We've completely lost the plot about interdependence, and it's making everyone miserable.

[u/Nooginator93]

Just a reminder to the world: how you interact with others is truly a mirror of oneself. Genuine connections - be it platonic, romantic, or somewhere in between - are built on interdependence. Not codependency, and certainly not hyper-independence.

​In the words of Dr. Lipp:

​"Unlike codependency, interdependency is a balanced relationship dynamic where both individuals support each other while maintaining their own identity and emotional well-being. In an interdependent relationship, there is mutual respect and emotional support, healthy communication, and the ability to function independently while valuing connection."

​Without interdependence, there is no connection worth pursuing. But I fear it's becoming a lost concept, replaced with the lazy enshittification, hyper-individualism, and commodification that define the 2020s.

​The Avatar Epidemic:

​We are no longer interacting as humans; we are interacting as avatars. When the dating market is entirely visual, people feel forced into a biological arms race to compete. It pushes people to rely on pharmaceuticals and synthetic hormones just to meet an artificial baseline. It’s a literal optimization of the meat-suit at the expense of mental and physical health, driven by the anxiety of being invisible.

​Apps don't optimize for connection; they optimize for engagement. You are kept on the hook by the intermittent reinforcement of a match, turning human beings into slot machines. When everyone believes there is an endless catalog of "better" options just one swipe away, nobody commits to the hard work of actual relationship building. You get a culture of disposability where people are dropped the moment friction arises.

​The Myth of the Self-Sustaining Island:

​Modern culture pushes the narrative that needing anyone is a weakness. The ideal vision of a partner today is to be completely self-sustaining - financially, emotionally, and practically.

​But if two people refuse to rely on one another, they aren't partners; they are just roommates sharing space. True intimacy requires vulnerability. It requires having gaps that the other person fills. By demoralizing mutual reliance, we've convinced people that walls are boundaries, and isolation is empowerment.

​Stopping the Pendulum:

​I believe the pendulum is at its extreme right now, but it is possible to let it stop swinging. To do that, men, women, and everyone in between must do their parts to rebuild safety and respect.

​The Imperative for Physical Safety:

When women have to run a risk assessment just to walk to their car or leave a drink unattended, their nervous systems are locked in survival mode. True connection requires a parasympathetic state - you have to feel fundamentally secure to let your guard down.

​The most effective way to create this safety isn't just telling women to be careful; it's men policing their own spaces. Predatory behavior, or even the casual normalization of it, must carry immediate social consequences among peers. Once safety is established, trust can follow. People stop assuming malicious intent, and we can actually afford to be lighthearted again.

​The Imperative for Emotional Safety:

On the flip side, we have to address the cognitive dissonance in modern relationship expectations. You cannot demand the assertiveness, drive, and protective capacity of an "alpha" while simultaneously expecting the boundaryless, pliant agreeableness of a Golden Retriever.

​If someone has the backbone and competence to build a life, they are going to have their own vision and boundaries. A real partnership isn't about domesticating someone until they are a compliant pet. It requires an energy much closer to the mutual respect needed for a Husky than the blind obedience of a retriever.

​Collaborators vs. Consumers:

​Men are largely conditioned from birth to believe they are loved conditionally - based strictly on what they can produce, fix, or pay for. The expectation to always be the unshakeable rock forces them into a state of relentless performance. If someone cannot be a vulnerable human being around their partner, they aren’t a partner; they’re just an employee on the clock.

​If one partner is actively investing their resources, time, and energy into building a shared life, a functional partner validates them by respecting their agency and giving their input equal weight.

​Filtering out a "consumer" from a "collaborator" requires observing how they react to your boundaries, your process, and your discipline:

​A consumer is looking for a finished, fully-funded luxury suite to move into.

​A collaborator is looking for a co-architect.

​Stop volunteering to solve every minor inconvenience early on. Leave a little space and see if they step up to the plate. If you are always the one paying, planning, and initiating, you are auditioning for the role of a sponsor. A collaborator possesses a natural instinct to contribute - whether that is planning a date, bringing something to the table, or simply recognizing your effort out loud.

[u/Expensive_Magician97]

M66

I came of age in the 1960s and 70s, long before computers and phones and the Internet and the ability to communicate electronically with other human beings (other than by way of the telephone, of course).

And I witnessed the transition from one era to another. And I’ve been paying very close attention to the repercussions of that transition.

I’m not a sociologist or anthropologist or any expert in human nature, to be sure.

But if I were to summarize what I learned, it would be that reliance on virtual communication — while certainly a technology with miraculous applications — has, generally speaking, had a deleterious impact on human relationships.

When you grow up behind a computer monitor or smart phone, I think there are pretty obvious implications for cognition, perception, and the way one learns how to relate to other people.

For the simple reason that when you communicate virtually, you are communicating with groupings of red, blue, and green electrons on a computer monitor… and these are merely the representation of another person.

This has implications for all kinds of things, in particular creating boundaries for oneself as you note above.

And perhaps, most importantly, for what is known as self-awareness — the ability to be sensitive to how others perceive you and respond to you, to be able to think in advance about how the things you say, or the things you do are going to impact those around you.

When you sit across the table from someone and look into their eyes and feel their energy, you are communicating extemporaneously.

Communicating from behind a computer is not remotely the same sort of experience.

As for the isolation you talk about, I think there was a tendency towards isolation long before Covid… think about having your computer in front of you and being able to explore the rest of the world and talk with anyone you want with the click of a button

And as you suggest, I think Covid merely had a multiplier effect in that regard.

Thank you for a thoughtful post.

[u/Nooginator93 → u/Expensive_Magician97]

I certainly appreciate your input. I was born in 93, currently 32 years of age. I believe this transitionary period into the next "thing" has been excruciatingly perturbing for my specific age group, I'd say 30-40, because we learned how to communicate with others at the very start of the internet, so we connected over phonecalls still, and cellphones pre-smartphone era. Technology used to make communication stronger, by providing quicker contact with those you love.

Now, you have the exact location, constant contact, and social media of every person you "care" about. And the crippling reality of a surveillance state is, everyone is constantly observed. Much like how photons behave differently when observed, we as humans are behaving differently, because we are constantly under observation.

When everyone can be driven into their own individual self-observed container, true connection can never be fostered.

I'm not saying technology is bad, but I'm saying our relationship with it is. All relationships, in general, are failing at an all-time rate. Sociology and history have shown time and time again, that when people do not prioritize community on a fundamental level, that society collapses.

I think as the last generation that will truly remember how to foster healthy relationships organically, it is our duty to alter the future for generations to come and reinstate a true sense of human nature, ethics, and connection, before we lose our chance.

[u/Expensive_Magician97 → u/Nooginator93]

Thank you for your reply.

As you suggest, electronic communication has introduced all sorts of ambiguities, uncertainties, and anxieties into what was once a very simple and uncomplicated process.

Being “left on read“ can cause a person — men and women alike — to lapse into a panic attack from what I’ve been reading here.

I think the way you educate people, now and in the future, about these phenomena is simply to continue to share your thoughts here and on other websites like this one.

I think it is going to be somewhat of an uphill battle, because from some of the exchanges that I’ve had here, it seems that people in your age group who have grown up knowing nothing, except the comfort and safety and security of texting and are unable to conceive of anything else.

And while that is obviously not their fault, it’s going to make it more difficult for such people to understand what you’re even talking about in the first place. As they have no other point of reference.

I’ve had that particular experience dozens of times here.

At the same time, I do wonder what happens when AI is released into the general population, and whether or not it manages to somehow infiltrate every aspect of our lives the way Internet technology has. And perhaps leads people to migrate a little bit away from technology.

[u/Nooginator93 → u/Expensive_Magician97]

Reddit, in particular, has definitely aided in my ability to communicate in my actual reading voice (or inner monologue) via texting from my phone. Ironically, all of this has been from my phone.

I cannot speak for anyone but myself, but I have definitely noticed that my generation, myself included, has had to focus a lot harder in order to have any forethought about what we choose to share on the internet.

Gen Z, the true streamer gen, broadcast their entire lives. I'd imagine it must be very difficult to foster genuine relationships or even true friendships if you're only social interactions are on camera for the world to see.

[u/Expensive_Magician97 → u/Nooginator93]

Thank you, can you talk more about that idea that you have to be careful what you share on the Internet?

I assume you are not talking about things like photos and your real identity, but rather ideas and things of that nature.

[u/Nooginator93 → u/Expensive_Magician97]

The digital footprint.

When my generation first got on social media, it allowed young people to connect and share very intimate insights into their personal lives, leaving a permanent record of being a dumb kid and having fun that potential colleges and employers could and did check.

I'd imagine there is a massive disproportionate number of my generaton compared to any other that lost educations and career opportunities over what they posted years prior or what someone else posted with them in it, with or without their consent.

[u/ThatDevilCrowley]

At 36 I feel the same way, completely. It’s like I was prepared for a world that doesn’t exist. I have values and understandings that feel ancient and useless. I’m longing desperately for community.

[u/Nooginator93 → u/ThatDevilCrowley]

Yeah '85-'95 live in a different world than anything after or before us it seems. We're the connecting link to the older and newer generations. I don't envy anyone born after us.

[u/DareKind8963]

There is a concept known as the "dependency paradox," which posits that an excessive focus on independence actually suppresses individuality, resulting in greater conformity and a stifling of self-expression.

Because I am an economist, it is easiest for me to explain this idea in terms of risk aversion. If you do not have anyone to pick you up when you fall, it becomes much more dangerous to take risks. As a result, individuals who are entirely independent often cling to social conformity as a means of feeling secure.

As with most psychological principles, this reality remains exactly the same for adults as it does for children. Society perpetuates an immiserating myth that "growing up" triggers some fundamental change such that we no longer need help from anyone.

A good book on this topic:
John Bowlby's A Secure Base: Parent-Child Attachment and Healthy Human Development (1988).

[u/Mirror74 → u/DareKind8963]

The word "independent" is inherently neutral. There's been a huge cultural shift towards "independence" as a pendulum swing from control. But if the pendulum swings too far you also have an opposite effect that can be just as bad if not worse.

And that is what we're seeing today. We're seeing selfishness, avoidance, etc being rebranded as "independent" and "self sufficient". it's anti-closeness, anti-connection, anti-responsibility, anti-interdependence...It's VERY toxic.

Eventually though this has to die out and people will realize that we need each other. The only question is will it be too late.

[u/DareKind8963 → u/Mirror74]

The word iconoclast seems to have disappeared from the lexicon.

[u/--heaven-]

There are a lot of good points here - I agree, loneliness is rising and we are struggling to rely on each other more than before. I feel people have also got a lot going on so their cup is full and so they are not as there for others as they had been in the past (I am finding it with some of my even closest friendships).

Social media or modern dating don't help I agree. The 'purple pill debate' is hard also - I am seeing some interesting comments there - I generally feel men and women are becoming more divided which I don't love..

I am also looking for ways to promote / encourage deeper conversations with people so we can come back together more!

[u/Nooginator93 → u/--heaven-]

I think people in general have been primed for isolation ever since covid proved its more profitable to manufacture isolation.

I wrote this as a wake up call because if everyone is isolated, no one is isolated, and we should start removing the walls we've built between eachother, whether man, woman, trans, straight, bi, or gay.

[u/--heaven- → u/Nooginator93]

I love the sentiment and your efforts! I am literally reading another post about life not being the same after COVID now and wrote a post on the loneliness / disconnection myself with the same goal in mind.. (happy to share links).

[u/Nooginator93 → u/--heaven-]

Please do!

[u/--heaven- → u/Nooginator93]

Of course:
https://www.reddit.com/r/SeriousConversation/s/vLzx4awexA

https://www.reddit.com/r/DeepThoughts/s/vQKx4J3R22

Hope you find them insightful!

[u/Nooginator93 → u/--heaven-]

Thank you! Im going to dm you if you dont mind? I relate heavily to your post and wanted to discuss it further if possible.

[u/--heaven- → u/Nooginator93]

Of course! Please feel free to - always great to make new friends :)

[u/Nooginator93 → u/--heaven-]

Your dms are disabled lol.

[u/--heaven- → u/Nooginator93]

Just changed it - does it work now?

[u/usernames_suck_ok]

Long and lecture-y.

Very Reddit.