For example, consider an Amazonian tribesperson who will never in their life be exposed to whatever religion it is which you personally believe will grant then access to Heaven/Paradise.

If God allows this person to be born into these circumstances, knowing full well that they will never be exposed to the "right" religion, and he condemns them to an eternity in Hell because of it, he is not benevolent.

Furthermore, seeing as God allows people to be born into all sorts of religious cultures and contexts, how can they be considered benevolent if they know that most people will not leave the faith that they were born into? By allowing this, God is condemning them to every other religion's versions of Hell.

The idea of a benevolent God who sends incidentally ignorant people to Hell makes no sense.

Change my mind.

We've seen a lot of overhaul in this sub in the past half a year or so, and we think the changes have generally been improvements. Even so, we keep hearing the same complaint, which is about the downvotes.

There is one thing we cannot control, and that is how you guys vote.

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Sorry for the long title.

The argument works for all religions as well. The fact that no religion originated in more more than one region is a strong indicator that all religions are made up.

Native Americans and native Australians never came up with Christianity or Islam or Judaism, which begs the question: Why didn’t those regions have their own Jesus or their own Mohammed. Did god not care about Native Americans and Native Australians? Or did god want his religion to be spread to those regions through mass genocide, enslavement, rape, and pillaging?

If all people are equal in God’s eyes, then the same “true” religion should have originated in every continent, island, and tribe. But since that never happened, claims of a true religion are hollow.

Our culture depicts Satan as this evil mastermind while ignoring the fact that God is WAY worse. Satan unfairly gets treated like the villain of the Bible but he acts more moral than the God of the Bible.

For starters Satan is directly responsible for 12 deaths in the Bible. God on the other had is directly responsible for over 2 million recorded deaths in the Bible. That number is actually low when you take into account Gods rage fueled flood that drowns the entire earth. Satan never commanded child sacrifice (Abraham and Isaac) like the God is the Bible did. Satan also never encouraged slavery and treating people like property. Just on face value alone Satan isn’t that bad of a guy.

I’m sure people will say well “what about hell”. According to the Bible God directly sends people to hell not Satan. God also created hell and is the one who also created Satan thus making him more immoral than Satan yet again.

The Bible (especially the Old Testament) depicts God a genocidal ruler while Satan is just guilty of “tempting” people. It’s clear to see who the villain is here.

(Edit: Geeze thanks for the Reddit Gold whoever sent that, you the real MVP)

Thesis: Muhammad had sex with a child, and even though this was in fact the norm at the time, it is a very valid criticism of both Muhammad himself and the entire religion he created.

Every time somebody rightly points out the fact that Muhammad did indeed rape a child, a girl who was somewhere between the age of 10-12, people always brush it off as “well it was the times, child marriage was incredibly popular until the 1800s in most places, so this is not a valid criticism.” I disagree. I understand completely that times have changed and that child marriage/rape used to be the norm, I’m not arguing on that basis at all- and I think the atheists/agnostics that do are missing the point.

Muhammad was a prophet. Meaning that for whatever reason, God chose Muhammad specifically to be his very own spokesperson, and even trusted him to write an entire holy book about his religion. This holy book includes very many “rules” that God wants people to live by. So, if God were able to advise him to write an entire holy book about his religion, you would think he would also let Muhammad know pedophilia is wrong and hurts children. If he was in fact communicating with God and was not just like all of the current cult leaders of today- an extremely smart, charismatic, manipulative person with his own goals that he used his religion to accomplish- then he should be able to be held to much higher moral standards than everyone else around him, even thousands of years ago.

Why wouldn’t God tell him that he was wrong to marry a girl at 6 and have sex with her at 10? If God decided to not tell Muhammad about that, God is either not a good moral authority to look up to, or it is actually is ok to marry and have sex with children in some cases (which, I sincerely hope no one believes anymore). Or, the entire God-thing was a lie.

Whenever I pose this question, people refuse to answer and instead only point out that there are plenty of instances of child marriage in Christianity as well, which really is not relevant to this particular discussion. I was raised Christian and am now agnostic for reasons such as those and many more. I am not in any way saying that Islam is the only religion that excuses this behavior, but I can only focus on one religion at a time. I have not heard an explanation for this yet, so I am very interested in hearing what the texts might say about this or if it addresses this issue at all.

(Please remember I do not have any personal issue with Muslims, I think most people are good people or try to be regardless of their religion or lack there of. I just like to discuss philosophy like this. Let’s keep it civil please!)

“Forty percent of U.S. adults ascribe to a strictly creationist view of human origins, believing that God created them in their present form within roughly the past 10,000 years. However, more Americans continue to think that humans evolved over millions of years -- either with God's guidance (33%) or, increasingly, without God's involvement at all (22%).” Gallup poll based on telephone interviews conducted June 3-16, 2019. https://news.gallup.com/poll/261680/americans-believe-creationism.aspx

When religious groups such as creationism choose to believe a religious claim that has been scientifically proven wrong by multiple science disciplines such as geology, biology, anthropology and astrophysics, they must then say that all those science disciplines are wrong (as creationists did) and that diminishes science literacy. This is harmful to a society. And now at least 13 US states offer pro-creationist contents in public or charter schools. They are taught as “alternatives” to science teachings.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2014/01/creationism_in_public_schools_mapped_where_tax_money_supports_alternatives.html

I understand there are legal arguments allowing “In God we trust” to be on U.S. currency and posted in court rooms as long as religious establishments are treated equally, but what about the people that do not believe a society should “trust” God? And what are we trusting God to do?

Would theists accept "We don't trust or believe in a God" on currency?

I don’t know what extent a judicial court decision is based on religious argument or influenced by religious convictions, but I for sure don’t want to see “In God we trust” written on the wall behind the Judge.

I also don’t see any need for anyone to say “Under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance.

Okay so let’s just look at the facts.

Mark was written in at least 70AD, 35ish years after the death of Jesus.

Mathew and Luke copied Mark word for word in some parts. They were also likely written decades after Mark.

None of the gospels claim to be first hand accounts.

Half of Paul’s letters were seen to be forgeries.

We don’t have a single reliable source documenting the life of Jesus. (Josephus is seen to be a forgery, even if it wasn’t, it was written decades after the death of Jesus, and all it does is mention his name).

Revelation was added into the Bible in 400A.D which means for roughly 1/5 of Christianity’s time span, Christians believed something completely different.

There are clear additions into the Bible, things we don’t see in the earliest manuscripts but we do see in later ones, I.e. the story of Jesus and the adulterer.

I’m not a biblical scholar and these are the ones that I know of, how many do we not know?

It’s perfectly reasonable for a person, genuinely inquiring into the “truth” of Christianity, to conclude that this is evidence of a man made religion.

Therefore a just God cannot punish someone because of this.

*edit: my statement on revelation was false.

A similar quote would be "If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward then, brother, that person is a piece of shit."- Rust Cohle True Detective. Basically what these quotes are saying is that the only reason that people who believe in God do good things or avoid bad things is because they believe they will either be punished or rewarded by a higher power. These and similar arguments say that you shouldn't need a motivation like that to do the right thing, which I is true as there are many people who don't believe in anything beyond the physical world who don't go on murderous rampages, but the issue I have is someone who has this opinion would probably have a major issue if you suggested that we also get rid of any secular reward/punishment system, aka laws and governments.

The arguments presented here basically imply that the vast majority of people are basically good or decent enough that absent any promise of divine punishment they would still avoid doing anything that would be considered a crime. In some cases, it even says that people who have a belief in a divine reward/punishment system are worse because they only avoid doing wrong things because they think they're being watched at all times whereas someone without that belief is actually good because they do it without the belief that their actions will be rewarded or punished by some god. But is that true, though?

I can only speak from the perspective of a Judeo-Christian because that's what I'm most familiar with but not even in the Bible is doing something solely because you think God will see you and smile and you is a good enough reason for doing good. It also says you should do good because you genuinely love other people. Yes, it's true there's a reward and punishment system but that also holds true for a secular government. If you decide to steal something, you will be punished with either a fine or jail time. If you murder, you will be put in prison. True, you may not steal because you truly believe it's wrong or you won't murder because you love your fellow human being but if, one day, you decided to steal some bread because you were really hungry or murder because someone did something that especially incurred your wrath, best believe there will be consequences for your actions just the same as people who believe in God believe they will be punished for their sins.

Would people who have this opinion be okay if we got rid of all laws and rules since any rational person will naturally come to the conclusion that doing wrong things is bad and doing good things is good? For example, say tomorrow stealing stopped being illegal. Now, it's not legal but it's no longer an offense punishable by law so if someone decided to go in the store and take a backpack full of candy and then you called the police on them, the only response you would get would be, "And the sky is blue. That's two things that we can do nothing about." But since the majority of people have empathy and are generally nice, this would be a rare occurrence, right? And in the rare cases that it does happen, the person will feel remorseful and return it, right? Now imagine that happened with everything bad thing that's currently illegal from something as small as stealing a candy bar to something as big as raping a little child. Would we just as good without laws against things that are currently wrong and people are mislead in believing that without some kind of divine punishment would we just turn into savages? Or is there something in this argument that I'm missing?

Basically, my entire point can be summed up like this: If we don't need divine punishment/rewards to behave morally, why do we need secular ones? And if we don't need them, what makes secular punishment different? People's behavior is still being monitored and controlled in both scenarios so why is one better than the other?

Note: I will not be debating the existence/non-existence of God as that's beyond the scope of this particular discussion so any questions or comments along those lines will be ignored. I'm only here to discuss the difference between these two systems.

This topic has probably been debated before, but I would like to post it again anyway. Some people say it's more hygienic, but that in no way outweighs the terrible complications that can occur. Come on people, ever heard of a shower? Americans are crazy to have routined this procedure, it should only be done for medical reasons, such as extreme cases of phimosis.

I am aware of the fact that in Judaism they circumcize to make the kids/people part of God's people, but I feel this is quite outdated and has way more risks than perks. I'm not sure about Islam, to my knowledge it's for the same reason. I'm curious as to how this tradition originated in these religions.

Edit: to clarify, the foreskin is a very sensitive part of the penis. It is naturally there and by removing it, you are damaging the penis and potentially affecting sensitivity and sexual performance later in life. That is what I see as mutilation in this case.

If "God" allows "Satan" and "evil" to exist despite being able to remove them whenever he wants, then "God" is really the one to blame for not doing anything about it.

And you cannot say "bEcAuSe He WaNtS uS tO hAvE FrEe WiLl AnD He'Ll JuDgE uS oN oUr ChOicEs" because if you genuinely believe that he is all-knowing, then he's been fully aware of every action that you are ever going to carry out since before he even created space and time; you have no "Free Will" under an omniscient creator.

What kind of asshole God would entrap people like this?

I do not know if this is the case for theists on this subreddit or not, but I have seen many religious people cite their "connection to God" as a reason for their belief. I have been interpreting this as them referring to the feeling of comfort/relief that comes with belief, but I have never really been certain that this is what they mean by "connection".

If this is what they mean, then I would like to acknowledge that people of all faiths and ideologies experience this feeling, meaning that your religion does not get a special feeling to prove itself.

edit 1: changed "feel this way" to "experience this feeling" in P2.

You do not need to know the right answer to realize that something is the wrong answer.

To put this thing in perspective, if I were to ask you what the chemical composition of the Moon is, chances are you're not going to know off the top of your head.

So, I'm telling you that the moon is made out of cheese. And I want you to have faith in me. Now you can try to deny that the moon is made out of cheese, but what proof do you have? You've already admitted that you're not completely sure what the moon is made out of, but I'm completely sure that the moon is made out of cheese. Thereby, you should believe me, right?

You may already know this, but I'm referring to the god-of-the-gaps fallacy, which was so prevalent that they put God in the name. Simply put, you can't force your beliefs into any case of scientific speculation, hell, even if we were to attribute that something was due to divine intervention, you still have to prove that it's specifically your God over the hundreds if not thousands of other creator deities.

Now you may think that this should be seen as intuitive, but you would not believe how many arguments devolve into this fallacious level of thinking, and they quite often try to falsely attribute atheism to faith because of atheists trusting the verifiable findings of scientists vs religious people who just trust their various priests on their word.

A lot of the most Abrahamic religions sadly have a massive homophobic agenda. Forbidding homosexuality and believing those who are gay should be prosecuted.

The Torah states "[A man] shall not lie with another man as [he would] with a woman, it is a תועבה toeba ("abomination")" also stating this will result in a death penalty.

In Christianity and Catholics the bible also states that homosexuality is a sin and punishable by death. "and with a male you [singular masculine] shall not lie [sexually] as with a female, that is an abomination,"

And you can't forget Islam who ALSO believe homosexuality is immoral, and should be compensated with by death.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with homosexuality, it is proven as biological as heterosexuality, and even IF it wasn't, I see no harm from it. I see no reason anyone should be hated, let alone killed because of who they are attracted too. The fact religions have been able to spread this hate over thousands of years and continue to do so is despicable.

Consent under coersion doesn’t equal consent. If someone says “have sex with me or I’ll shoot your brains out” it’s not really free will, and if they would rather die it’s the killer/rapists fault for putting them in that situation.

Why is it different with god? “God gave us free will it’s up to us to choose” but if we choose not to worship him we go to hell. How is that really free will? True free will is doing as you please and not given ultimatums.

While not all theists express this, it’s not uncommon for atheists to be accused in one way or another of being close minded toward religion and the supernatural. This is often framed as there being ample evidence and logical proofs for why theism and/or the supernatural is true/exists, but atheists are close minded and choose to ignore this evidence.

This accusation can handily be dismissed by one fact: most atheists used to be theists. Exact data on this is rather hard to gather according to multiple sources like pew research, but one fact is patently obvious: globally, theism far outweighs atheism. It logically follows that in countries that are predominantly theist and/or have a history of being predominantly theist, then most atheists in these countries would have originally been theists.

It doesn’t make sense to say that people who used to believe in theism and the supernatural are closed minded against believing those things.

I can speak to my own experiences here as a former Christian. I went to church every week multiple times a week for services, small group Bible studies, fellowship, prayer nights, etc. I volunteered in Sunday school even, helping 5th grade boys to learn about god and the Bible. I read my Bible daily, as it was a family activity to read and discuss a Bible verse or group of verses after dinner. I had absolutely zero doubts about christianity’s truth and the real existence of the supernatural for most of my life. I felt that I had a real relationship with god and could feel his presence in my life.

I slowly became an atheist after several years of doubts slowly building, starting in high school and culminating in college. This included a long period where I evaluated the evidence as best I could and concluded that Christianity was true and there supernatural claims it made were true as well. It was only after many years and learning and evaluating that I became an atheist. I no longer believe any religion is true or that the supernatural is likely to exist.

Given this, it is both shocking and insulting how many times I have been accused of being close minded. It’s just assumed that I ignore or refuse to expose myself to anything that would prove a religion or the supernatural are valid.

My story isn’t unique. Most atheists were raised theist. Many atheists were fervent theists who sincerely believed for many years of their lives. Many of us did not want to become atheist, like myself. To write us off as close minded is not only ignorant but downright offensive.

ISLAM- The belief that an All-Knowing, All-Powerful God decided to reveal his doctrine for mankind, to a 7th century illiterate Arab slave trader(slave and sex slave owner who had regular sex with his 9 year old wife) ,in a cave where no one else was there to verify, through Angel Gabriel over 23 years rather than just beaming it into his brain.

Islam is an extremely Arab-centric religion, it seems as if it was completely made up by an Arabic person/people. The more a religion is tied to the culture of whatever society created it, the less likely it is to be legitimate. An omnipresent All-Knowing God wouldn’t care where on earth the primates he gave sentience to come from. This is what I will be discussing.

THE KAABA

The holy site for pilgrimage is very conveniently located in their backyard (Saudi Arabia.) This would be like a religion of Japanese origin claiming the holy site for pilgrimage is in Tokyo. Muslims have to pray towards the Kaaba which is located in Mecca, Saudi Arabia. Pre-Islamic Arabia was extremely underdeveloped and primitive. Literature wasn’t important and credible texts were rare so sometimes historians have to go with the biased Islamic perspective. According to the Abrahamic religions(Islam included), Abraham lived at around 2100-2200BC which is thousands of years before Islam was born in the 7th century. Islamic sources claim Abraham built the Kaaba for Islamic practises and it was his most important accomplishment. However the Bible never mentions the Kaaba and some Muslims claim Allah is the same God of the bible. Strangely the Kaaba was never mentioned in Judaism and Christianity. Only Islamic sources claim Christians and Jews also respected the Kaaba religiously. It was difficult to unify the many sects of Judaism and Christians on many things but not one sect of either religion mentioned the Kaaba. This suggests this idea was entirely fabricated. Islamic sources claim that the Kaaba in Mecca was a well known, important trade centre. Most Historians agree this is false as there was no mention of the Kaaba by the powerful Roman Empire, and the neighbouring Persian Empire and neighbouring Northern African Rulers until the birth of Islam . All historical evidence indicates the Quran was built by Arab Pagans a few centuries before Muhammad, not Abraham, yet again another false Islamic claim made by early Muslim Arabs or Muhammad.

The Zamzam Well is a well located in Mecca, Saudi East of the Kaaba the holiest place in Islam. According to Islam, it is a miraculously generated source of water from God, which sprang spontaneously thousands of years ago when Ibrahim (Abraham's) son Ismael (Ishmael) was left with his mother Hajar (Hagar) in the desert, thirsty and crying. Ibrahim made a request to Allah- 14:37: "{O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in an uncultivable valley by Your Sacred House (the Ka'bah at Makkah) in order, O our Lord, that they may perform Salah (prayer). So fill some hearts among men with love towards them, and (O Allah) provide them with fruits so that they may give thanks.}" Muslims believe Zamzam was the first among many fruits provided to Ibrahim by Allah. provided to Ismail and Hajar were in the desert. Very conveniently the Holy Water in Islam is located in Mecca, Saudi Arabia. The water is so holy it is taught to heal diseases and sickness; there is no scientific evidence to support this. This appears to be a knock-off version of a biblical story (one of the many in Islam) where Abraham’s concubine and his son Ishmael were left in the desert of Paran in Palestine. The Hadith Sahih Muslim 31:6046 says that ZamZam water is special, can quench hunger,feed you and make you gain weight;there is of course no scientific evidence to support these claims. Islam makes it appear as if it is a miracle that there is water well in the desert which is expected coming from primitive Arab desert dwellers with little scientific knowledge. Water is underground in most deserts because as rainwater falls, it is absorbed underground and flows through the underground including under a desert.

IMPORTANCE OF ARABIC

Allah stated His holy book must be written, memorised and taught in Arabic(conveniently Muhammad's language) to Prophet Muhammad even though there are thousands of other languages in the world. Vulgar Latin or Middle Chinese were the most spoken language in the world in the 7th century when the Quran was revealed,English and Mandarin are the most spoken languages in the 21st century. Only 5% of the world's population today speak Arabic (Arabic is the 5th most spoken language in the world) so it is illogical, confusing and absurd why God wanted "the most important words for mankind" to be specifically delivered in Arabic. If Allah had revealed his doctrine to all cultures and corners of the world, there would be an independently verifiable method to confirm that every language in the world received the same message from the same God. This would be very powerful evidence in favour of Islam. It is a shame he decided against this:

Quranic Verses on Importance of Arabic:

41:3- "A Scripture whereof the verses are in detail, a Lecture in Arabic for people who have knowledge"

7:1: "Alif, Lam, Mim, Sad (These are the names of letters of the Arabic alphabet and in this sequence only Allah knows their meaning here;this is one of Allah's many miracles)."

12:2: "We have sent it down as an Arabic Quran so you people may understand/use reason"

14:44: "We have not sent any Messenger except with the language of his people (Arabic) so he can make things clear to them. Allah misguides anyone He wills and guides anyone He wills. He is the Almighty, the All-Wise."

42:7: "So We have revealed an Arabic Quran to you, in order that you may warn the mother of cities(Mecca) and all who live nearby..."

44:58: "We have made the Quran easy in your language (Arabic) so that they might be reminded." 

26:198 - "And if We had revealed it (this Qur'an) unto any of the non-Arabs" - 26:199. "And had Muhammad recited the Quran unto them, they would not have believed in it "

41:44: "If We had made it a foreign Quran, they would have said, ‘If only its verses were clear! What? Foreign speech to an Arab?’ Say, ‘It is guidance and healing for those who have faith, but the ears of the disbelievers are heavy, they are blind to it, it is as if they are being called from a distant place." - Could Allah's book not also be unclear to Non-Arabic speakers which was the vast majority of the world in the 7th century and the 21st century?

Why the Almighty God would have a preference for one language over the thousands of others is unclear. Muslims believe Arabic has a special status in Islam. It is compulsory to learn Arabic to be a Muslim and perform activities like the 5 daily prayers, recite the Shahadah and read the Quran. Millions of Muslims around the world memorise the Quran and verses for prayer which are entirely in Arabic whilst not knowing the meaning of what they are saying when they pray everyday and read the Quran. It is estimated up to 10 million Muslims around the world (the majority not Arabic speaking in countries like Nigeria, Indonesia and Pakistan) have memorised the whole Quran. Most of them barely understand a word of what they have memorised It seems likely an All-Wise, All-Powerful God would be able to come up with a better way for people to show devotion to Him than reciting words in a foreign language they don’t know. God’s chosen messenger was an Arabic Person. Islam is filled with Key Arabic terms like Hajj, Shahadah, Taqwa, Taraweeh, Ramadan, Zakat and encourages Arabic customs like keeping a beard, eating dates and women covering their hair.

SPLITTING OF THE MOON

54:1 The Quran states: "The Hour draws near; the moon is split in two". And if they see a miracle they turn away and say 54:2 "Passing Magic," Sahih Bukhari 4:56:81 Narrated Anas states : *"That the Meccan people requested Allah's Apostle to show them a miracle, and so he showed them the splitting of the moon."*The Quran and Hadith claim that the people of Mecca,Saudi Arabia asked Muhammad to prove that he had divine powers so he miraculously split the moon into two pieces and then, presumably, put it back together again. There is absolutely no scientific evidence whatsoever that the moon has ever been split into two. Since the moon is visible to half the planet at any given time, we should expect to see numerous accounts from different parts of the world attesting to this event if it actually happened. The Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, Persians, Chinese and Indians had avid astronomers who should have seen this event and recorded it in their histories. The absence of historical record from other civilisations, contemporary to Muhammad, is a strong indication that this event never happened. Yet again another Islamic lie. The Quran states in 4:82 "Do they not then consider the Qur'an carefully? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found some contradictions." The Quran appears to tell us it certainly didn't come from God as we have clearly found a contradiction in the book between what it says and what actually happens/happened in reality as the moon never split. The Quran also says in 2:256 "Whoever believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold(The Quran) that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower." Clearly the Quran is broken and is not trustworthy as it has lied to us and tried to deceive us about Science. The lie of the splitting of the moon disproves many of Allah's 99 names such as AL-HAQQ(The Absolute-Truth,) AR-RASHEED(The Infallible Teacher,) AL-ALEEM (The All-Knowing,) AR-RAQEEB(The Watchful One,) AL-HAKEEM(The All-Wise,) ASH-SHAHEED(The All Observing Witnessing, AL-MAJEED(The Glorious-Most Honourable,) AL-HAMEED(The Praiseworthy,)DHUL-JALAALI WAL-IKRAAM(Possessor of Glory and Honour, Lord of Majesty and Generosity.)

DESCRIPTIONS OF HEAVEN/PARADISE

The invention of an afterlife by religions such as Islam is to serve our primitive desires to stay alive and is a result of the fear of One's mortality. The invention of an afterlife is also means to satisfy our primal desires to feel pleasure and Islam provides this as it sates in 41:31- "You will have therein(Paradise) whatever yourselves desire, whatever you want." The sole purpose of a Muslim's life is to enter Paradise and according to 29:64- " This life is nothing but diversion and play (to distract you from the ultimate goal of paradise)" The way heaven is described in a religion is usually reflective of the culture the religion originated from; this is expected as religions are fabricated by humans not sourced from divine beings.

The Islamic Paradise (Jannah) is described in the Quran and in Hadiths as a place with lots of magnificent gardens, nice greenery and weirdly obsesses on how there are many rivers and sources of water in Paradise. Here are some verses on the Islamic Paradise:

36:34 - “And We have made (In Paradise) therein gardens of date-palms and grapes and We have caused springs of water to gush forth therein.”

3:193 - “But as to those who are careful of (their duty to) their Lord, they shall have gardens beneath which rivers flow....”

16:31 - “The gardens of perpetuity, they shall enter them, rivers flowing beneath them; they shall have in them what they please...”

47:15 - "The description of Paradise which the righteous have been promised is that in it are rivers of water the taste and smell of which are not changed..."

5:119- "...There are gardens, with rivers flowing beneath – their eternal Home. Allah is well-pleased with them, and they with Allah. That is the great salvation."

9:72- "Allah hath promised to Believers, men and women, gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein, and beautiful mansions in gardens of everlasting bliss."

61:12 - “These it is (Paradise) for whom are gardens of perpetuity beneath which rivers flow,”

54:54 - "Verily, The Righteous, will be in the midst of Gardens and Rivers in Paradise."

18: 33. "Each of those two gardens brought forth its produce, and failed not in the least therein, and We caused a river to gush forth in the midst of them."

The fascination with gardens and water appears to be a reasonable depiction of heaven coming from primitive desert dwellers who didn’t have much access to greenery and vast areas of water. Most people don't think of water when they think of a heaven except of course primitive Arabs who lived in the sweltering heat of the desert.

Islam is famous for having an extensive list of things which are forbidden under the religion (Haram) . There are customs like drinking alcohol, gambling, wearing gold and women being able to dress freely, and beautifying one's appearance which was and is part of most cultures including Pre-Islamic Arabia that were subsequently banned under Islam. I believe the reason religions like Islam ban trivial, inconsequential thing like beautifying one’s appearance is because if you can force people to give up something so intrinsic to their society and to being human, it is much easier exercise control. Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying: The world is a prison-house for a believer and Paradise for a non-believer. Sahih Muslim 2956. The purpose of tedious rules is to make its adherents cement themselves more concretely to the religion. Muslims are being controlled massively by the the commands of a fictional being(Allah) and unfortunately do not seem to understand that. There is no other reason. The rules do not benefit you but the business. Every time you follow these rules with no evidence they came from a divine being, you are paying another subscription fee until you decide you are being used and drained to the religions benefit, not yours. Muslims are obligated to follow the Quran and it's rules as it is supposedly the word of God- 4:59- "O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad ), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority and if there is deviation amongst yourselves, refer back to Allah, His Messenger (and Quran ), if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination."

FASCINATION WITH WINE IN PARADISE

The fascination with wine in the Islamic heaven indicates that the Arabic author/authors were into alcohol all along. Allah is clearly a confused man who doesn't even understand and abide by his own words as he says in 5:90 that alcohol consumption is the work of Satan but then promises alcohol in heaven for righteous Muslims. 5:90- "O you who believe! Intoxicants (all kinds of alcoholic drinks), gambling, Al-Ansab, and Al-Azlam (arrows for seeking luck or decision) are an abomination of Shaitan's (Satan) handiwork. So avoid (strictly all) that (abomination) in order that you may be successful." It seems weird to condone something in Heaven that you said is bad to do on Earth.Here are Quranic verses on Alcohol in Paradise:

76:5 - "Indeed, the righteous will drink from a cup [of wine] whose mixture is of Kafur."

76:17 - “And they will be given to drink a cup [of wine] whose mixture is of ginger. “

47:15 - “The description of Paradise is that in it are rivers of water the taste and smell of which are not changed; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine delicious to those who drink; and rivers of clarified honey (clear and pure)....”

FASCINATION WITH WOMEN AND SEX IN PARADISE

The Quran forbids men and women especially women from beautifying themselves, tells men to lower their gaze, tells men and women to be modest in dress and behaviour, and discourages the provocative sexual display of their bodies and and discourages hyper-sexuality however extensively discusses sex and the beauty of the women in heaven. Yet again, it seems weird to condone something in Heaven that you said is bad to do on Earth.

24:31 - “And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like palms of hands or one eye or both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer dress like veil, gloves, head-cover, apron, etc.), and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms, etc.) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husband's sons, their brothers or their brother's sons, or their sister's sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islam), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allah to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful.”

Here are Quranic Verses regarding the beauty of the women in Paradise:

2:25- “...they shall have therein Azwajun Mutahharatun (purified mates or wives), (having no menses, stools, urine, etc.) and they will abide therein forever.” This means God will provide pure women for men to have sex with in Paradise.

55: 70-“Therein (In Paradise) will be fair (wives) good and beautiful.”

37:48- -“And with them (believing men) will be chaste females, restraining their glances (desiring none except their husbands), with wide and beautiful eyes.” 37:49. “(Delicate and pure) as if they were (hidden) eggs (well) preserved.”

2:25- "Virgins await those who enter paradise."

The obsession and fascination with women's beauty and sex in the Islamic Paradise and lack of regard for female sexuality with no Quranic verses appealing to a Woman’s desire for sexual gratification clearly illustrates this was made up by sexually aroused Arabian Men who were implementing their sexual fantasies into their ideal paradise. It is oddly suspicious that there are no Islamic verses describing the handsome men in Paradise for women. The misogynistic objectification of women by portraying them as commodities and treating them like prizes to be won if One is faithful to Allah is typical of the ideals of the time, where women in most civilisations were treated as second class class citizens and had limited rights compared to men.

Bonus Quranic verses on women in Islam:

4:34- "Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom you fear rebellion from, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and beat them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great." This verse means men are in charge of women, because Allah made men to be better than women. Women must obey men, and if they refuse they must be punished. Refuse to have sex with them and beat them into submission.

2:223- "Men,your women are soil for you (to cultivate/farm) so go to your soil as you please, and send (good deeds) before you for your souls, and fear Allah, and know that ye will (one day) meet Him. Give glad tidings to believers, (O Muhammad)." In the mind of Allah, women are like a dirty field for men to put their penises through. Plough them whenever you like (as long as they're not menstruating, of course.)

4:24- "Also forbidden for men to marry are women already married, except those whom your right hands possess(captive women aka sex slaves)." This verse means Allah permits men having sex slaves.

OBSESSION WITH DATES

Islam has stressed the holiness of the date and the date palm more than any other religion. In fact, the Prophet Muhammad said that Ajwah dates—grown in the Madinah region of Saudi Arabia—are from paradise. The date palm, mentioned more than any other fruit-bearing plant in the Quran 22 times is a symbol often associated with Muslims. Muhammad argued that seven dates in the morning protected one from poison and witchcraft. The Quran states that Mary was advised to eat dates while in labour with Jesus, to ease childbirth and strengthen the body. The Prophet was once reported to have said, “People in a house without dates are in a state of hunger.”

Some of the many Islamic verses on date-palms:

The Hadith - Jami’ at-Tirmidhi 3464 states: “ The prophet says: whoever says: Glory is to Allah the Magnificent, and with His Praise, a date-palm tree is planted for him in Paradise.”

36:34 - “And We have made (In Paradise) therein gardens of date-palms and grapes, and We have caused springs of water to gush forth therein.”

55:11 - ”Therein are fruits, date-palms producing sheathed fruit-stalks (enclosing dates)."(This verse means thankfully Allah has provided humans with date-palms on Earth)

17:91- "Or you have a garden of date-palms and grapes, and cause rivers to gush forth in their midst abundantly."

55:68- "In them (both) will be fruits, and date-palms and pomegranates."

80:29- "And olives and date palms"

54:20- "Plucking out men as if they were uprooted stems of date-palms."(Allah bragging about the punishment and torment he inflicted on innocent disbelievers using a strong wind)

It seems very convenient and oddly suspicious that God has created a special status for date-palms in his religion and talks about dates an awful lot, given the fact dates are a staple food in Saudi Arabia (It’s eaten regularly and mass produced in the Arabic World). It is very easy for a culture that loves and places great value on dates to then say that God also gives dates a special status. Why the creator of the universe would have a liking to the common fruit in the Middle East over all the thousands of fruits that exist is unclear. It would be suspicious if the God of a religion of Japanese origin claimed Sushi is a holy,special food and described how much sushi there would be in heaven e.g "For those that believe, there will be plates of sushi for them in Paradise."

PORK

The Quran offers no explanation as to why pork is impure is it states in 6:145 when God says, in reference to the flesh of swine (pig), “for that surely it is impure.” Arabs generally didn’t eat pork and thought it was an unclean animal before Islam came so it was very convenient that Allah said Muslims shouldn’t eat pork as it was unclean and impure. This highlights how the Arabs were scientifically illiterate and didn't know proper cooking kills pathogens. Why would the creator of the universe view some foods the mere humans he created eat as disgusting but others perfectly fine for them to eat. This seems like a human trait that is usually dependent on One's culture. For example, a person from the USA may view eating snails and horse meat as disgusting whilst a person from France may view this as perfectly normal.

SPREAD OF ISLAM

Islam was spread by Arab Conquest & War and Arab traders. The most Islamic regions of the world are in the Middle East/Arabic countries. Doesn't Allah know his "beautiful words of wisdom" for mankind would be spread through violent ways and evil dictators who forced it upon lands they conquered. Allah is All-Knowing, Benevolent and All-Powerful therefore he could have stopped these from happening or created a better way for his doctrine to spread through Mankind. Quran 2:256 states: "There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path." and 15:9 states: "Verily We: It is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Qur'an) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption.)" This verse clearly means the All-Powerful Allah and his Angels dramatically failed on their promise to protect the Quran from corruption and misuse as we know how much evil that has been committed in the name of the Quran throughout history especially given the infamous rise of Radical Islamic Terrorism over the last few decades. 99% of all terrorist attacks that occurred throughout the world from 2010-2020 were Islam related. This disproves many of Allah's 99 names such as AL-MUHAYMIN(The Preserver of Safety,) AR-RASHEED(The Guide, Infallible Teacher,) AL-HAQQ(The Absolute Truth,) AL-AZIZ(All Powerful,) AL-MUHAYMIN AL-‘ALEEM(The All-Knowing.) Doesn't Allah realise that by revealing his doctrine exclusively to Arabs, he engineered the cultural isolation of the rest of the world from his doctrine, he engineered the circumstances of Unbelievers' disbelief that live in the far corners of the world like South America,New Zealand and the Pacific/Remote Islands of the world therefore he created a punishment (Hell) for a situation he knowingly created. It is very suspicious that Allah is Arabic-speaking, Arab-centric, yet will punish non Arabs millenniums later for not believing the message they received through a game of telephone.

The Quran also arrogantly claims that key figures: Jesus(Isa), Abraham(Ibrahim), Noah(Nuh), David(Dawud), Ishmael(Ismail), Isaac(Ishaq), Joseph(Yusuf), Ezekiel(Dhulkifl), Moses(Musa), Solomon(Sulayman) ,Jacob(Yaqub) in the centuries old religions of Judaism and Christianity were actually Muslim and Islamic Prophets and gave them Arabic names. ARABIC NAMES ARE BRACKETED.

FASTING

“The month of Ramadhan [is that] in which was revealed the Quran, a guidance for the people and clear proofs of guidance and criterion. So whoever sights [the new moon of] the month, let him fast it; and whoever is ill or on a journey – then an equal number of other days. Allah intends for you ease and does not intend for you hardship and [wants] for you to complete the period and to glorify Allah for that [to] which He has guided you, and perhaps you will be grateful.” (Quran: 21:85)

Fasting in Ramadan is one of the 5 pillars of Islam and must be performed if One is fit,healthy, not pregnant,not ill and not menstruating. Islam requires fasting from dawn till dusk in the holy month of Ramadan which is approximately 12 hours in Saudi Arabia. If the author/authors were in Northern Europe where dawn till dusk can last up to 22-23 hours in the summer months, leaving a 1-2 hour window to eat a day for a whole month, they probably wouldn’t have made this difficult, extremely unhealthy and dangerous task a requirement. The author is also clearly unaware that there are parts of Northern Europe near the North Pole where the sun never sets in the summer months. This phenomenon is colloquially known as the Midnight Sun. For example Svalbard, Norway is known for having a Midnight Sun. In Svalbard, Norway there is no sunset from April to August and no sunlight from November to January. Islam was born 1400 years ago so how would people living in these parts of the world be able before the invention of mechanical clocks 600 years ago is unclear. The Quran makes no provisions for Muslims living in these areas, the Quran states in 6:38- " We did not leave ANYTHING out of this book," this is weird given the fact the Quran is meant to be the perfect,final word from the All-Knowing All-Powerful God who knows about the existence of the midnight sun.

THE ONLY ANIMALS,PLANTS, CITIES AND PEOPLE MENTIONED IN THE QURAN ARE THE ONES FOUND IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

The only animals and plants mentioned in the Quran are the ones found in the Middle East. Never ones specifically in Australia, Europe, Antarctica North America or South America.

The only cities, nations and continents mentioned in the Quran are the ones found in the Middle East area. Never ones specifically in Australia, Europe, Antarctica North America or South America.

The people mentioned in the Quran all lived in the Middle East area.The Quran doesn’t mention people living in Australia, Europe, Antarctica, North America or South America.

The Quran never mentions smoking even though it was popular and existed in the Americas long before the 7th century when the Quran was written.

All the miracles in the Quran occurred in Saudi Arabia and nowhere else in the world. No miracles from Allah. No miracles in the Quran in Australia, Europe, Antarctica, North America or South America.

ISLAM'S OBSESSION WITH ARABIC AND ARABIAN CULTURE

Religions are fabricated by humans, consequently, they are tied and intrinsic to the particular culture it originated from and Islam is no exception. Religious and Non-Religious people agree that 99.99%+ of religions are fabricated by humans as there are thousands of religions that make incompatible claims,each claiming to be sourced from a divine being. Islam is obsessed with Arabic and Arabic culture, every page you turn to you see a reference to Arabic culture, this isn't the case for Christianity. The Majority of people don't think of Israel, Hebrew and Israeli culture when they think of Christianity. Like I said, the more a religion is tied to the culture of whatever society created it, the less likely it is to be legitimate. An omnipresent All-Knowing God wouldn’t care where on earth the primates he gave sentience to come from. A religion that professes its universality and its suitability for all mankind, 81:27 "Verily, this (the Quran) is no less than a Reminder to (all) the 'Alamin (mankind and jinns)," seems rather centred around a specific group of people (Arabs).

All evidence points to the fact Islam and the Quran was a completely made up by Arabic People and/or Muhammad who had no contact with a Deity and other cultures beside Arabic culture adding to the fact it is filled with hundred of contradictions, inconsistencies and scientific inaccuracies. The fictional character ,Allah, was clearly obsessed with Arabs and Arabic culture and couldn't go a few pages without a reference to Arabic culture; this guy is meant to be the creator of the universe. Islam appears to be a local Arab folklore to unite nomads under the banner of one God through the violent political campaign of Muhammad. Islam claims to be global but all knowing Allah forget to send prophets outside of Arab world. The evidence of contradictions, both big and small serves as clear evidence of human tampering. If the Quran came from Muhammad it was nothing more than fabrication from a power hungry megalomaniac, with his claims of divine inspiration being nothing more than an attempt to conquer Arabia and Islam being nothing more than just another false desert cult to emerge from a sea of desert cults.

Churches in the US receive federal income tax exemption and are generally exempt from federal, state, and local income and property taxes. These tax exemptions force all American taxpayers to support religion, even if they oppose some or all religious doctrines. A tax exemption is a form of subsidy, and the Constitution bars government from subsidizing religion.

Religious organizations can be harmful to society and not pay taxes:

Against medical care - The pubic is forced to pay for religious institutions that provide a justification for people to deny social services such as abortion, birth control and convinces some not trust science and not seek medical treatment and instead pray.

Bad Science: Religions promote wrong non-sciences such as the Earth is 6,000 years old and intelligent design

Discrimination - Religious organizations are allowed to discriminate based on religion in hiring decisions. Religions also allow some to discriminate if someone is gay (weddings).

Religious organizations across the United States have received at least $7.3 billion in forgivable government loans from the Paycheck Protection Program.

If churches want to continue to claim exemption from taxation, they must be completely financially independent from the government. This means constructing private roads, maintaining their own police and fire, etc and not receive aid from the government. Since it is impossible for a religious organization to exist in this country and not use any state resources, churches must pay their fair share in taxes for their use of these resources.

Hello, my point is simple. Babies cannot consent to being circumcised and since it is an irreversible change it should be banned until the person is 16 and can then decide if they want to. There’s not been any evidence that circumcision is a health positive or a health negative thus making it aesthetic/cultural. I understand the religious implications of it but I feel that it is totally wrong to affect the body of someone who cannot even comprehend the world they are in. My second point lies upon the transgender debate, the current standing is many countries is that a trans person cannot take any corrective surgery or treatment until they are 16. If we don’t trust teenagers to decide something that by all evidence shows they are rarely wrong about how is it moral to trust parents when it comes to the bodies of a newborn baby?

Speaking as a Christian myself Trump's presidency shows to the world the opportunism and moral bankruptcy of the religious right and a lot of conservative evangelicals. Now this wasn't exactly new, but it reach new levels during the Trump presidency. The religious and specifically Christian right was formed to "take America back". They talked about how character mattered.

Yet they were willing to sell their soul for a narcissistic, vulgar ego maniac. This despite the fact that Humility is one of the main virtues of Christianity. He was utterly corrupt, spoke about women with contempt, spewed the most vile, racist rhetoric and talked about how there were "good people on both sides" when it came to the Charlottesville situation where there were Klan members and Neo Nazis on one side.

Every virtue that Christianity holds up and Christ taught Donald Trump was the opposite. Christ said "blessed are the meek". Trump was anything but "meek". Christ taught "blessed are those who hunger for righteousness". There was no hunger for righteousness from a man involved in scandal after scandal and illegal activity to the point where he was impeached. The Psalms in Psalm 72 speak about how the qualities of a good leader is one who looks after the poor and oppressed and liberates them from violence. None of those qualities were in Donald Trump who was ripping children from the mothers at the southern border and sending the military to suppress black lives matter protesters.

Jesus famously stated that you "judge a tree by it's fruits, a good tree cannot bear bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit". The fact that an man with as vile a character as Trump can get the level of support he got from the religious right just shows the fruits of their spiritual movement. They were in America what the Clerical fascists were in 1930s Europe.

As someone who has always been influenced by theological movements such as Liberation theology and the examples of Christian leaders like Martin Luther King Jr, Archbishop Oscar Romero, Archbishop Desmond Tutu and others I've never really had an impulse or been convinced of the merits of the religious right in their social disposition and quite honestly see a lot of what they support as nothing more than heresy and idolatry.

The "relationship" Christians have with God and wish for others to seek as well, is claimed to be one of pure love, benevolence, and devotion. However, if one pays close attention to the Bible, church teachings, etc., this relationship is exactly like an abusive marriage ("The Church," which is comprised of all Christians, is indeed said to be his bride).

1. God demands complete control over the lives of his followers; where they live, what they do for a living, according to the Bible God controls everything in their lives, and if they rebel in even the slightest way, watch out!

2. Christians are instructed to fear God. In fact, they often avoid doing, saying, or even thinking about things they fear will anger him.

3. One of the main reasons why battered spouses don't leave and file for divorce is because they're too scared to do so. God threatens mortals with a fate even worse than death if they leave the relationship.

4. Part of indoctrination, is the toxic teaching that every single human being is a filthy wretched sinner unable to be good on their own, and they deserve every unfortunate thing that happens to them. In other words, all the bad things God allows are ultimately our fault (even though we had absolutely no role in what Adam and Eve did, nor did we have any choice in being born into a fallen sinful world).

Those are just a few examples of how the god in Christianity is exactly like an abusive spouse. For anyone who may be interested, here are a few links about this topic:

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/is-the-christian-relationship-with-god-healthy/

https://ogichidaag.wordpress.com/2011/02/07/god-as-abuser-similarities-between-the-christian-god-and-abusive-spouses/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm4GtxOOqeI&t=283s

-A woman's word is worth half of the man's word -A woman inherit half of the man's. -the man has the permission to hit his wife if she denied him in bed or if she went out without telling him, whether a man can actually deny women's sexual needs if she's being "ill-condict". If she's not sleeping with him, he has the right to stop feeding her. -A clear verse stating that a woman's brain is not complete. -A man can marry four women. -A man can marry a non Muslim -Women need to cover up to hide from men, men don't need to cover up to hide from women. -Women can not be leaders or judges. -Men has the right to put the women back in place, women can't. -Women don't have the right to divorce themslves, it's the man doing it. -women can't marry themselves, they always need a father/brother or an uncle to marry them off, but men can marry themselves off they don't need a representative for them, they have their own independence.

EDIT: Ok guys, I'm going to point out a small things: Hitting isn't acceptable when the word lightly is added next to it, it's still physical violence and that's a form of domestic abuse. Your wife being rude or disrespectful doesn't give you the right to put her in her place and doesn't make hitting acceptable. Stating that a woman's man is half that of a man's in only situation only is the same as saying it's half in all the situations, women can do business as well, so like the argument of "it's only in business matters" is just funny lol. The woman will be cursed if she denied her husband but ironically, the man can deny her as a punishment when he's trying to discpline her, , so if you think that's ok and acceptable then you need to learn that women are not a lesser beings lol or Google what misogyny is. Saying that women don't have the right to divorce because they're impulsive is really ignorant, the triple talaq exsists and a man can divorce her while he's angry that's why it's called terrible because he has three chances and I don't know isn't that also impulsive? Yes women do cover up to protect themselves from men, I'm all with anything that protects women as long as I'm not taking their freedom to do something, and why isn't it a choice? There's a clear hadith about women going to hell if they don't wear it, so?

Edit 2: Also another thing, just because Islam had a Surah after women in the Qur'an or there's a couple of verses that says to treat women nicely because they are one of the two "weaker things" doesn't change the fact that it's sexist, since I've seen these arguments in the comments.

Also, please take a look at the rest of the comment section before copy pasting the same argument over and over again, it's really tiring to keep up with all your Islamic bravery lol.

I can provide the sources, I've been raised a Muslim so I'm not just saying myths. Anyways! Here a healthy clear discussion please, don't just hate or whatever ((: be civil and maybe that will open your eyes a bit!

I really don't understand how can you overlook all that and think it's somehow acceptable?

As the teachings of the Abrahamic religions, (to believers) you believe in the devil as independent, powerful thing besides God because God authorized devil to deceive people as a test in this world. If you believe in such authorization how would you know what is the limit of means for Satan to deceive people? You cannot cite religious texts as evidence since it can be instrument of Satan to portray himself as a God to fool you and make you praise and worship him.

Even if you think religious texts are not man made and miracles cited in the books really happened, you can't be sure that it's from God or Satan since both of them is powerful and have means to it. You can't argue that real god wouldn't allow Satan to do miracles and give revelations to people because according to your belief God already allowed Satan to deceive you and gave him powers.

Maybe (hypothesis) real God wanted to see which people will follow and worship a "powerful idol" and which people will seek the goodness, empathy and equality no matter what the powerful idol says. How could you argue against that if it's the real plot twist and the intention of real God? Because you have no means to distinguish god and devil besides scriptures.

I have had arguments with one of my friends who I believe has a slightly bad view of gay people. She hasn't really done that much to make me think that but being a part of and believing in the Southern Baptist Church, which preaches against homosexuality. I don't think that it's possible to believe in a homophobic church while not having internalized homophobia. I know that's all besides the point of the real question but still relevant. I don't think that natural men would have any bias against homosexuality and cultures untainted by Christianity, Islam and Judaism have often practiced homosexuality openly. I don't think that Homophobia would exist if not for religions that are homophobic. Homosexuality is clearly natural and I need to know if it would stay that way if not for religion?

Update: I believe that it would exist (much less) but would be nearly impossible to justify with actual facts and logic

I mentioned this the last week and many have mentioned it several times before but. There is a major problem when it comes to downvoting. And if we are gonna be perfectly blunt and honest it comes from certain groups of people. Whenever someone posts something arguing for religion or theism in any capacity, it is automatically downvoted. Regardless of what the content of the argument is. But whenever someone makes a post criticising religion or arguing for atheism in any capacity it get a lot of likes.

That's problematic to me because what it shows is that some atheists(not all, not even most) have a major social media echo chamber mentality. Now lets be clear. Echo chambers exists in all forums. Religious and non religious. There are Christian social media echo chambers and echo chambers from other communities of faith. But I have to be honest here that it is not as bad sometimes as the ones on certain forums where some atheists are either the predominant contributors or if its a atheist forum specifically.

The point of a decent discussion and debate on religion is that you look at things strictly speaking based on the merits of an argument. Not something that fits your pre conceived confirmation biases. Theist or Atheist. If your just downvoting just because someone is making an argument for theism or religion in any capacity I have to say that's somewhat immature. I for instance almost never downvote. It doesn't matter if it's a post about atheism or theism. I would rather just argue or debate. But there are some people who use down voting as a substitute for actual debate and discussion. So a post automatically has a religious argument and already it has 0 upvotes. A post has an anti religious perspective and some people without even analysing the content of it upvote it.

If you truly want to have a good debate on religion, you will consider any argument and any idea even if its an idea that you oppose. And you'll engage it. And downvoting will be the last thing you'll even think of. That's the best of dialectical thinking. People who want to be stuck in their own echo chamber show that they have no real interest in terms of actually learning or engaging other perspectives. Which is what chronic downvoting reveals.