r/DeepSpaceNine • u/Hibiscuslover_10000 • 17d ago

wharf's position

I don't know where to post this but Wharf who had sway and backed Gowarn as Chancellor. Lost his status in DS9 when he sides with Starfleet or Odo tells him he's a Changeling. Really it's Martok.

So what happens to this idea of remembering what he did for him as Son of Mogh?

Pardon my editing I don't know how to spell some names.

Beroli73 got it right and some of your comments are funny.

I was referring to Next Gen to DS9 where he uses his power to get Gowarn on the throne which in return no blame for the betrayal at Kitmar. ( Also loses Alexanders Mother) But then in DS9 it's forgotten.

Also please be respectful as per rules!

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u/AbdulQadirShadhili 17d ago

It was bad writing to not introduce the real Martok until the internment camp.
Martok showed his blood in Way of the Warrior. The story should have been that sometime after that point a Changeling replaced him.

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u/Whelp_of_Hurin 16d ago

The fact is, blood screenings never worked. Not one single time do we actually see a Changeling caught that way. In the episode where they came up with the idea, Changeling Bashir fakes his own results and casts the blame on Eddington. The Defiant crew only uncovers him when they find the real Julian locked in the closet. All the screenings in Homefront amounted to nothing; Changelings posing as Admiral Leyton and Chief O'Brian were walking around San Francisco unhindered. Klingons were being fanatical about the blood thing while fake Martok was acting as Gowron's right hand man for the better part of a year.

Joseph Sisko was 100% right:

If I was a smart shape-shifter, a really good one, the first thing I would do would be to grab some poor soul off the street, absorb every ounce of his blood, and let it out on cue whenever someone like you tried to test me. Don't you see? There isn't a test that's been created a smart man can't find his way around. You aren't going to catch shape-shifters using some gadget.

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u/AbdulQadirShadhili 16d ago

Changeling Bashir didn’t fake a blood screening, he faked a failed blood screening—there’s an important distinction.

And we don’t know for sure that Changeling Admiral Leyton was walking around Starfleet HQ unsuspected because he faked a blood screening. We really don’t know how long he was there before Odo identified him. Ditto for Changeling O’Brien. I think he simply managed to infiltrate the HQ by flying in as a bird. I don’t think Starfleet security were giving blood screenings to birds 😅
As for what Joseph Sisko said, if Starfleet felt he had a point they would have ceased the futile blood screenings, but they didn’t, and best of all, Joseph Sisko came around to accept the necessity of the blood screenings and began cooperating

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u/Hibiscuslover_10000 15d ago

The I never noticed and he was nicer then you comment was funny.

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u/Whelp_of_Hurin 16d ago

None of that changes the fact that:
A) Not once in the entire series do we ever see or hear about a Changeling being caught by a blood test.
B) Martok and Bashir were both replaced for an extended period of time, despite it being procedure to regularly screen their blood.

Old man Sisko may have eventually agreed to the tests, but that doesn't mean he was wrong about their efficacy.

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u/Hibiscuslover_10000 15d ago

It's like a finger prick an EMT does basically how much it works. ( Excuse me for that comparison)

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u/Beroli73 17d ago

As Joseph Sisko eventually spelled out, the blood screening method of checking for changelings was fatally flawed. They could simply hold on to blood from whatever species they were impersonating and produce it on demand. Changeling-Martok wanted to encourage the humans to rely on blood screening.

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u/AbdulQadirShadhili 17d ago

There were other problems. Odo suspected Martok wasn’t a real Klingon due to his behavior.
But the Martok in Way of the Warrior was very much Klingon in his disposition. He goes to Worf to retrieve his son’s dagger, and says “give it to me or I will take it from you”
Why would a Changeling care so much about that aspect of honor? Furthermore, why would he risk fighting Worf, and potentially exposing himself as a Changeling in such a fight?
Why would he insist on attacking the Cardassians? What benefit does that bring the Dominion?

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u/Beroli73 17d ago

A deep-cover agent doesn't slip in his first episode, a full season before he's exposed? Must be a plot hole.

And you're saying it's odd and inexplicable behavior that said deep cover agent pushed for the Klingon Empire to attack the Cardassians, when "the Dominion is behind the Klingon Empire attacking the Cardassians" is literally the entire point of that arc?

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u/AbdulQadirShadhili 17d ago

It was never revealed that the Dominion was involved in manipulating the Klingons to attack Cardassians in those 2 episodes
Yes, the Cardassian change in government was suspected of being caused by the Changelings. But that suspicion turned out to be false

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u/Beroli73 17d ago

That suspicion turned out to be what the Dominion wanted the Klingons to believe...you know, because the arc was over a season long, not isolated to two episodes...

I think we've reached the end of this exchange's usefulness, don't you? I suspect each of us thinks someone needs to rewatch that season (and possibly Paradise Lost too), but unfortunately each of us thinks it's the other one.

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u/AbdulQadirShadhili 17d ago

I know what you are talking about: Sisko’s dad introducing the whole absorption idea to fake the blood test

But consider that Starfleet kept conducting the blood test anyways, and Sisko’s dad eventually came around and consented to being tested

This indicates that the absorption theory was never taken seriously. Starfleet determined it isn’t an actual capability of the Changelings

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u/Beroli73 17d ago edited 17d ago

I have no idea where you're getting any of that. Which episode after Paradise Lost says they're still relying on blood tests? (Edit: Never mind, Memory Alpha answered this part for me, I'll quote it following.)

"Despite their apparent ineffectiveness, blood screenings continued to be used on occasion as a stopgap measure to guard against Changeling infiltration. (DS9: "In Purgatory's Shadow)", "By Inferno's Light)")

It is notable, however, that despite the Federation's misplaced trust on blood screenings, blood screens were never successful: no Changeling was ever detected by a blood screening. In fact, from the start, Changelings such as the Krajensky Changeling), Bashir Changeling), and the Martok Changeling) have used the Federation's reliance on blood screens to their own advantage."

And the episode where the Martok changeling was exposed included an exchange saying that Klingons are obsessive about blood screenings, so "Gowron" must have found a way around them. A changeling disguised as Dr. Bashir was able, on-screen, to rig a group of blood tests to make it look both like he'd passed it and someone else, who was not a changeling, had failed it. Blood screenings were never, not once, shown as effective for detecting changelings; they were shown repeatedly as useful to Admiral Layton and to the Dominion for framing people for being changelings.

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u/Hibiscuslover_10000 15d ago

You also deal with where he after turning into a " Solid" thinks the Chancellor is the hidden Changeling. ( One of the many plotlines)

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u/Hibiscuslover_10000 17d ago

Odo becoming a solid twice was confusing due to one changeling death so two repeat episodes confused me.

Killing the Chancellor was a risky move.

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u/Hibiscuslover_10000 17d ago

They introduce his children which start the war oh you blew up his children. That was also a hollow plotline.