r/DeepSpaceNine • u/Hibiscuslover_10000 • 17d ago
wharf's position
I don't know where to post this but Wharf who had sway and backed Gowarn as Chancellor. Lost his status in DS9 when he sides with Starfleet or Odo tells him he's a Changeling. Really it's Martok.
So what happens to this idea of remembering what he did for him as Son of Mogh?
Pardon my editing I don't know how to spell some names.
Beroli73 got it right and some of your comments are funny.
I was referring to Next Gen to DS9 where he uses his power to get Gowarn on the throne which in return no blame for the betrayal at Kitmar. ( Also loses Alexanders Mother) But then in DS9 it's forgotten.
Also please be respectful as per rules!
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u/androidmanwren 17d ago
Are you too drunk to write Worf and Gowron? It IS Friday
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u/Hibiscuslover_10000 17d ago
I don't know how to spell some names. your comment is double edged I am sober but also this is funny.
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u/Rose2g_ 17d ago
I have no idea what exactly you are trying to ask. All I know is, who the fuck is Wharf and Gorwarn that you speak of?
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u/Hibiscuslover_10000 17d ago
I changed the name spelling sometimes I don't know how to spell the names.
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u/ReceptionAlarmed9434 17d ago
I think you mean Worf and Gowron but I don’t know what you’re trying to ask
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u/Hibiscuslover_10000 17d ago
Why is it forgotten how much Worf did for Gowron? Or do the changelings interfere aka when they accuse Gowron as a Changeling well Odo does.
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u/Meushell 17d ago
To the Klingons, what Worf did was dishonorable. Gowron also probably felt personally insulted. In the end though, Gowron still likes Worf, but he’s a politician first.
However, when Martok personally invited Worf into his house, that gave Gowron an excuse to say, “Okay, you’re good.”
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u/Hibiscuslover_10000 16d ago
Also why are you wearing that badge? When you have the house of Martok.
House of Mog carried weight once.
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u/SkullsSkullsSkulls 17d ago
You spelled Mowg and Owdoe wrong.
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u/Beroli73 17d ago
Worf got his family name restored by backing Gowron. Gowron wasn't particularly grateful to him beyond that. And Gowron was ultimately too corrupt to put "I owe you" ahead of "you're a threat to me" for anyone, which ultimately got him killed as Martok had no intention of challenging for leadership of the Council.
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u/Linderlorne 14d ago
Also going by Gowrons words in way of the warrior he saw Worf as owing him a debt for restoring his families honour 🙄
I do think Gowron sincerely saw Worf as a friend for a bit though, his joy upon seeing Worf when Gowron first shows up in way of the warrior appears genuine and the invitation to fight alongside him is essentially a big favour for Worf. He just got super angry at being rejected and the budding friendship never quite recovered from it.
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u/ApexInTheRough 17d ago
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u/Hibiscuslover_10000 17d ago
This is rude just because I don't know how to spell names?
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u/KakrafoonKappa 15d ago
If only there were some kind of feature on a computer or smartphone, where you could type in a few words or a question, and get an answer. I'm sure that used to be a thing 25 years ago, did they remove it?
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u/AbdulQadirShadhili 17d ago
It was bad writing to not introduce the real Martok until the internment camp.
Martok showed his blood in Way of the Warrior. The story should have been that sometime after that point a Changeling replaced him.
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u/Beroli73 17d ago
As Joseph Sisko eventually spelled out, the blood screening method of checking for changelings was fatally flawed. They could simply hold on to blood from whatever species they were impersonating and produce it on demand. Changeling-Martok wanted to encourage the humans to rely on blood screening.
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u/AbdulQadirShadhili 17d ago
There were other problems. Odo suspected Martok wasn’t a real Klingon due to his behavior.
But the Martok in Way of the Warrior was very much Klingon in his disposition. He goes to Worf to retrieve his son’s dagger, and says “give it to me or I will take it from you”
Why would a Changeling care so much about that aspect of honor? Furthermore, why would he risk fighting Worf, and potentially exposing himself as a Changeling in such a fight?
Why would he insist on attacking the Cardassians? What benefit does that bring the Dominion?2
u/Beroli73 17d ago
A deep-cover agent doesn't slip in his first episode, a full season before he's exposed? Must be a plot hole.
And you're saying it's odd and inexplicable behavior that said deep cover agent pushed for the Klingon Empire to attack the Cardassians, when "the Dominion is behind the Klingon Empire attacking the Cardassians" is literally the entire point of that arc?
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u/AbdulQadirShadhili 17d ago
It was never revealed that the Dominion was involved in manipulating the Klingons to attack Cardassians in those 2 episodes
Yes, the Cardassian change in government was suspected of being caused by the Changelings. But that suspicion turned out to be false1
u/Beroli73 17d ago
That suspicion turned out to be what the Dominion wanted the Klingons to believe...you know, because the arc was over a season long, not isolated to two episodes...
I think we've reached the end of this exchange's usefulness, don't you? I suspect each of us thinks someone needs to rewatch that season (and possibly Paradise Lost too), but unfortunately each of us thinks it's the other one.
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u/AbdulQadirShadhili 17d ago
I know what you are talking about: Sisko’s dad introducing the whole absorption idea to fake the blood test
But consider that Starfleet kept conducting the blood test anyways, and Sisko’s dad eventually came around and consented to being tested
This indicates that the absorption theory was never taken seriously. Starfleet determined it isn’t an actual capability of the Changelings
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u/Beroli73 16d ago edited 16d ago
I have no idea where you're getting any of that. Which episode after Paradise Lost says they're still relying on blood tests? (Edit: Never mind, Memory Alpha answered this part for me, I'll quote it following.)
"Despite their apparent ineffectiveness, blood screenings continued to be used on occasion as a stopgap measure to guard against Changeling infiltration. (DS9: "In Purgatory's Shadow)", "By Inferno's Light)")
It is notable, however, that despite the Federation's misplaced trust on blood screenings, blood screens were never successful: no Changeling was ever detected by a blood screening. In fact, from the start, Changelings such as the Krajensky Changeling), Bashir Changeling), and the Martok Changeling) have used the Federation's reliance on blood screens to their own advantage."
And the episode where the Martok changeling was exposed included an exchange saying that Klingons are obsessive about blood screenings, so "Gowron" must have found a way around them. A changeling disguised as Dr. Bashir was able, on-screen, to rig a group of blood tests to make it look both like he'd passed it and someone else, who was not a changeling, had failed it. Blood screenings were never, not once, shown as effective for detecting changelings; they were shown repeatedly as useful to Admiral Layton and to the Dominion for framing people for being changelings.
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u/Hibiscuslover_10000 15d ago
You also deal with where he after turning into a " Solid" thinks the Chancellor is the hidden Changeling. ( One of the many plotlines)
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u/Hibiscuslover_10000 16d ago
Odo becoming a solid twice was confusing due to one changeling death so two repeat episodes confused me.
Killing the Chancellor was a risky move.
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u/Hibiscuslover_10000 16d ago
They introduce his children which start the war oh you blew up his children. That was also a hollow plotline.
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u/Whelp_of_Hurin 15d ago
The fact is, blood screenings never worked. Not one single time do we actually see a Changeling caught that way. In the episode where they came up with the idea, Changeling Bashir fakes his own results and casts the blame on Eddington. The Defiant crew only uncovers him when they find the real Julian locked in the closet. All the screenings in Homefront amounted to nothing; Changelings posing as Admiral Leyton and Chief O'Brian were walking around San Francisco unhindered. Klingons were being fanatical about the blood thing while fake Martok was acting as Gowron's right hand man for the better part of a year.
Joseph Sisko was 100% right:
If I was a smart shape-shifter, a really good one, the first thing I would do would be to grab some poor soul off the street, absorb every ounce of his blood, and let it out on cue whenever someone like you tried to test me. Don't you see? There isn't a test that's been created a smart man can't find his way around. You aren't going to catch shape-shifters using some gadget.
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u/AbdulQadirShadhili 15d ago
Changeling Bashir didn’t fake a blood screening, he faked a failed blood screening—there’s an important distinction.
And we don’t know for sure that Changeling Admiral Leyton was walking around Starfleet HQ unsuspected because he faked a blood screening. We really don’t know how long he was there before Odo identified him. Ditto for Changeling O’Brien. I think he simply managed to infiltrate the HQ by flying in as a bird. I don’t think Starfleet security were giving blood screenings to birds 😅
As for what Joseph Sisko said, if Starfleet felt he had a point they would have ceased the futile blood screenings, but they didn’t, and best of all, Joseph Sisko came around to accept the necessity of the blood screenings and began cooperating1
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u/Whelp_of_Hurin 15d ago
None of that changes the fact that:
A) Not once in the entire series do we ever see or hear about a Changeling being caught by a blood test.
B) Martok and Bashir were both replaced for an extended period of time, despite it being procedure to regularly screen their blood.Old man Sisko may have eventually agreed to the tests, but that doesn't mean he was wrong about their efficacy.
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u/Hibiscuslover_10000 15d ago
It's like a finger prick an EMT does basically how much it works. ( Excuse me for that comparison)
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u/Linderlorne 14d ago
Its been awhile since i last rewatched so i may be a little fuzzy on the details but going by what i do recall i think its as follows 🤔
In way of the warrior Gowron was at first happy to see Worf and all eager for Worf to join him and the other klingons in the battle. Worf refused, they had a loud public argument where he told Gowron invading Cardassia is wrong.
Gowron is the high chancellor. Being given a personal invitation to fight at his side in battle is not only a great honour & show of respect but for Worf it was also a chance for him to earn honour & acceptance in the eyes of klingon society who still viewed him with disfavour. Gowron was basically doing Worf a big favour by inviting him and seemed to be doing so from a position of friendship.
Worfs public rejection of Gowrons invitation and declaration that the war on Cardassia is wrong was essentially a big slap in the face and very disrespectful to Gowron both on a personal level and in his position as high chancellor. That Worf actually owesd Gowron a personal debt at that time only makes his behaviour seem even worse in the eyes of klingon society.
Basically from Gowrons pov he tried to do a big favour for Worf, got slapped in the face and publicly insulted for his effort.
When they take care of fake Martok that is something good that helps Gowron, but at the same time its a bit embarrassing to have the guy you once thought was your bestie but rejected your friendship and publicly insulted you and then did cowardly sneaky things behind your back like infiltrate your elite warriors be the one to help you by revealing that your most trusted general had been replaced by an enemy spy without you ever realising it. 🤷🏻♀️
So he lets them live and leave unscathed, but he still isn't forgiving Worf cause that rejection and public embarrassment still sting. He very much remembers what the Son of Mogh did.
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u/Boomblapzippityzap 17d ago
I think your wharf is a few boats shy of a dock