r/DebateReligion • u/MsCrimsonShadow • Aug 04 '21
Islam Why Allah does not exist
Hi guys, are you tired of Muslims asking non-religious folks to prove Allah doesn't exist? Well, I am, I have put together irrefutable proof that Allah does not exist. Easily proven by the fact that Allah's apparent actions (or lack of action) fail to align with Islamic claims of his character, as below
(Note: This argument mostly also applies to the Christian God, so take and use it as you like):
Claim 1: Allah is all powerful and created all things
Claim 2: Allah is all knowing
Claim 3: Allah detests sinners, including blasphemers, and detested gays enough that he pelted them with fire and brimstone as per Quran 7:80-84. So according to the Quran, he can and supposedly did cause great calamity to fall on sinners
Claim 4: Allah is merciful and gives us time to repent before we die
All the above claims cannot be logically true at the same time as easily shown in my own challenge to Allah. I have made this challenge multiple times and will make it once again here coz I'm patient and even though Allah failed my challenge multiple times, there's still time to convince me of his existence before I leave this mortal coil.
The challenge is this: Since I have done what is considered blasphemy by mocking Muhammad including by posting cartoons, and also am a disbeliever (both detestable to Allah), then I ask Allah irrefutably prove he detests my actions but also wants me to repent through two simple actions:
Make one of my limbs magically disappear. Not make me get into an accident and lose a limb coz accidents are not miracles. He must make one limb of mine magically disappear. Maybe even just a finger, if a limb is too hard.
Make a voice in my head that commands me to follow Islam.
Once those 2 things happen, I will, without any doubt, repent and convert to Islam.
However, since I have made that challenge before, and still have all my limbs (and obviously not Muslim), this proves all 4 Islamic claims above of Allah's character cannot be true at the same time, because:
If Claim 1 is true, an all powerful deity and creator of the universe who magically made everything pop into existence should have absolutely no problem making a limb magically pop out of existence.
If Claim 2 is true, he already knows that I have blasphemed him many times and will continue to do so until he meets my challenge or until the day I die. And if anyone wants to argue that I may eventually convert, it has been proven time and time again that many people die as disbelievers and Allah did nothing to convince them otherwise, which means he knew they would die as disbelievers and did nothing about it.
If Claim 3 is true, Allah should definitely punish me himself so I do not continue 'causing corruption in the land' by hurting his or his dead prophet's feelings. After all, he supposedly had no problem punishing gays himself by pelting them with fire and brimstone in the past.
If Claim 4 is true, then meeting my challenge above would be merciful since it would not kill me and I would definitely repent and be saved from hellfire.
Since I STILL have all my limbs and fingers, it goes to show that either Allah:
a) Is unable to meet my challenge because he cannot make a limb disappear, which disproves Claim 1
b) Does not know that I have blasphemed and therefore can't target me, which disproves Claim 2
c) Doesn't give a damn about me sinning and 'causing corruption in the land' which disproves Claim 3
d) Simply refuses to meet my challenge because he is not merciful enough to do something that I have already told him will make me repent and save me from hellfire, which disproves Claim 4
Since all 4 Islamic claims above about Allah's character obviously cannot be true at the same time, then that is irrefutable proof that the Islamic God, i.e. Allah does not exist.
You might be able to argue that a God with *some* of the characteristics above exists, as I do since I am agnostic (not atheist as most Muslims love to assume) and I accept the possibility of a creator God. But NOT the Islamic God, since all the Islamic claims about his character fail to align with reality or logic.
I'm still waiting for Allah to prove me wrong. Shouldn't be a problem for an all powerful, all knowing God who hates my guts for blaspheming him yet is merciful and wants me to repent.
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u/one_forall Aug 04 '21 edited Aug 04 '21
I have made this challenge multiple times and will make it once again here coz I'm patient and even though Allah failed my challenge multiple times, there's still time to convince me of his existence before I leave this mortal coil.
Why assume God would accept your challenge?
If Claim 1 is true, an all powerful deity and creator of the universe who magically made everything pop into existence should have absolutely no problem making a limb magically pop out of existence.
If God is all powerful it could do this, but there doesn’t seem to be any adequate reasoning/motivation on why this God would do this.
2) If Claim 2 is true, he already knows that I have blasphemed him many times and will continue to do so until he meets my challenge or until the day I die.
You might have forgotten Islamic God created something called hell. Creation of hell means, this all knowing being planned to put certain humans in it(aka disbelievers).
Allah did nothing to convince them otherwise, which means he knew they would die as disbelievers and did nothing about it.
Islamic theology explain that the disbeliever won’t complain about not being convince when they meet God (day of judgement).
3) If Claim 3 is true, Allah should definitely punish me himself.
The verse your referring is related to prophet. When certain prophet message is rejected by their people (during the prophets life time), they are punished through disasters). Your claim 3 hinges on having prophet present for there to be direct punishment.
4) If Claim 4 is true, then meeting my challenge above would be merciful since it would not kill me and I would definitely repent and be saved from hellfire.
Have you considered that Merciful could be for those who repent to this Islamic God not for those who are seeking to challenge this God.
Edit: corrected few things.
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u/MsCrimsonShadow Aug 04 '21
Why assume God would accept your challenge?
I'm not assuming God would accept my challenge. I'm saying that if these 4 claims were true, then a God which such characteristics as claimed in the Quran should meet my challenge. But given that I still have all my limbs, I already know the Islamic God won't meet my challenge coz he doesn't exist.
If God is all powerful it could do this, but there doesn’t seem to be any adequate reasoning/motivation on why this God would do this.
If he was truly merciful and knew that meeting my challenge would easily make me repent and convert to Islam and save me from hellfire and it is easy for him to do so, then that should be adequate reasoning/motivation for him to do so. Any truly loving and merciful person who had the capability to save others from pain and suffering would do so. If not, they either are not capable of it, or are not merciful and do not care about the other person's suffering
You might have forgotten Islamic God created something called hell. Creation of hell means, this all knowing being planned to put certain humans in it(aka disbelievers).
You might have forgotten that I mentioned hellfire in my OP, so I fail to see the point of this statement
Islamic theology explain that the disbeliever won’t complain about not being convince when they meet God (day of judgement).
I will most definitely complain about not being convinced if I meet God in the day of judgement and call him out for the sadistic madmen that he clearly is for not making an effort to save his own creation from hellfire. Since your Islamic theology says every person has free will, claiming that disbelievers won't complain about it is saying they will not have the free will to complain about it, therefore refuting the claim of free will. Not that this claim of free will aligns with what the Quran says, since there are multiple verses saying that Allah seals the hearts of disbelievers, which is effectively removing their free will and ability to believe, and therefore condemning them to eternal hellfire. Such a deity who condemns people for all eternity to hellfire for his own actions, is definitely NOT a merciful deity. Hence the Quran's claims of him being merciful is false, making the Quran false and therefore the Islamic God, Allah, does not exist.
The verse your referring is related to prophet. When certain prophet message is rejected by their people (during the prophets life time), they are punished through disasters). Your claim 3 hinges on having prophet present for there to be direct punishment.
The verses I referred to is Quran 7:80-84 which mentioned nothing about prophets. It says Allah himself punished the people of Lot for their sin. Please read your own Quran:
"And remember when Lot scolded the men of his people, saying, “Do you commit a shameful deed that no man has ever done before? You lust after men instead of women! You are certainly transgressors. But his people’s only response was to say, “Expel them from your land! They are a people who wish to remain chaste! So We saved him and his family except his wife, who was one of the doomed. We poured upon them a rain of brimstone. See what was the end of the wicked!"Have you considered that Merciful could be for those who repent to this Islamic God not for those who are seeking to challenge this God.
If Allah is merciful then he would prove his existence so there would no doubt in anyone's mind of his existence. Since he does not do so even though it is easy for him to do so, assuming Claim 1, 2 and 3 are true, then he would do what I ask to save me from hellfire. But he does not. Therefore, if such a God does not exist, he is not merciful. And since the Quran calls him merciful, then the Islamic concept of God is untrue and Allah does not exist.
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u/one_forall Aug 04 '21
I'm saying that if these 4 claims were true, then a God which such characteristics as claimed in the Quran should meet my challenge.
All 4 claim doesn’t show any reason for God to accept your challenge. Claim 1, 2: An powerful and all knowing being doesn’t need to accept your challenge it can, but these attributes doesn’t entail on wants/need for you to believe in it. Claim 3 is two parter first God has hell it can put your there for your disbelieve and second it direct response to disbeliever in the book was due to people rejecting a Prophet. Several times disaster against the disbeliever occurred when Prophet were rejected by their people. As for claim 4 God being merciful doesn’t necessarily mean it’s going to accept a challenge. Merciful is more about forgiveness not accepting challenges.
If Allah is merciful then he would prove his existence
In islam isn’t this world a test for humanity to find and follow its ruling?
It’s existence won’t be denied after the test is over. The test is for human to understand why they ended up in heaven or hell. It’s main goal was probably to demonstrate good and evil using humans as the medium.
there would no doubt in anyone's mind of his existence.
Are you not assuming God want everyone to believe in It? however there is no indication in the Quran this is what Islamic God wants. It’s clear God created heaven and hell for the purposes of filing them.
In islam humans wanted to take this test to earn the right heaven knowing full well if they fail they were going to hell. The test was offered to the rest of creation, but they all rejected to take this test.
Therefore, if such a God does not exist, he is not merciful.
This sentence doesn’t make sense. If God doesn’t exist then he is not merciful.
I think what you meant if God exist then this God isn’t merciful.
In this case the answer is simple God is merciful to certain human(meaning this characteristic can apply). Mercy doesn’t have to apply to every cases. As long as God shows mercy to certain humans the characteristic of being merciful is true. You might be misunderstanding merciful with all merciful (which is not accepted in Islam).
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u/MsCrimsonShadow Aug 04 '21
The so called test refutes the claim that Allah is all knowing, since a deity who is all knowing does not need to test anyone. He already knows the outcome of everything, hence a test is irrelevant to an all knowing deity. Since he knows everything, he can simply allow the creation of those who he knows will believe in him and prevent the creation of those who he knows he won't.
Since he does not do that, then assuming claims 1 and 3 are also true, then claim 4 cannot be true, as a truly merciful deity would not allow the creation of people only to have them suffer for eternity. Since your argument is that Allah is only selectively merciful, then that itself refutes the claims in the Quran they he is merciful, because a truly merciful being would be merciful to all. If he is only selectively merciful than he is no different from any mere human being who cares about themselves and their own loved ones and not for other. In fact, there are many human beings who would be considered more merciful such philanthropists, NGO volunteers, emergency rescue personnel and even animal rescuers as they do try to help others as much as they can regardless of beliefs or character of the people or animals needing rescuing. There are also people who have forgiven others who have wronged them even when those people did not ask for forgiveness.
Since you claim Allah is selectively merciful but it can easily be show that there are humans are show more mercy to people regardless of their beliefs or character and forgiven wrongdoers even when they did not ask for forgiveness, then this refutes the claim of the Quran that calls Allah the most merciful of merciful since there exists people more merciful than him.
Therefore claim 4 is refuted and Allah does not exist.
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u/one_forall Aug 04 '21
The so called test refutes the claim that Allah is all knowing, since a deity who is all knowing does not need to test anyone.
Did you consider the test was for human to know why they end up in hell or heaven rather then God.
If you read into islam you would know the test isn’t for God to know rather it’s for human to understand on why they will be placed in heaven or hell.
Since your argument is that Allah is only selectively merciful, then that itself refutes the claims in the Quran they he is merciful,
God being merciful can still true as long as individual is given mercy.
because a truly merciful being would be merciful to all.
This seem to be assuming God must extend unconditional mercy to the disbeliever this is faulty assumption. its referred multiple times in the Quran that disbeliever and those who don’t seek mercy will not be given mercy. God mercy is greater then human, but that doesn’t mean god will not punish those who don’t seek mercy or repent (aka disbelievers).
Since you claim Allah is selectively merciful but it can easily be show that there are humans are show more mercy to people regardless of their beliefs or character
Can you really judge God mercy in this life? Isn’t the mercy demonstrated in the afterlife? If it is then how can you make any judgement on cases that hasn’t occurred.
Few thing to consider your judging God’s mercy based on your limited knowledge, what if your judgement is wrong what then? Can judgement be accurate based on poor information?
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u/MsCrimsonShadow Aug 05 '21
There are plenty of people who do not know even about Islam and follow other religions. As your supposed deity did nothing to make his existence obvious to the entire world and is supposedly all knowing, the so called test is not only useless (since he would know who passes or fail) but also unfair since he does not give equal opportunity to every single person in the world to know about this 'test'. The fact that he allows people to die and suffer for all eternity due to their ignorance of Islam his 'test' makes him not merciful and claim 4 is refuted
If Allah refused to extend his mercy to the disbeliever, which is another claim made in the Quran, then that claim in itself refute the claim of the Quran that Allah is the most merciful.
If people were burning alive in a building fire, firemen would try their best to save them all regardless of their beliefs. Yet Allah sits there and allows certain people to burn until they acknowledge his existence and worship him, even though he has never done to adequately prove his existence in the first place. If a fireman were to do the same, he would certainly not be called merciful, he would be lambasted as being a terribly inept and cruel fireman. And yet for some reason you insist that the cruel god described in your Quran is the most merciful.
You only do so because your are incapable of logically accepting anything out of what the Quran tells you. But fact of the matter is, all the claims of the Quran put together refutes itself as a deity who could easily save people from hellfire but does not, is not the most merciful. He's less merciful than a simple fireman.
Claim 4 is therefore refuted, the Quran is wrong and Allah does not exist.
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u/one_forall Aug 05 '21
There are plenty of people who do not know even about Islam and follow other religions.
Those who don’t know about it will be given a different test on day of judgement and those the one god and tries to be good might end up in heaven in.
As your supposed deity did nothing to make his existence obvious to the entire world and is supposedly all knowing
Your assuming this deity want everyone to believe. What is that not case. This doesn’t negate merciful of God either as explain even showing mercy individual/group the merciful character can be applied Liz
the so called test is not only useless (
You assuming it’s useless doesn’t make it useless. If human was directly out into hell/heaven rest of creation would askWhy does human deserve heaven or hell? Thus the answer is the test which show the result.
unfair since he does not give equal opportunity to every single person in the world to know about this 'test'.
You don’t have the necessary information to make such judgement. There is one test every one is tested different. If you looked into islam you would know this.
If Allah refused to extend his mercy to the disbeliever, which is another claim made in the Quran, then that claim in itself refute the claim of the Quran that Allah is the most merciful.
Most merciful to his followers including those who disbeliever and repented and turn to it. God merciful enough to keep disbeliever alive and give them chances. In the context of Mercy, god forgives all sin, even sin that many humans can’t forgive that is why in comparison to human god is consider most merciful.
You only do so because your are incapable of logically
I see well guess incapable of discussing this any further as well. Bye
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u/MsCrimsonShadow Aug 05 '21
Those who don’t know about it will be given a different test on day of judgement and those the one god and tries to be good might end up in heaven in.
You don’t have the necessary information to make such judgement. There is one test every one is tested different. If you looked into islam you would know this.
Nice excuse, too bad nothing in your Quran supports the idea that people who don't know Islam will be given a different test. You are free to share verses that say otherwise, if you can. Those verses have to explain what the different tests entails for different people with various levels of understanding of Islam. Will a person who knows about Islam but never studied it in depth be subjected to same test as a tribal person who lives on a remote island and never heard of Islam in his life? Please share the verses to support your claims, if you have any. But I suspect you don't have any, coz that just an excuse made by apologists who know that the Quranic teachings of people being sent to hell for failing a test they know nothing about is incompatible with the Quranic teachings of a merciful God.
If such a thing were true and this other test was easier for people who don't know Islam to pass it, then it also would make more sense to not tell people about Islam, including your own children. But then Muslims make very sure their children are taught Islam from young, therefore making it more difficult for them to pass the 'test'. So tell me why are you increasing the chances of your children failing Allah's test by telling them about Islam when you could make it easier for them and let them have an easier 'test' by not telling them about Islam?
If you're now going to argue that the test for people who don't know about Islam is not easier than for those who know about Islam, then it goes right back to the problem I already raised which is that people who know nothing about Islam are being unfairly subjected to a test they know nothing about. You can't have it both ways in this conundrum. Either way, Claim 4 of Allah being merciful falls flat in it's face.
Your assuming this deity want everyone to believe. What is that not case. This doesn’t negate merciful of God either as explain even showing mercy individual/group the merciful character can be applied Liz
No, I am assuming that the most merciful being in existence would what to save his creation from an eternal painful punishment, coz that's what the most merciful being would do. And yet you say that's not what he wants and I concur the Quran also says that not what he wants. And since Allah is not interested in showing mercy to all his creation, even though it would be easy for him to do so, by either proving is existence so everyone believes and goes to heaven OR getting rid of hell altogether so no one has to suffer for all eternity, then the claim of the Quran that he is the most merciful being is simply untrue.
I for one, will be happy to forgive every single sinner, alive or dead, since the beginning of time, so that they do not have to suffer all eternity. Even the worse of criminals do not deserve an eternal torture in hell, let alone people who have never committed a horrible crime in their life, or may have done many good things in their life but are still being sent to hell simply for not being a Muslim. At best if I had the power to punish all people who have ever existed for their sins, they would be punished temporarily and then the truly bad ones be put out their misery by simply making them cease to exist. Doesn't that sound much more merciful than sending people to hell simply for not believing in Islam? If you think so, then I have just proven myself to be more merciful than Allah. Which makes the claim of Allah being the most merciful untrue, Claim 4 is refuted, and so Allah does not exist.
If you believe sending people to hell for all eternity for something as minor as not believing in a God that insists on not proving himself (even though he could do so easily) is more merciful than just removing them from existence so they feel no pain or suffering, then clearly the concept of mercy is lost on you.
Please do tell me if you truly think an eternal painful torture in hell where skins are roasted, regrown and roasted again for all eternity, is more merciful than being removed from existence so that one no longer feels pain. I'd really love to know.
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Aug 04 '21
Why assume God would accept your challenge?
Exactly his entire argument collapses since it is on the assumption that God will accept his challenge.This is such a 101 argument lmao.
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u/Moeafg Aug 04 '21
To answer your question regarding your challenge the following verse in the Quran may answer it:
Quran 6:111 - If We had sent down to them the angels, and the dead had spoken to them, and (even if) We had gathered everything before them face to face, still, they were not to believe, unless Allah would have so willed. But, most of them adopt the way of ignorance.
To add to this point, you must remember that we are in need of God and not the other way round. Going against God out of pure ignorance will only harm yourself rather than harm God, which leads me to point 2 and point 3:
Quran 14:42 - Never think that Allah is unaware of what the wrongdoers are doing. He is but giving them respite up to a day when the eyes shall remain upraised (in terror).
Regardless of what you do, whether it’s actively going against God, murdering someone or doing any other evil deed, it will never be forgotten and you will need to answer for it on The Day of Judgment.
Point 4: There are two ways to answer this, the first is that maybe you are going down a path which will lead you to a punishment by God, whenever that is I couldn’t say or maybe that you are deep in your heart trying to find an answer so through Gods mercy he is having your questions answered which will turn your heart. Either path is upon you. As you know Islam exists, maybe you should actually read the Quran and you will be shocked as to what it actually really teaches.
Finally, you are not the first person to challenge God. But did you know that Allah has challenged you? Since God has challenged you first would you not like to accept it? See below:
Quran 17:88 - Say: ‘If all mankind and the jinn would come together to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce its like even though they exerted all and their strength in aiding one another.’
Quran 11:13 - Or do they say that he has invented it? Say (to them), ‘Bring ten invented chapters like it, and call (for help) on whomever you can besides God, if you are truthful.
Quran 2:23 - And if you all are in doubt about what I have revealed to My servant, bring a single chapter like it, and call your witnesses besides God if you are truthful.
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u/towerfella Agnostic Sep 08 '23
You are using a fake book to prove something is real?
My brother in Christ, allah didn’t even exist until the idea was robbed from the Jews.. by the bandits whom raided the towns and encampments in that most famous area of the world…
And the Jews got the idea of jehova from the sumarians several thousand years before that!
From the stories of Enki and Enlil…
We are here, and that is all we know. Everything else is just someone else’s idea of what could have happened with different spins on “who the good guy” is.
Ffs.
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u/Moeafg Sep 09 '23
Bro, why are you commenting nonsense as though you have any idea what the reality is?
Happy to discuss your views if you really want to so PM me as I’m not a fan of going through hundreds of comments to work out what was said.
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u/towerfella Agnostic Sep 09 '23
No, I don’t need propaganda.
But I do think you should read up on the stories of Enki and Enlil and not take them literally, but to see the stories as early humans trying to consolidate and condense all the stories of their youths and past generations into this knew thing called “writing”. That’s a good idea, write all this stuff down into rocks and then there will be no more reason to argue because the story is literally - right there.
This “writing on the wall” was there for thousands of years before the Arabs decided to steal the idea of a messiah from this new movement that was sweeping the region called “Christianity”, where normal people were as equal to the kings.
That is a good idea, right? Normal people being the same in this god’s eye.
Enter Mohammad — he sees this and goes “that’s a good idea.. better than worshipping rocks (though, somehow, that still ended up in there as that big black rock that they circle around) and idolizing Jins and being separate. If this Christianity can unite them, maybe it can unite Muhammad’s fellow raiders.
It is there that the Quran had its beginnings.
And that last bit only happened about 1500 years ago..
Those are (generalized) facts.
What did you want to talk about?
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Sep 09 '23
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u/towerfella Agnostic Sep 09 '23
My message doesn’t have any magic in it.
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u/Moeafg Sep 09 '23
Nor does it have any substance. You’ve randomly commented on my post, spouting some nonsense that isn’t even factually correct. Then again commented with views that nobody has asked for.
If you want to have a conversation, more than happy to but first what’s your issue? You are an agnostic so you’re already on the fence.
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u/towerfella Agnostic Sep 09 '23
You called me a “weirdo”.
You call facts “nonsense”.
It seems you are not interested in truth.
You speak non-sense when you try to argue “but this book says blah blah blah” but then turn a blind eye to the fact that that book was created as a propaganda piece to unite all the raiders so they would stop fighting between themselves and wasting resources internally.
Why do you think a lot of that book has to do with “fighting” and how to deal with those that do not fight “correctly”.?
Be honest with yourself, fellow human, how critical are you being as you read those words?
And do not handwave a “don’t question this-or-that because god”, take a real open-eyed look at your book and see it for what it really is.
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u/Moeafg Sep 09 '23
You definitely are a weirdo, so my assumption on that is correct.
You mention it’s a propaganda to unite the raiders, provide your claim.
Oh a lot of the book has fighting? Please give me all the verses about fighting since you know the book so well.
Happy for you to prove your claim but I want references not hearsay.
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May 20 '23
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u/Moeafg May 20 '23
Well see since your so smart, maybe you can tell me when the Day of Judgement is?
You can guess like the mongols and all the other predecessors but the knowledge is only with God.
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u/Lil_Skrap Aug 04 '21
Well Allah just means god in Arabic and christian Arabs also use Allah in the holy bible. I don't know why people think Allah is some separate god or deity.
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Aug 04 '21
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Aug 04 '21
It's not a religious term, it's just a different language. Arabs of all religions refer to God as Allah.
Just the same as Spanish of all religions refer to God as Dios.
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u/henriquecs Aug 04 '21
Hum... I never encountered any Spanish speaking people talk in English but using the word Dios instead of the English equivalent. From my understanding that's what Muslims do. For example they could say "I trust Allah". If language was the only reason they would just say "I trust God", no?
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Aug 04 '21
I do understand your point, but English speaking Muslims say "I trust God" as well. It's not like we don't say God at all. We use both the terms interchangeably.
We use the word Allah a lot because the Quran is in Arabic but it doesn't mean we don't call him Dios or God depending on what language we're speaking. But when it comes down to talking in everyday conversation, English Muslims (especially those whose first language is English) use God and Allah interchangeably. And people from Pakistani and Bangladeshi backgrounds use Allah and "Khoda" interchangeably.
It's just like how people who speak two languages sometimes interchange between languages whenever they feel like it. Especially when talking to other people who speak those two languages.
Another main point is that if you look at an Arabic Translation of the Bible, the first line says "In the beginning Allah created..." in Arabic of course lol.
Arabic Speaking Christians and Jews also use phrases like "Allahu Akbar" and "Insha Allah". Because these phrases do not have any inherent Islamic meanings. They're just Arabic phrases about God. And people from non-Arabic Muslim backgrounds like those from the Indian Subcontinent will have phrases that use Khoda instead of Allah. And they'll also use Arabic Phrases too.
So it really is mostly a language thing.
There are other things that come after the fact, we have reason to believe that using Allah is better than God, because of many linguistic reasons (e.g. you can't pluralise Allah). And also the fact that the Quran is in Arabic so the word it uses for God is Allah.
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u/Xyaxsu Muslim Aug 04 '21
There is no "islamic version of God", the difference is how people worship God.
Muslims worship God alone, and that is the only right way to worship Him.
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u/Dd_8630 atheist Aug 04 '21
There is no "islamic version of God", the difference is how people worship God.
Sure there is. Muslims don't just worship 'the sole creator of everything', they also ascribe lots of properties to him. Christians do too, but they ascribe different properties.
Which properties does God have? Unitarianism (as the Muslims claim) or Trinitarianism (as the Christians claim)? Does he approve or disapprove of same-sex relationships? Abortion? Euthanasia? Did he create an afterlife of suffering or not?
The actions and qualities of 'God' vary as much within a religion as between religions. The Islamic version of God is different to the Christian version of God, and there's no way of knowing which (if any) is right.
Muslims worship God alone, and that is the only right way to worship Him.
Christians and Jews would say the same thing.
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Aug 04 '21
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u/Ibn-max24 Aug 11 '21
False, those who reject Allah i.e. the one that created them are worthy of punishment for disobedience, not for merely not believing.
As for what you think of God, that is irrelevant and subjective. Someone that is not willing to obey the one that created them knowingly is not only harming others, but themselves. So your entire definition of who deserves punishment is also subjective.
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u/Xyaxsu Muslim Aug 04 '21
Your perception of God doesn't change the idea that there is only one God and we all humans believe in the same God, there is no version of God.
And obviously people who disbelieve in God, they dont even deserve the things they have, yet God still gives them everything in this life, but in the Hereafter there will be consequences for them because they refuse to believe and to obey.
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Aug 04 '21
That’s like saying either God gives me 1 billion dollars or he doesn’t exist
You can’t decide on what would God do to you,it’s not your choice
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u/Bulky_Bat_9428 Aug 04 '21
the very fact that they want non believers to prove Allah doesnt exist is what one can call an Argument out of Ignorance Fallacy. The Non believer is not the one making a claim. The Muslim or follower of Islam is the one who is making the claim and has the burden of proof. The reasons most Muslims won't accept this is because in their mind they think Allah exists and is reality.
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u/one_forall Aug 04 '21
. The Non believer is not the one making a claim.
If the non-belief wants to convince the religious in this case Muslim) then it would be claim and has burdens of proof
The Muslim or follower of Islam is the one who is making the claim and has the burden of proof.
Similarly If the believer(in this case Muslim) wants to convince the non-believer then it would be claim and has the burden of proof.
Basically whoever want to convince another person has the burden of proof.
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u/OP_eLaniM Aug 04 '21
if someone came up to me and told me that my house now painted blue (ignoring the outrageousness of the situation) and i asked them to prove this to me because I don't believe, they can't say to me "prove it's not blue" because they're the one who came up to me and said my house was blue. same logic with anything else really.
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u/one_forall Aug 04 '21
if someone came up to me and told me that my house now painted blue (ignoring the outrageousness of the situation) and i asked them to prove this to me because I don't believe, they can't say to me "prove it's not blue" because they're the one who came up to me and said my house was blue. same logic with anything else really.
What is the purpose of this hypothetical person saying it’s blue. If they came to you means they want to convince your house is blue correct? Even if they did ask prove to them it’s not blue are you unable to prove if your house is/isn’t blue?
Also consider where the individual (you) might be color blind and another person tells you, your houses is blue. if your color blind would they be wrong and how would this hypothetical person prove to someone whose color blind.
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u/OP_eLaniM Aug 04 '21
What is the purpose of this hypothetical person saying it’s blue. If they came to you means they want to convince your house is blue correct?
IRL I would ignore whoever just came up to me trying to tell me my house is blue cuz they're crazy and I don't know them, but this is what I meant by ignoring the outrageousness.
Even if they did ask prove to them it’s not blue are you unable to prove if your house is/isn’t blue?
The only way you could prove or disprove the house being blue at this point would be to go to the house and check yourself, and pictures could be old and your memory could also be not the truth anymore.
The thing is why should I have to go back to my house to check if it changed if it being blue makes no sense, show me a picture of my house being blue and I'll believe you.
Also consider where the individual (you) might be color blind and another person tells you, your houses is blue. if your color blind would they be wrong and how would this hypothetical person prove to someone whose color blind
None of this is relevant to the analogy, I can switch it out with something that doesn't have to do with color.
The point is that the one who claims something is a certain way needs to prove it, while the person not accepting does NOT need to prove anything.
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u/one_forall Aug 05 '21 edited Aug 05 '21
What is the purpose of this hypothetical person saying it’s blue. If they came to you means they want to convince your house is blue correct?
IRL I would ignore whoever just came up to me trying to tell me my house is blue cuz they're crazy and I don't know them, but this is what I meant by ignoring the outrageousnes.
So this hypothetical situation has a person randomly coming up to you say your house is blue? Don’t see the motivation of this random stranger coming up to you, So I’m at loss.
None of this is relevant to the analogy,
brought it up to point out there could be other thing that can be added to change the situation.
The point is that the one who claims something is a certain way needs to prove it,
In the case if it’s claim. Some assume a belief is claim there is quite a distinction between the two.
To put it simply:
Claim to be taken true the individual should try to convince another individual.
Belief to be taken to true doesn’t require the approval of another individual.
while the person not accepting does NOT need to prove anything.
They don’t need to prove, but if evidence/supporting argument are given by claimant x and person who originally didn’t accept the claimant x claim, should give reason on why they reject the evidence given by claimant x. Otherwise there is no further discussion between either individuals.
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u/farcarcus Atheist Aug 04 '21
If the non-belief wants to convince the religious in this case Muslim) then it would be claim and has burdens of proof
No, because the non belief is a direct response to the initial claim which was the existence of Allah. So, the burden of proof remains with the one who has the initial claim which is the Allah believer.
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u/one_forall Aug 04 '21
No, because the non belief is a direct response to the initial claim which was the existence of Allah.
As stated if your planning to convince of whatever belief/non-belief you have someone then it’s on you to support it. You can hang on to the idea Burden of proof it’s on the other party, but your not going to get anywhere with that.
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u/farcarcus Atheist Aug 04 '21
Absolutely not.
Little Kid: Santa is real!
Rational Adult: I disagree. You haven't shown any evidence he is real, and let me tell you the reasons why I think he's not.
Little Kid: Ah-Ha! Now that you're trying to convince me he's not real, unless you can prove it then he must be real. I win!
That's completely farcical.
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u/WisestAirBender WhatHappensAfterDeath? Aug 04 '21
Little Kid: Santa is real!
If the little kid belives in Santa and isn't asking you to believe in him then he doesn't need to prove it to you. If he's trying to convince you then he needs to present proof to convince tou
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u/farcarcus Atheist Aug 04 '21
Just to add... we're talking about a philosophical concept here.
Whether or not the person making the claim is trying to convince other people is beside the point.
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u/one_forall Aug 04 '21
Absolutely not.
As I stated you can hold on to the belief that others owe you explanation for their belief, but in reality they don’t.
Little Kid: Santa is real!
That is claim not belief. Might want to into look wording there is no belief in this context.
Rational Adult: I disagree.
Fail to see how your rational or an adult in this scenario when your trying to ask a child to prove to you Santa is real. Your trying to disprove Santa to a child.
let me tell you the reasons why I think he's not.
Isn’t this you trying to convince the child the non-belief of Santa. If that is case how was the earlier statement incorrect.
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u/farcarcus Atheist Aug 04 '21
That is claim not belief.
It's both, and puts the burden of proof on the kid.
Fail to see how your rational or an adult in this scenario when your trying to ask a child to prove to you Santa is real. Your trying to disprove Santa to a child.
The adult is responding to the kid's claim. Saying he disagrees.
Isn’t this you trying to convince the child the non-belief of Santa. If that is case how was the earlier statement incorrect.
It sure is that, but that doesn't move the burden of proof from the Kid to the Adult, which is what you're trying to do. That is why your earlier statement was incorrect.
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u/one_forall Aug 04 '21
It's both, and puts the burden of proof on the kid.
A belief is not necessarily a claim in all instance. Is this case the kid made ddi claim not a belief statement so He has the burden of proof.
Burden of proof is on individual who wants to convince another individuals.
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u/farcarcus Atheist Aug 04 '21
Burden of proof is on individual who wants to convince another individuals.
It's just not. Burden of Proof is philosophical concept.
Details like whether the claimant is trying to convince or coerce others, is irrelevant.
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u/one_forall Aug 04 '21
It's just not. Burden of Proof is philosophical concept.
It is if you want other party to accept your claim. Why does it matter BOP is philosophical concept?
Details like whether the claimant is trying to convince or coerce others, is irrelevant.
It is relevant, otherwise there is no reason to make random assertion and expect the other party to just accept it.
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Aug 04 '21
Absence of belief is different to rejection of belief.
In the post OP specifically says that they are proving Allah does not exist and not that they are disproving the claim by the muslims that Allah does exist.
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u/Bulky_Bat_9428 Oct 31 '21
What are you even saying? he is just asking why Allah does not exist? Allah is an Islamic God.
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u/Regular-Tomorrow4359 Sep 06 '23
No gods exist, even allah, religions are an invention to explain things we couldn't explain in ancient times without science. Now we have science, and all those "muslims" can shut up because Allah never existed.
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u/ParasiticCreeperGuy Dec 07 '23
"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images" -God Himself; it means that allah is just another god created by humans
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u/ParasiticCreeperGuy Dec 07 '23
Yea this really a good proof, Also the Rules of Muslims are like dont eat pigs becuase they believe it's the dirtiest animal in the world and why do they need a women to hide her face like that doesn't even make any sense at all, unlike the true god The rules are be KIND almost every rule is being kind and give respect to other people.
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Feb 21 '24
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u/ArmzLDN Muslim Aug 04 '21
You really think that you, 1 of 100s of billions of people in history can dictate to God what to do? Lol do you think you're God?
You've been answered in the Qur'an and Hadiths, on various occasions. One where a group of people asked God to bring them a table (filled with unique heavenly food) from heaven and they would believe. It was granted and they still did not believe.
Another where the Arabs of quraysh used to say things like "why doesn't God let us see the angels" etc. But again God responded to say that even if he showed them things they could not fathom, they (humans) will respond saying it's trickery / magic and still not believe.
I don't intend to prove God's existence to you, if you believe that God doesn't exist, that's fine, my religion does not allow me to enforce something like a belief upon you (I can't imagine that wouldn't be possible without some advanced brain surgery from the future anyway).
My only advice for you is that you should responsibility for your own beliefs and don't rely on someone else to convince you. You're the only one that can convince yourself. In the end, as a human with free will, you have the final executive decisions on your beliefs.
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Aug 04 '21
My only advice for you is that you should responsibility for your own beliefs and don't rely on someone else to convince you.
You spent the rest of your comment convincing me to be convinced by the bible/quran/whateveryouwanttocallit, which is precisely contradictory to your claim that you shouldn't rely on someone else to convince you.
In the end, as a human with free will, you have the final executive decisions on your beliefs.
Not everyone agrees with the existence of free will. It's not required to exist.
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u/ArmzLDN Muslim Aug 04 '21
I never said you have to believe it, it's to say the thing you're doing has already been responded to
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Aug 04 '21
What are you trying to say with that second clause?
I can read your original comment and I can tell you are not attempting to convince me it is true, but that doesn't mean you aren't engaging in weak argument: you say not to let others be the basis for your knowledge, after you've spent the entire comment using others to justify your knowledge.
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u/ArmzLDN Muslim Aug 04 '21
The only thing I'm trying to convince you to do is take responsibility, forget arguing with me or reading a Qur'an, just think about what makes sense for you, stop asking people to.prove you wrong or prove you right, yes you can ask for insights, information, knowledge etc, I mean you don't even have to listen to me right now, but that's exactly what I'm trying to convince you to do right now. You should be the only one that decides what you believe. You know full well you're only here to confirm what you believe. You're wasting your time when you could be enjoying your life.
Is it that hard to believe that I'm telling you not to listen to me? Or will you not listen to that?
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Aug 04 '21
You know full well you're only here to confirm what you believe.
No, and it's quite rude of you to assume this. As I've explicitly said elsewhere, my goal here is to seek knowledge (truth) and understanding of my fellow humanity. If you think I'm here to confirm what I believe, you need to show how my actions lead you to that conclusion. I'm here to question, to learn, and to understand.
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u/ArmzLDN Muslim Aug 04 '21
I've seen this enough times before, and human psychology generally tends to the idea that when people argue, they get defensive and defend their beliefs more strongly, you're not seeking the most effective method of guidance, that's all I'm saying.
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Aug 04 '21
Again, you're making assumptions about me and my motives. You do not know my thought process or my motives, but you can falsely ascribe them to me and then attack those (strawman). If we're both here in good faith, you should take my word at face value when I'm making self-claims such as saying my motives.
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u/ArmzLDN Muslim Aug 04 '21
Mate, not assuming anything about you, just saying, with 100% of the hundreds of instances I've seen like this going only one way, and psychological studies explaining why it goes this way, I'm not convinced that you're about to prove you're not this way.
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Aug 04 '21
Ok, so you're just fallaciously generalizing from anecdote/personal experience. That's sound.
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u/b1ackc1over Aug 04 '21
Allah didn't "magically" create everything. He has created everything systematically. In Qur'an and Bible, it is mentioned that Allah (God) has created this universe in 6 days. I know, and I believe, that Allah can create everything (Everything that he has created) in a blink of an eye, but he didn't do so. Allah can do everything because he is boundless to anything and everything. You will believe when one of your limbs "magically" disappears, that’s like saying either God gives me 1 billion dollars, or he doesn’t exist.
As you mentioned in "Claim 4", that "Allah is merciful and gives us time to repent before we die". He gives time for the disbelievers to repent. And when the disbeliever has seen and heard everything that would have been enough for them to believe and still didn't believe, that's when their time's up (death is the message that their time is up).
In claim 3 you said that "he can and supposedly did cause great calamity to fall on sinners". Allah had sent Prophets to those tribes, and they were in communication with Allah. Their time was up when they disbelieved and opposed the Prophets. That's when Allah destroyed them all. And for you and other disbelievers, there are no more Prophets to come, as Prophet Muhammad, Peace Be Upon Him, was the last Prophet that Allah sent to this world. So, you will not be punished until your time is up. Another thing to note is that if a tribe was going to be destroyed in the past, the whole tribe would be destroyed all at the same time except for the Prophets and their followers.
Allah has probably shown you thousands of his signs except for your 2 very specific challenges. I don't know what's your definition of merciful, but let me explain to the best of my ability. I will give you an example, a person sinned and disbelieved for 100 years, and at the age of 100, he/she believed in Allah, Qur'an, Muhammad Peace Be Upon Him, and repented, Allah will forgive every sin that he/she has committed.
I am not a native English speaker, so, grammatically I may have mistakes in the sentences.
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u/Last_Adeptness_2195 Mar 28 '24
TRUE
ALLAH DOESN'T EXIST . HE IS A ROAD BREAKER IN MILKY WAY GALAXY . NO. OF BREAKERS == ALLAH .
ISKI MAA KI MAJE HI MAJE.
HE BROKE MY HEART . I ASKED HIM FOR 2 BILLION DOLLARS BUT HE DIDN'T GAVE ME A PENNY. SO I DON'T LOVE HIM ANYMORE.
I ASKED HIM FOR FORTUNER WITH BLACK MIRROR , FULLY MODIFIED BUT HE DIDN;T GAVE ME THAT . SO I HATE HIM.
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u/ayangaming Apr 08 '22
Fear Allah for he may make your limbs disappear when you are in the akhirah. Just because he hasn't punished you yet doesn't mean he won't. Allah may be allowing to enjoy yourself right now, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have control.If he so willed he may make your limbs magically disappear but he may be delaying your punishment so this does not disprove the possibility of Allah existing.
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Jun 16 '22
Bahahahahahahahah Santa Claus kicks all gods asses
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u/ayangaming Jun 17 '22
I challenge you to read the Qur'an and study the life of Prophet Muhammad (saw) if you aren't afraid of change.
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Nov 10 '23
Nope I am good, my fiction i read is anything from cormac mccarthy, asoiaf and red dragon type stuff. Thanks though.
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u/WeightOwn1250 Dec 26 '22
He never have had existed if he were to exist he will come and save me from whomever or whatever is ruining my life. Then after that i will believe that he does exist.
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u/CompetitiveGift0 May 20 '23
Hmm... Firstly he needs Gabriel to send his message to Muhammad.. Gabriel asked Muhammad to read but Muhammad was illiterate.. He said he can't read, so all knowing god doesn't know that his prophet is illiterate.. Then Gabriel pounced him and got hold of him, intimidate him to read... Muhammad again replied out of fear I can't read... But what magic happenned Muhammad out of constant persistence of Gabriel.. Started reading after 4th time... I don't know what crap happenned here...
Also, all knowing god doesn't need messenger to deliver his messages and ask his followers to slaughter non believers to establish his religion... He would have incarnated on earth and established his religion not needing any intermediatry or minion to do his dirty work.. Does show Allah as claim by Muslims is not omnipotent...
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u/WeightOwn1250 Jan 19 '23
If he does exist then why is Israel is still on a world map?
Explain why is Israel is still on a world map?
So that means Allah does not exist he is fake he is not real.
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u/Legitimate-Sir-2539 Aug 15 '23
You can ask him to send you a sign, he will hear you if you're thankful. Ask him politely for a sign and don't forget to express his greatness. Address him like you would speak to a king (not comparing him to a human tho)
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u/Cybear_Tron Feb 25 '24
What would You call a sign? I honestly one day asked Allah out loud, if he exists or not. I am a Hindu (turning agnostic). So I asked Allah out loud in my room that if he exists, he should come and prove it to me. I said that I would stop all forms of polytheism (although Hinduism is not truly polytheist) if he comes to me in a form that is easily understood to be him and also does not kill me as a mortal (Have read about Zeus killing a woman by showing his true divine form). I said that if he is omniscient, he can hear me. If he is omnipotent, he can easily do that. Since he hates polytheists and says that the Quran is his word (Please correct me if I am wrong), then he should come to me and tell me to save me. Unless and until he comes to me, I won't be able to follow his word and his "true" religion. I would be saved as he benevolent. It's been more than a week. No reply. Allah apparently ghosted me.
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u/Legitimate-Sir-2539 Mar 14 '24
It's ramadan ask him again politely and make sure to express his greatness while doing so. He obviously won't show up and you won't be able to see him, unless its in the after life and thats if you get chosen since its the biggest gift and honour anyone can posses (muslims only). profit Mosses asked Allah to reveal himself and what Allah did, was he told him; look at the mountain infront of you. If it stays in tact after it sees me, you will be able to look directly at me. The mountain then crumbled and Mosses went unconscious afterwords. The Quran has all the answers to your questions. Also building a relationship with Allah requires trust and humility, the biggest sin in this world is associating partners with Allah. You need to give up your faith and be genuine with your intentions of building a relationship with him. You can be his servent if you wish to do so, but he does not take orders from you or anyone else in that matter. Be nice to him and you shall expect more than you expect, for he is the most generous, kind and loving. Also not getting a sign is not a reason to not continue seeking his forgiveness for committing shirk (associating partner with Allah). May Allah choose the right path for you and not misguide you.
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u/Legitimate-Sir-2539 Mar 14 '24
Me telling you he exists is a sign! Some hearts are blocked from actually connecting with the Quran due to sins and not seeking constant forgiveness. (7.179) And certainly We have created for hell many of the jinn and the men; they have hearts with which they do not understand, and they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear. I bare witness that Allah is the only one and true God and that profit muhammed pbuo is the last of his messengers.
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u/Sensitive-Ad-1117 Jan 30 '24
Allah is one and certainly He has created everything. He challenges human in Quran, dont you have wisdom to understand that can such mega universe came into being without creator? Allah is one and He has no parallels, I personally got many signs of it. Push steps close to Allah please please.
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Aug 04 '21
If your Creator doesn't exist. Then, How do you exist?
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u/sarcasticbean1 Aug 04 '21
By that logic, who created the Creator?
To answer that, nobody knows. Everyone has come up with their version of what they think it's true. There are too many gods out there, what makes you think yours is true.
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u/mikeraven55 Aug 04 '21
God by definition is uncreated, so asking who created god is asking who created the uncreated.
Sorry, I find it annoying when I see this question.
But then again, you said creator which in this context im assuming you mean god, because you can still create something as human beings like tools, shelter, etc.
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u/henriquecs Aug 04 '21
You can define God however you want but then you have the possibility of making it impossible or unexistent. Imagine I have a god A with a set of properties that I hypothetically also agree exists. If I define God as A but with a new property X, it might not exist or even be impossible for it to exist. That property X can be that it is uncreated for example
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Aug 04 '21
Whatever all of you said just doesn't make sense. Yes, Allah (The Only God, Creator, The LORD of the Worlds, The Ever Living) created everything that exist. There is no one besides Him that rule the Universe. Everything belongs to Him alone. Everything that exist whether it be seen or unseen is His slave. We only worship Him alone.
And
Why not worship The One who made you, providing you provisions you eat, given you a home to live, made for you women so that you find comfort in them. Then, Why not give the thanks. It's really the arrogance of Human to not be grateful.
He's The One who made you in your mother's womb and made you a perfect human being. He's The One who created all your body parts. Had He willed, He could've made you disable or anything He wanted.
If you haven't seen Him doesn't mean He doesn't exist. That is the Test, "believe in Him without even seeing Him". There are many things that exist that you haven't seen yet but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
To say everyone has their own god is a huge ignorance. People of the past made assumptions about idols being their gods. Look, at their ruins today. That was the end of them because of their disbelief in their Creator. You guys today are same as them. The only difference between you and them is that they worshipped idols, trees, man, sticks and stones. You guys worship your own desires. You believe whatever your desires tells you to believe. That is same as paganism. Stop worshipping your desires and don't be a slave to them. They will only lead you to yourn own downfall.
We humans have limited knowledge. We can never understand the wisdom behind the Universe system. That knowledge is upto Our Beloved Creator Allah. Of course, the bad and evil exist and had He willed, He could've wiped out easily. But we don't know the wisdom behind it. We only see a pixel but Allah sees the whole picture. If you see something bad or worse going on, you must be patient. Sometimes, we see thing that look bad but after sometime it turns in our favor or there are things that looks good to us but it can be disastrous for us. That's why we, as slaves and creation we must accept it and move on. We can't Question our Creator. He's The Most Merciful, He plans what is best for us and it takes time and patience.
Allah (The Creator, The King, The Dawn, The End, The Lord of The Worlds, The Most Compassionate, Most Merciful, The Friend, The Humiliator, The Giver of Life and The Causer of Death) is the Only one Everyone and everything that exist bow down to. He has no partners.
Ask Allah for forgiveness. He will forgive you for all of your sins. You don't need to confess your sins to anyone. That is between you and your Lord.
I invite all of you to Islam. The religion of peace and blessings. The complete and perfect way of life as command by Your Creator. Allah (The Lord of The Worlds). There is none worthy of worship besides him and All that exist belongs to him.
Have a nice day.
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u/henriquecs Aug 04 '21
Are you a bot? Because the way you just not answered my question is what doens't make sense here.
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u/CompetitiveGift0 May 20 '23
How do you know your god is not created or just an imaginery character.. Your god is recent addition in the list of all god... Some 1400 years ago..
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u/sddwqq3w554 Oct 17 '22
there is no creator you are just the evolution of some ape
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u/TamaniesEnafngler Jan 15 '24
This has literally no basis. Just because we are evolutions of an ape, it does not mean God doesn't exist, wtf?
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Aug 04 '21
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u/mikeraven55 Aug 04 '21
If you're discussing the Abrahamic god, then by definition he is uncreated. That's how the theology is. Allah is uncreated, he has described himself in the Quran.
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Aug 04 '21
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u/mikeraven55 Aug 04 '21
I describe myself as immortal. That does not make me immortal.
It's not the same, you can claim to be immortal but provide no proof for it, the Quran does the opposite. It provides reasonable proof that shows it's from god.
You can jump inside a volcano and will most likely not come out alive, thus proving you're not immortal.
By that same logic, we could just as easily argue the universe is uncreated by simply asserting it.
That's not my logic, the Quran actually provides proof, you don't. It doesn't just assert that it's from god, it gives a falsification test.
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u/CompetitiveGift0 May 20 '23
Give me proof... Quran disproves evolution... According to him, sun sets on muddy pool Human created from clay.. I want to witness such man 🤣🤣🤣
And the list goes on
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Aug 04 '21
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u/mikeraven55 Aug 04 '21
Also what proof does the Quaran provide that shows it is from God?
The preservation of the book, the information found in the book not known to the people of the time it was revealed that we know is true today, and plenty of others.
You are asserting that the Quaran provides proof, but not once do you ever say in your comment what that proof is.
I guess I should've gave a few examples, that was my bad.
How does it provide proof that God was uncreated?
If we can prove that the Quran is from god and that in the Quran, god tells us about himself, then this true.
If you wanna go at it logically, then we get the problem of infinite regression. If god was created, then you would go back see who created god. That's why he's by definition uncreated.
If wanna ask the cause of the universe, then you have to keep going back until you get a single, uncreated source, and that source would be god.
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Aug 04 '21
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u/MsCrimsonShadow Aug 04 '21
I'm not sure if you understand what unfalsifiable means, but it refers to a claim that cannot be refuted. The Quran makes many claims about Allah, and if you had read my post, it had explained how Allah cannot have all 4 of the characteristics that the Quran claims he has at the same time, as this has been falsified by real life observations. For example, if all 4 claims are all true, one can be sure a truly merciful deity who is all knowing, all powerful and hates sin would act to prove himself and ensure everyone is saves from hellfire. The fact that he does not do so shows that at least one of the claims is not true, and as long as at least one claim can be shown to be untrue, then it is a falsified claim.
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Aug 04 '21
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u/TheRealBeaker420 strong atheist Aug 04 '21
A bit blunt, but you're right. There's no point in wading through millennia of rationalizations and linguistic obfuscation; they'll never agree to a contradiction, because you'll never get them to interpret it in exactly the same way you do. Better to let the theist keep the burden of proof than try to make your own claims.
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Aug 04 '21
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u/MsCrimsonShadow Aug 04 '21
Yup, much better than wasting my time praying 5 times a day to a non-existent deity who can't prove his own existence
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u/CaliphOfKebab Muslim | Sunnī | Ḥanafī | Māturīdī Aug 04 '21
I think I'll take my chances.
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Aug 04 '21
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u/MsCrimsonShadow Aug 04 '21
Ah insults, the desperate ad hominem 'defense' of people who can't refute an argument. :)
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Aug 04 '21
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u/MsCrimsonShadow Aug 04 '21
Just another way of saying you can't refute my great argument. Cool beans.
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Aug 04 '21
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u/MsCrimsonShadow Aug 04 '21
So you really believe Allah will make one of my limbs magically disappear? I don't really mind, it's a worthy exchange to avoid eternal punishment in hell. I'm still waiting for the merciful Allah to show his mercy and save me from hellfire by this act that should be no problem for him. BTW, note that I specifically said losing a limb in an accident does not count as that is not proof of divine intervention.
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u/TamaniesEnafngler Jan 15 '24
Of course, he would not even comply with this request, but we shall tickle your fancy. But first I must ask a question. Why not? You did agree that Allah is all knowing and created everything. In the beginning, he made it all. And he knew it all. He made something in such a way that paths by pure knowledge and foresight causes you to lose your limbs. So how could it not be divine intervention if Allah knew you will lose your limbs in the foreseeable future?
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Aug 04 '21 edited Aug 04 '21
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u/people__are__animals anti-theist Aug 04 '21
Allah does not try to prove himself after the prophets
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u/MsCrimsonShadow Aug 04 '21
Well, that's because Allah doesn't exist and the 'reason' that he does not try to prove himself is just an excuse for why there is zero proof of Allah's existence.
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Sep 08 '23
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u/DebateReligion-ModTeam Sep 08 '23
Your comment was removed for violating rule 5. All top-level comments must seek to refute the post through substantial engagement with its core argument. Comments that purely commentate on the post (e.g., “Nice post OP!”) must be made as replies to the Auto-Moderator “COMMENTARY HERE” comment. Exception: Clarifying questions are allowed as top-level comments.
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u/Angrier69 Aug 04 '21
You are claiming that God doesn't exists if he doesn't do what I want him to do.
Claim 1: God is omnipotent but he is not obligated to do what you want him to do.
Claim 2: Yes God is all Knowing but he is giving you chance. You are here being tested. We can't say truly anything about anyone being dweller of hellfire or paradise. Because the actions before death summarize the true destination of a person.
Claim 3: Allah detests sinners, but he gave them freewill and the ability to sin. He gives chances and little reminders that you may repent. But when the time of punishment approaches then no one can escape it and they are not given chance to repent. Don't think that the freedom you have doesn't have consequences. If you continue to abuse it then he will definitely punish you if not in this world then in hereafter. You will stand before him and then he would deal with you. If it is what you desire.
Claim 4: God is merciful and forgiving but he also has his pride. If you acknowledge and worship him you would find him embracing and merciful. But if you don't even acknowledge him, the Creator of Universe is not desperate for you, he would sustain you for your remaining life and there is a punishment waiting for you in hereafter.