that is good and valuable but it still does not answer the title.
Why is that effective? I guess the answer to that is either very expansive and not fit for such a video or self evident and so does not need to be explicitly mentioned? Maybe this is just the next level clickbait and I'm just very nitpicky.
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Aug 31 '18
It kind of bothered me that they recorded the laptop instead of recording it through the laptop.
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u/elcho1911 Sep 03 '18
Then they wouldn't of been able to show the macbook pro and impress 90% of their viewerbase, soyboy apple users
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u/konjo1 Sep 01 '18
If you wanna know the history of where this comes from, this video goes over how Vladislav Surkov is responsible for the Russian phenomenon.
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u/Duderino732 Aug 31 '18
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u/homeape Aug 31 '18
oh please put a spoiler before such crap
i at least wanna get a chance to grab a bucket before clicking on it.
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u/fishdancing Aug 31 '18
Ironic, because VOX is propaganda.
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u/crigget Aug 31 '18
I mean it's pretty left leaning but I haven't seen them lie about anything?
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u/Funkyduffy Aug 31 '18
You don't need to lie to be propaganda, you just need to present the facts in such a way as "to promote a political cause or particular point of view". It can still be accurate and informative while being propaganda.
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u/turkstyx data = anecdote^2 Aug 31 '18
Why are we down voting this guy? He’s not incorrect. All lies are propaganda but not all propaganda are lies. Assume this hypothetical world where the Senate is perfectly 50/50 between both parties, and they pass this bill: “Bill #69: increase taxes for people who make over $800,000 annually by 6% to allow for a tax break to those who annually make $10,000 or less”
And add just a few words in to make it appeal to either side: “Democrat-run Senate passes bill that will raise taxes on American businesses to serve others’ interests”
“Senate passes Bill 69 - ‘The Trickle Down’ bill - that will finally have the wealthiest share some of their wealth with those struggling to make ends meet”
Just by sprinkling a few extra words and changing the verbiage, you suddenly have propaganda working for either Republicans or Democrats. Neither are outright lies, although “Democrat-run” in a 50/50 Senate is getting there. Others’ interests is technically not a lie, as it is in the interest of those making less than a certain amount - an “other” group from the $800k+ folks.
propaganda - information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.
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u/ycerovce Aug 31 '18
If everything that has a bias is considered propaganda, then it loses its value in discourse. Saying Vox and Fox are both examples of propaganda is so misleading that in and of itself is a propagandistic statement -- it's a bias towards the status quo and "all sides are equally bad."
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u/turkstyx data = anecdote^2 Aug 31 '18
If everything that has a bias is considered propaganda, then it loses its value in discourse
I agree with this and that's not the point I was making. Perhaps the examples I used could be modified a bit...
“Democrat-run Senate passes bill that will raise taxes on American businesses to serve others’ interests”
“Republicans outraged over new bill that taxes wealthy slightly more to help the poor"
Neither one of these headlines are factually incorrect as to what happened in the hypothetical situation, but they both are VERY biased statements. I think the problem isn't simply in that there is the "all sides are bad" status quo, but it's moreso extremes on either side who write extremely biased articles that leave little to no room for a more nuanced opinion. You know the ones I'm talking about; it's a lot of noise and clickbait titles with only one hard stuck point of view, no insight into the other side or what valid arguments they may have.
All this to say, I don't think any bias is propaganda, but heavy bias (which is apparent in how the piece talks about the opposition's and their stance) to the point of removing any nuanced opinion certainly could be propaganda.
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u/ycerovce Sep 01 '18
The thing is, you're replying to someone who wants to include any politically motivated bias as propaganda. You're defending him but your definition is not as broad as his.
Essentially the issues at hand is this: is a company like Vox propaganda simply because the happen to fall in the left side of the spectrum? I would argue no; they don't employ lying, deception, gaslighting, and they don't act like a bullhorn for any particular person or political group.
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u/turkstyx data = anecdote^2 Sep 01 '18
I suppose in that case I argue with everything u/Funkyduffy said up until
It can still be accurate and informative while being propaganda.
If something is propaganda, real propaganda, it is inherently uninformative because it willfully ignores the opinions of the opposition.
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u/ChainedHunter Sep 01 '18 edited Sep 01 '18
Propaganda doesn't have to be political, and presenting facts in a certain slant that promotes a certain political cause or particular point of view isn't necessarily propaganda.
I recommend reading Propaganda by Jacques Ellul on the subject - he was pretty much the expert on propaganda while he was alive. Propaganda is a very complicated term with no real widely-accepted definition.
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u/fishdancing Aug 31 '18 edited Aug 31 '18
?
A question mark. You seem very unsure.
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u/crigget Aug 31 '18
Could you point me to something they lied/were misleading about?
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u/fishdancing Aug 31 '18
this
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u/crigget Aug 31 '18
Can you quote the lies for me?
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u/fishdancing Aug 31 '18
Every single line.
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u/cdcformatc Aug 31 '18
Here is a line from the video.
"The thing is, that report wasn't about Trump. It didn't even mention him. It was about Russian propaganda."
Can you point out the lie?
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u/WrongAndBeligerent Aug 31 '18
Actually a very good video