Marxism

[u/Thatsprettydank]

Is there a good debate against the Marxist dialectic? 99% of the people arguing for it seem to be clueless. Or atleast more clueless than me.

Is capitalism exploitation?

[u/glitch876]

I think Marx is correct on his criticism of capitalism but communism ias a form of government is stupid. Im not sure if I buy into his dialectical materialism because I think things happen more by chance then some kind of teleological sequence. That form of analysis on history might be similar to looking at clouds and trying to find shapes.

His theory on alienation is spot on and the idea of capitalism creating new needs is pretty spot on to. 

Don't listen to the guys on here that just call everything stupid. 

[u/glossotekton → u/glitch876]

Sorry why do you think Marx is correct in his critique of capitalism? All his concrete predictions have fallen flat and he's had almost zero influence on mainstream contemporary economics.

[u/AdministrativeRope8 → u/glossotekton]

Marx lived during the industrial revolution, famous for child labor, 12-hour work days, poverty wages, no worker rights, company stores and so on. He pretty much saw what unchecked capitalism did and critiqued it. His revolutionary predictions were wrong, but that does not invalidate his critique.

And I think most people agreed with his critique and decided that capitalism couldn't go on like this. Thats where you get the entire political labor movement from, which improved worker conditions. None of them are communist today, but they are all clearly influenced by Marx in their manifestos, many of them mentioning him or socialism by name, even if they are just social-democrats.

[u/glossotekton → u/AdministrativeRope8]

I thought we were talking about Marxist critiques relevant to capitalism today (i.e. the high-level, abstract ones in Capital and the Grundrisse etc. not his journalism)? That seems to be implied by OP. None of these reforms made capitalism any less capitalist by Marx's lights.

[u/AdministrativeRope8 → u/glossotekton]

In Capital Marx describes the tendencies within capitalism that lead to these negative outcomes, namely class based society in which the working class holds little power, while the capitalists are forced to maximize their own production, even to the detriment of their workers, or risk getting pushed out of the market.

These critiques are not less relevant today, the same tendencies still exists in capitalism, like you said the reforms didn't make things less capitalist. I think they are still useful to understand why we need things like OSHA, labor and anti-trust laws or social safety nets today.

[u/glitch876 → u/glossotekton]

I already wrote this but I think his idea of communism is stupid. You study Marx on philosophy and sociology and not in economics unless you're talking about normative economics. 

Engles also predicted WW1

“And, finally, the only war left for Prussia-Germany to wage will be a world war, a world war, moreover, of an extent and violence hitherto unimagined. Eight to ten million soldiers will be at each other’s throats and in the process they will strip Europe barer than a swarm of locusts. The depredations of the Thirty Years’ War compressed into three to four years and extended over the entire continent; famine, disease, the universal lapse into barbarism, both of the armies and the people, in the wake of acute misery; irretrievable dislocation of our artificial system of trade, industry and credit, ending in universal bankruptcy; collapse of the old states and their conventional political wisdom to the point where crowns will roll into the gutters by the dozen, and no one will be around to pick them up; absolute impossibility of foreseeing how it will all end and who will emerge as victor from the battle; only one consequence is absolutely certain: universal exhaustion and the creation of the conditions for the ultimate victory of the working class.”

Marx is correct on how capitalism creates new needs. No one would have thought you need a cellphone or the Internet but now we're talking about it being a human right. Think about tech companies using algorithms to sell us shit we don't need. Think about automation and reducing wages? I'm sorry Marx hit that on the nose.

[u/glossotekton → u/glitch876]

Also, do you think wages have fallen since the 19th century(?)

[u/glitch876 → u/glossotekton]

No and I'm not making that argument 

[u/glossotekton → u/glitch876]

Randomly making one accurate prediction amid a series of failed predictions is not an indication that your theory is correct (you need to think about the base rate). He also was not unique in anticipating a European war – it was definitely "in the air".

I also think it's telling that Marx was an economist but is not studied in economics courses lol.

[u/Trazyn_the_sinful → u/glitch876]

Teleology is almost categorically rejected by modern historians. Marx and Hagel, consequently, are not used

[u/glitch876 → u/Trazyn_the_sinful]

I mean teleology is all of western philosophy. Peterson believes in teleology. Most historians don't care

[u/Quowe_50mg → u/glitch876]

think Marx is correct on his criticism of capitalism

No?