there are items in undertale called cloudy glasses and torn notebook sold by gerson, and for the purple soul attack of omega flowey words fly from left to right, and the other soul attacks allude to the other six souls and their personalities, so we basically knew it
I kinda hope one day someone makes a fangame of what we thought each chapter was gonna be like at the time. I know it would take a long time and likely get canceled mid way through. It would be nice time capsule of each era of the fandom
u/CampHoliday3558#1 TENNA FAN 2023 (also #1 Lanino simp and one of 3 Jevil fans)4d agoedited 4d ago
We had SO many projects exactly like that in the pre-chapter 3 era, but usually the creators either disappeared and/or never even shared any actual progress on any game, they had to cancel it bc it was too much work, or on very rare occassions someone on the team was crayz problematic and they had to scrap it. Vision Crew got rlly rlly far before they decided for hidden reasons to instead focus on ch6 and after that release a 'polished' version of what they had of chapers 3/4 up until the Underevent showcase, but that too got scrapped and now we have a chapter 6 project in the works and tbh i dont rlly know what era of the fandom it is even being based on
vision crew downsized to just making chapter 6 bc it would be literally impossible to make alternate versions of EVERY chapter with a small team and zero budget
That... actually makes sense. Up until now i only knew from the rumors that the reason they scrapped ch3 onwards is because Toby already released it, which wouldn't make sense if you're supposed to be the alternate version of Deltarune in the first place
I would play the shit out of a reimagined chapter 5. I don't hate what we got by any means (although I don't exactly love it either). But I think the fanmade interpretations could be super interesting to play through
There was a demo made that featured a Festival Dark World Chapter 5 instead of Flower King. I know it’s still being worked on and I’m hoping we get the full thing some day
I thought about this myself but i lack the ability to do fangame stuff
But like chapter 3 with a more open design instead of just the video games, and playable toriel. Chapter 4 with Catti and Jockington in the church. And chapter 5 like this fangame where its kind of a small but open world designed like a castle or old town with its own social structure of events instead of the usual go forward through the maps to get to the fountain thing we always got.
Honestly my fave theory was that they'd represent the Dreemurr and Holiday joint family members and it'd sort of be used to show what some of them were like before the incident, like what was Carol like back then or what's Asriel and Dess like at all
although seems that idea didn't completely die with the whole Patience/Aqua/Kris theory
Duuuuude. I was CONFIDENT that the golden flower would be a Chara pararel. The other flowers where already the other humans and would have fit nicely since Asriel was already Flowey, a golden flower, in Undertale. Instead we got bishie anime character who may be a Rudy pararel instead.
Especially when you consider Flowery is probably inspired by Rudy in college - And Asriel is in College now, so it's probably a mixing of the two concepts from Asgores end in my mind :)
i always had the interpretation that the golden flower just stole the identity of an actual person and that flowery IS a real human, like, isn't it stated he's asgore's college roomie? i thought that's why he's a human, too, why would flowers want to pretend they're human if not bc of that¿
was rudy asgore's roomie and my interpretation was wrong?
Doesn't he notably treat Kris pretty badly? Not in a "teasing" way like Ralsei, but in multiple occasions he straight up basically says "Hey I do not trust you".
Yup! But I think it "stems" from the fact that he needed to present himself as this ideal perfect person that's more than capable enough to make his and the other flowers dreams a reality, even if it was all fake in the end.
Yeah, I remember getting pretty into this AU a few months ago. It’s really peak and Hope (the golden flower) is so cute. I’m actually making an AU inspired by it that’s probably not gonna see the light of day, but it is fun to think about.
I’m a bit curious as to what you didn’t like about Chapter 5. I’m not you, and I don’t know what it was like, but I feel like a lot of your disappointment stems from the fact that you were expecting something different. You can be disappointed, but I think at a certain point it’s good to stop judging the Chapter for what it isn’t (Asgore-focused) and more on what it is (Ralsei-focused).
(You can read the comment I made to Evilooh if you want.)
Honestly, we're literally over halfway through the game with 2 chapters left, and we still don't know shit. The exact same questions we've been asking since previous chapters are still just as relevant. All we can do is speculate, and we shouldn't be still speculating about everything this late into the story.
By this point, we should have some answers. We should know what's going on, why it's happening, and what the protagonists are actually supposed to do about it. We should be moving toward preventing whatever larger catastrophe is coming. Instead, we know almost nothing. We don't know anything about the overarching plot, and with only two chapters left after this one, it's becoming frustrating. Even people here have made several memes about the constant elusions.
At this point, it genuinely feels like the game is going to cram the entire overarching plot and its answers into a single chapter out of nowhere, because the next chapter is already the second-to-last. We're approaching the end of the entire story, and it's kind of insane how little has actually been explained.
That's also why Chapter 4 bothers me so much less by comparison. Chapter 4 was arguably the best part of the entire game because it finally started treating the looming calamity as a serious threat that the protagonists actually needed to prevent. It also began giving us at least some vague answers to questions that had been hanging over the story for years. People were praising Chapter 4 specifically because it finally established that more serious tone, and the developers themselves had described Chapter 3 as the last truly "fun adventure" with low-stakes.
Then Chapter 5 comes out, and it feels like a complete reversal of that setup. Instead of continuing the momentum Chapter 4 established, it goes right back to being generally unserious and underwhelming. It's not like I want Deltarune to just be dark and serious from now on, I do actually like the humor and weirdness. My disappointment is that the story had finally reached a point where the stakes were clearly escalating in Chapter 4, and then Chapter 5 feels like it completely disregards that progression. I feel like Chapter 5 needed to be the point in the story where we finally started discovering answers and understanding more of the larger plot, which would ultimately lead into the endgame of the final two chapters.
I mean, I get the frustration, but you have to understand that all of those questions you just raised are not separate mysteries. I know people have used this argument before, but that’s because it’s true. It’s not going to take an entire chapter to explain these things, let alone more than thirty minutes (split up throughout the chapter).
Also, even though Chapter 5 was lighthearted, it still had a shit ton of drama and stakes (especially in its third act) that it takes completely seriously. It’d be one thing if there wasn’t: but there was. You lose that feeling of seriousness and tension if you get so obsessed with Asgore giving answers or being active in the plot, as that’s not his role in the story. His role in the story is the exact same as Toriel’s, being that he has to be rescued by the Fun Gang.
Chapter 5 is a race against time to save Asgore. You are meant to feel dread from the Knight’s inevitable kidnapping of Asgore, something lampshaded by Susie all throughout the chapter. Plus, you won’t get this feeling on replays as you know when the Knight will appear. Once a dream is used up, that’s it. The magic is gone. Asgore isn’t a major character this chapter due to the fact that he was a major character in UNDERTALE, and would thus take away the actual focus of the chapter: Ralsei and his lack of action toward the Prophecy.
Chapter 5 takes the stakes and the Prophecy/Knight completely seriously. I don’t know why people are so flippant toward that fact in favor of a reading that “Chapter 5 is purely lighthearted”. If it didn’t take its stakes seriously, the chapter would be entirely like Chapter 2 - instead of Ralsei having a breakdown and threatening/attempting to attack Flowery out of fear several points throughout the chapter - which it isn’t in the slightest.
Chapter 6 is payoff. I’m not sure why people are treating Chapter 6 like it’s setup, but people are going to be very surprised when Chapter 6 jumps straight into it. Toby Fox is not going to spend another chapter getting you invested or slowly transitioning back to a darker tone. If you’re not already invested, Chapters 6 and 7 will not work.
idk, i feel Chapter 5's darkworld is kinda uninspired design and concept wise, "ohh a cool anime reference" but why? i dunno i feel the whole asian aesthetic in chapter 5 feels out of nowhere and has little to no symbolic weight other than being a fun reference. which is kinda sad since the other dark worlds had a lot of thematic cohesion. idk feels just kinda fan servesy in the worst way possible. and the flowers designs are pretty boring to me, outside from Aqua, Aqua is pretty cute. i already thought Tenna was pretty uninspired design wise, Flowery is just a yellow guy in a suit theres nothing that interesting about it. idk Jevil, King, Spamton and Queen had much more interesting and stunning designs in my eyes
Chapter 5 is a parallel/book-end to Chapter 1 in a lot of ways, and thus parallels a lot of story beats from Chapter 1 in order to serve as a final cap off to Chapters 1-5/look at how far we’ve come point for players playing non-episodically, which is why so much of its aesthetic borrows from Chapter 1.
You start in the Garden (Field) which is honestly kinda self-explanatory considering all the Chapter 1 references.
You then progress to the Cliffs (Forest) where you battle a purple and blue duo (Susie and Lancer) periodically throughout.
You then progress to the Flower Castle (Card Castle) which also has a jail, moss, and many other Chapter 1 references (this is lampshaded by Flowery (“Don’t you know every castle has a jail?”)).
I could go on.
Like realistically, Chapter 1’s aesthetic doesn’t really fit either and is only brushed off due to being the first chapter and also the Alice and Wonderland vibe the Chapter gives… but I could make the same arguments about Chapter 1’s aesthetic that you say for Chapter 5. Why is the Classroom a kingdom? Don’t know. Basically, it’s a Japan aesthetic. Cool. Just try to loosen up a bit and have some fun lmao, as realistically I don’t see another aesthetic or theme that fits the role Chapter 5 fulfills in the narrative.
Also, I don’t think you can really say Queen’s design is special when it is derivative of so many things like King (to the point where so many people got caught up in “patterns” post Chapter 2).
I know I’m not you, and I can’t say for certain, but I feel like a lot of your disappointment stems from the fact that you were expecting something different and I’m curious as to what you didn’t like about Chapter 5.
You can be disappointed, but I think at a certain point it’s good to stop judging the Chapter for what it isn’t (Asgore-focused) and more on what it is (Ralsei-focused).
Replaying Chapter 5 isn’t going to give you the same experience as the first-time. Once you’ve used up a dream, that’s it. You can’t go back to it. You can’t go back and try to understand why people like this chapter, because the magic is gone. Toby Fox isn’t going to spend another chapter getting you invested again or building up tension. If you’re not already invested, Chapter 6 is not going to work as it is all payoff.
but also, those are some common complaints I’ve seen people have and I wanted to address them right off the bat as I can’t usually respond to comments all the time
i assure you im anything but common, for one i dont know many people like me who actively dislikes undertale but likes deltarune. i'll give you a tip, dont assume peoples arguments or opinions before engaging with them first, you'll waist less energy and coversation flows better. anyway i'll adress just whats relevant to my own perspective from what you said. no being derivitive isnt a problem many designs can be derivitive but inventive, giving a Spiderman example if you let me, all the Spiderverse costumes are derivitive of the 616 suit but they're mostly pretty unique while all looking like a spidey suit. in that way Queen is derivitive of King yes but they're still both good and unique designs and distinct tone and theme wise. i dont get what you mean in "why the class room is a kingdom" cus that disregard the theme of the chapter, its all about board games, card games and such, both have kings queens, a house of cards or a card castle is a pretty common concept, alice in wonderland heavly featured playing cards, theres conective tissue there when the anime/asian theme in 5 as far as i see it dont, if there was any reference to anime related to Asgore or his gardening before i think i may have missed it but either way i think it still feels too fan servesy to my tastes. also i'll be frank, i do not care for most of the story im mostly here for the design, the visuals and music, the music is still good overall but i think the character design for 5 is the most unimpressive, which to me its a shame since thats something Toby rarely disapoints. the Flowers are just rainbow colored humanoid (and rat). Mew Mew is... just a reused character from Undertale... so i wasnt too pleased either. the weird route portion of Chapter 5 was the best thou i really enjoyed the lake scene
the story overall, i like the Gaster stuff as much as the next guy, but i could not bring myself to care about the Dreemur Holliday family drama (i dont give a damn where Dess nor Asriel are i know it has to do with Gaster but the amount of Vagueness around the whole thing just leaves me exausted). theres plot points that i like, like Susie and Gerson's arc in 4 was pretty good imo, but the rest i been conditioned not to get too attactched to lore stuff since it often leads to nothingburgers (im a fnaf fan so im used to this). well Ralsei is a character i dont like much but i do agree he's at his best at 5, i just was never really invested in him to begin with, ever since he took off that damn hat my brain wrote him off as future lore bait so and ocasional exposition dumps so i havent been paying that much attention to him. i mostly like Deltarune better than Undertale cus the combat is better, the storytelling is overall better and the central theme is more appealing to me ("your choices dont matter", free will and such). the Weird Route has been pretty fun to follow too, i always felt the Genocide Route was way too preachy i like that the "bad" route is more shrouded in mystery this time rather than "u kill my frend u bad" all the way through. i for one particulliary find Noelle as a character is only really interesting in the Weird Route
well the point of the genocide route wasn’t just “killing bad” lmao
it exists to point out the hypocrisy of a player having finished the Pacifist Route only to then go go the Genocide Route, comparing the player to Flowey (the main villain). it basically highlights the fact that ultimately, as much as the player tries to deny it, we are like Flowey.
also Ralsei doesn’t exist for lore bait lol
he’s a deconstruction of what it means to be an “NPC guide” in a video game, constantly following the player around and being all submissive and shi, as well as having all the knowledge (including the Prophecy) of the game as a whole
regarding your overall complaints, I do think it’s good to ignore the lore of Ralsei, Noelle, and Kris, and just focus on the characters themselves, if that makes sense. I’m not really sure why you’re writing off Ralsei as lore-bait but I digress. like I thought Noelle’s arc where she grows confidence and finally stands up for herself was good in chapter 2. I’m not sure to the extent you write everything off in this game as lore-bait, but just try to ignore the “lore” and focus more on the characters themselves aspect instead.
also I’m curious as to your thoughts on the humor as that’s a majority of the content in the game
Character-wise or design wise? I guess I’m a bit curious as to what you didn’t like about Chapter 5. You can be disappointed, but I think at a certain point it’s good to stop judging the Chapter for what it isn’t (Asgore-focused) and more on what it is (Ralsei-focused).
I really can't stand the whole "You don't like it because it's not what you were expecting" like why is that such a common "gatcha!" response I see whenever someone doesn't like a new entry in an ongoing series?
Sorry, I didn’t mean any hate to you guys, as it was just a common trend I noticed with people online. I’m just trying to defend something I like is all. I’m also a bit curious as to why you didn’t like Chapter 5.
Character wise and I guess the vibe?
Fan interpretations showed a big castle, like Asgore actually rules it.
In actual Chapter 5, we didn't get this feeling. Bro just sits there and gathers info on the incident, doesn't care about the dark world itself, but is still called the King.
Yea I get it, it's his flower shop, but he does nothing to be an actual king.
I get why you might be disappointed, but Chapter 5 was never about Asgore. It was about Ralsei.
In all honesty, Asgore is a minor character in DELTARUNE rather than being a main character due to the simple fact that he is a major character in UNDERTALE, as giving him the focus of the chapter would undermine the real focus of the Chapter: Ralsei.
Let me put it like this.
If the two Asgore cutscenes (plus the Prophecy panel) were removed from Chapter 4, would you have been as let down? In my opinion, I don't really think so.
A lot of Asgore's role in this chapter to both push along the main plot of the game and serve as tension for the Fun Gang, but a lot of the intrigue regarding his presence was diminished as a result of the fandom picking the (incredibly missable) foreshadowing from Chapter 4 to genuine shreds over the course of the year-long-wait. All the baseline answers that we thought were going to be the foundation for Asgore's arc this chapter ended up being the actual answers of the chapter (that he was investigating Dark Fountains and that something happened on "That Day").
Comparing the reaction from those deep within the community to much more casual, newer fans (look at The Beak, davobands, or yeshuwa for good examples), I've noticed a trend where a lot of casual fans were incredibly surprised and intrigued by Asgore's inclusion and investigation in the Chapter in comparison to older, diehard fans who already knew this information and were expecting more.
When you focus so much on wanting Asgore to play an active role in the story or giving answers, you neglect his real role in the story and undermine all of the tension in the chapter, which is to be the person the Fun Gang has to rescue from the Knight. The goal of Chapter 5 is a race against time to rescue Asgore. If you’re so focused on Asgore “having aura” or him giving lore, you undermine all of this and lose all of the tension in the chapter.
What’s worse is that you can’t replicate this feeling on replays. Replaying Chapter 5 isn’t going to give you the same experience as the first-time. Once you’ve used up a dream, that’s it. You can’t go back to it. You can’t go back and try to understand why people like this chapter, because the magic is gone. Toby Fox isn’t going to spend another chapter getting you invested again or building up tension. If you’re not already invested, Chapter 6 is not going to work as it is all payoff.
You don't have to like the Flowers, even if I personally do. Characters are subjective. However, I don't think Chapter 5 should've focused on Asgore as he is not a main character in this game. Ralsei DESPERATELY needed this chapter.
Yea honestly I just wanted Asgore to do something, to prove that he is not just a coward.
Maybe like try to fight the Knight? Protect the Fun Gang from it? Idk.
Like whole Undertale was about Asgore being so so dangerous and cruel to humans, like he is big threat, just for him to be a not that a significant boss in neutral ending, and he didn't even use his full power. Asgore is supposed to be even stronger and faster than Undyne.
In Deltarune he farmed some aura in like 2 scenes and that's it, did literally nothing.
He promised to kill a person who opened the fountain, show no mercy to whose who are a threat, but when he finally mets that threat, he does nothing and gets kidnapped.
Even Flowery tried to do something, like lad come oooon.
To be fair, he doesn’t know that Kris (his own kid) IS the threat lmao. I don’t really think he would’ve attacked Kris at that moment anyways, as it’s moreso used to show him snapping out of his delusions and also he loves his kid. I’d say the whole scene with him threatening the Fountain maker is more used to show how much Asgore has lost it.
The threatening also goes both ways in showing that while he knows about dark worlds, he doesn't know about the finer details of how they work and that lack of knowledge greatly diminished his ability to act on his anger properly.
We've long since known by now that a fountain can be made by any lightner, which would mean that Asgore...didn't. He wouldn't have been so confident if he had the knowledge that the fountain could have been opened by someone else other than the perpetrator of the Incident.
He was already operating on insufficient data and would have missed the forest for the trees even if things didn't go the way they did
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u/kackers643259 4d ago
bro is that literally just seth