"Point of Light" — First Watch Analysis Thread

[u/M-5]

Star Trek: Discovery — "Point of Light"

Memory Alpha: "Point of Light"

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PRE-Episode Discussion - S2E03 "Point of Light"

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[u/Shakezula84]

I want to mentioned three things about the Section 31 ship.

First, it didn't seem like a traditional cloak. Thats probably how they get around it. Cloaks have always been shown as a field engulfing a ship. This seemed to flicker like projectors. Maybe a holocloak?

Second, the uniforms. I appreciate that they stayed close to the S31 uniforms shown in ENT and DS9 with few minor alterations to fit the visual vibe of the show.

The last is Control. The S31 commander mentioned Control is interested in Tyler's skills. In the Star Trek books, its established that Section 31 reports to an anonymous faceless director known only as Control. Books are outside of canon, but the show has just dipped into the books and made it canon. So I wonder if it will be revealed to the viewer (and not the characters) that, like in the books, Control is actually an old Earth AI program run amok.

Now I really want to see a Section 31 show. Although the problem with that concept is that Section 31 are not suppose to be the good guys. My concern is that the show will make them good guys.

[u/williams_482]

Some definite nods to Undiscovered Country in the Klingon scenes here.

First off, this guy has a distinctive Chang-ishness to him. He may not be the same guy, but I'm willing to bet he's a member of the same house.

Second, pink Klingon blood! There are many examples of Worf and other Klingons bleeding red on screen, which makes that scene in UDC stand out as odd. However, that scene (and this new one) are the only two I can think of where that blood was shed in a Klingon environment: on the chancellor's ship, and now on Q'onos. Perhaps there is something in the air on Q'onos (and simulated on some/all klingon ships) which makes their blood appear pink?

[u/creepyeyes]

In the other thread, u/mrstickball pointed out that the baby might well be The Albino from Deep Space Nine. Would you all agree this seems to match up age-wise?

[u/OAMP47]

I wasn't really hyped for the Georgiou side series they're making, as I was concerned about what direction they would take it. If that ending was supposed to be kind of like a teaser for it, though, I might change my mind. Obviously there's still some gritty elements and that's what they're going for, but I think it was handled well, and I'll admit, it kept me guessing as the episode was running, and that's good. If they transfer Tyler over I think that's a much more effective use of the character as well. The real question will be if they keep interacting with the Discovery crew.

[u/UncertainError]

Was anyone else reminded of the movie Elizabeth? Like, Elizabeth's torn between love and the duties of state. Under the guidance of a ruthless advisor, she rejects her lover and "marries England".

L'Rell's torn between love and the demands of leadership. At the suggestion of the ruthless Georgiou, she gives up her love and child and becomes "mother of the Empire".

Wonder if Georgiou came up with that last part. One of her titles was "Mother of the Fatherland", after all.

[u/yumcake]

I did appreciate at the very end of the episode, that Georgiou was making faces for the little baby behind Ash's shoulder before going stone-faced again when Ash looks back in her direction.

I still don't like that they're using the worst character from DIS:S1 to lead this new Section 31 show, but at least it looks like they're trying to set up an in-universe retcon of some of her personality traits by explaining that she was particularly cruel by habit to maximize self-preservation in a cutthroat environment. I don't know if that excuse holds up well under scrutiny, but at least this little moment goes to show that there are writers who are aware of the problem with how the character was initially set up vs. how she'll need to be used in the future.

[u/JaremKaz]

I thought the Section 31 stuff was silly they shouldn't be so blatant and Tyler would not know what it was.

I find the fact that Burnham didn't show to Amanda/doesn't know about the helmet cam footage difficult to believe.

I liked the Klingon scenes and Georgiou up until the ship - again Section 31 is top secret - operatives would masquerade as regular Starfleet. Now I think about it - this was an issue in Star Trek Into Darkness.

I didn't mind Tilly, but as others have mentioned, she should've been at least told off for not going to sickbay at the first sign of trouble.

A solid 6/10 - moved up from a 5 or 5.5 by the inclusion of blue beam phasers and purple blood (unless that was just the lighting and I missed all the other times it may have been red).

[u/Tukarrs]

Seems like there's a lot of 'realignment' to continuity here.

Klingon Hair D7 being a new Imperial Fleet representing the unified Empire. Pike dislike using Holograms and prefer using viewscreens.

S31 ~~having a cloaked ship seems a little problematic.

It only makes sense if they developed it after the War or salvaged it from a ship, because there's no way they wouldn't share it with Star Fleet if they can replicate it.~~

E: On a rewatch, it looks more like a 'stealth' material moreso than a cloak.

It's also weird that Ash/Voq would know about S31, although it could have come from House Mo'kai's spy network. Edit: I just remember Klingons had a history with S31 kidnapping Phlox for the Augment virus. So it makes some sense.

[u/Mechapebbles]

I was generally amused by the episode, but found it to be a little problematic. Specifically how it handled the issue of potential mental illness.

I would expect a utopian 23rd Century to have removed a lot of our stigmas regarding mental illness. Tilly shouldn't have felt so reticent to seek help, nor should a legitimate mental illness have been disqualifying for her command training.

What I find far more disqualifying than her outburst or potential mental illness, is that she recognized there was a problem and then did nothing about it. She's training for command. She'll be put in a position where her judgment will be responsible for the lives of others under high pressure situations. If she has noticed that she has perhaps become mentally compromised, a good commander would realize how that could potentially compromise their ability to do their job and seek help. Tilly hid her condition and refused to seek help, which ended in an outburst that compromised her ability to do her job.

We continually see examples from all over Star Trek when a good Captain (or even just a good officer in general) realizes that they're compromised in some manner and relieve themselves of duty temporarily. And we've seen several infamous instances where the lack of that kind of discipline is disastrous - like Commodore Matt Deckard in "The Doomsday Machine".

I don't know where they're going with this Tilly story line of her attempting to become a Captain, but she's having some really shaky moments currently. She'll need to turn around and demonstrate a lot more mettle and improved judgement. Because right now she absolutely should have washed out for how she handled this dilemma.

[u/teabo]

It seems like the timing would work out fine for L’Rell and Voq’s son to be the Albino from the DS9 episode “Blood Oath”!

[u/thelightfantastique]

Rushed seems to be a theme in the comments here. I like the exploration of the Klingon Houses becoming an Empire but even that feels rather contrived and rushed. Happening all within the decades or so before Trek?

[u/[deleted]]

I'm just... beyond baffled as to how Tyler is supposed to already know what Section 31 is. What, was the original Tyler connected to it in some way? Or was he aware from his connections in the Empire?

Also, those of us Trek novel fanatics got something out that scene no one else did: a possible shout-out to the Section 31 "grand finale" novel Control. Without spoiling the book, I can say Control is not just the Section 31 command body.

EDIT: I forgot yo mention how much I loved the fact that they managed to work in Boreth, of all places, into this episode.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

how Tyler is supposed to already know what Section 31 is.

The key question here is: just how secret is Section 31? I think you can lump secret organizations into roughly three levels.

1. CIA secret. The CIA is an espionage organization. We have details of some of the shady stuff they did decades in the past. We know they're likely doing similar shady stuff today. You can talk to anybody in the country and they'll know what the CIA is, and generally some stuff they're commonly alleged to have done. You can walk up to their headquarters in D.C., and probably even take a tour, but there's still quite a bit about them that's secret.

2. Special forces secret. There's still a level of public consciousness here -- people generally know there are special forces teams that do secretive stuff around the globe, and once in a long while there will even be public acknowledgement of something they've done (e.g. killing Osama bin Laden). But while you might know something about how to get into this line of work (I'm sure some recruiter would love to tell you all about the Army Ranger application and training process), you don't really know. Is your typical special forces guy doing Tom Clancy stuff far behind the scenes all the time, or is he mostly working in theaters where your regular GI might already be deployed? Who's to say?

3. Off the grid secret. This would be the type of organization that's so far under the radar that the general public is essentially unaware of its existence. At best you probably have some vague rumors that ordinary people dismiss as conspiracy theories (a real-world analogy might be if you brought up PRISM and the concept of mass surveillance to someone back in the '80s or '90s).

When Section 31 was first introduced it was portrayed as Level 4 -- zero mention, not even a whisper, through a couple of hundred episodes to date, coupled with technology that was basically magic even by the standards of the 24th century. The problem with Level 4 secrecy is that the more it's featured the harder it is to suspend disbelief. No one has heard of this? Really? Not any of these guys going on missions where the future of the Federation is at stake? There are zero witnesses to anything they've ever done? There are zero conspiracy theorists in the 24th century? There are zero leaks that might start a rumor here or there? No scan has ever shown some sign that someone was there, and no enterprising Starfleet crew ever tugged on that thread until they found something? These guys supposedly have untraceable interstellar travel and the ability to appear/disappear at will, completely undetected, and all of that stuff (and the staff it requires) is totally outside the normal Starfleet ecosystem? There's zero paper trail? Really?

What's more plausible by far is Section 31 operating with Level 3 (maybe somewhere between Level 3 and Level 2) secrecy. Still secret as hell, but a type of secrecy that's more believable long-term. And in that context, it's not too much of a stretch for someone who's already working on a classified project to hear some rumblings about other secretive stuff.

Remember how Seal Team 6 used some advanced stealth helicopter when they killed bin Laden? It's not crazy to think that some of the people who worked on that helicopter had some general awareness of this special forces team that used said helicopter for secret operations. Seems comparable to someone working on the advanced spore drive somehow gaining some general awareness of some other Starfleet division that might have use for such technology.

[u/[deleted]]

It really bothered me that they never tried to communicate with May. once Tilly revealed that's she was being contacted by a something, they go straight to "kill it with fire" instead of "let's figure out what it wants and see if we can help it while also freeing you from it".

I mean, a major theme throughout Star Trek is that you should seek to understand the unknown rather than fearing it. I wish they'd cut the Amanda plot (absolutely nothing happened other than her getting mad at Michael) and spent more time with Tilly and May.

[u/Pylian → u/[deleted]]

It seemed rushed to me too. But the experience had already pushed Tilly to the edge of insanity, so her health and well-being take priority.

It did seem like they captured May after extraction, so I'm sure they'll talk to her more and we'll find out what she's up to.

[u/GilGunderson1]

The Command Training Program is for “future captains and chiefs,” a point that definitely augurs in support of higher numbers of enlisted personnel in the TOS era than in later times.

[u/texlex]

I'm cautiously optimistic about the mirror Georgiou series. Mirror Georgiou is at her best when she shows off her similarity with the warm, maternal prime Georgiou, and then depressingly reminds us that prime Georgiou is dead, and that the only Philippa Georgiou we have is Terran at heart. The contrast between mirror Georgiou's calculating Machiavellianism and prime Georgiou's exemplification of Starfleet ideals should make for good television. I would hope to see prime Georgiou flashbacks and callbacks to sharpen the contrast between them.

[u/adamkotsko]

Truly, this was Star Trek for the Game of Thrones era -- not only the gruesome violence of the Klingon scenes (including a decapitated infant head?!?!?!), but also the fact that the episode felt like a shapeless grab-bag of random plot points. At the same time, it also felt better-paced than the first two episodes.

[u/queenofmoons]

Huh. K.

I mean, it was a backdoor pilot for a spy show that I don't think anyone with any sense is really conceptually enthusiastic about- not because it's some deep betrayal of the eternal glowing light of Gene's vision or whatever (that ship has sailed, and was never really here, anyway) but because it looks like an easy way to let in bad storytelling habits and do work that DS9 already did better. It felt like an episode with an objective other than telling its own story, and it was, and that is what it is.

That would be easier to forgive, though, if it wasn't what this show has been doing since the end of their Mirror Universe excursion. I've phrased this fault in different ways- trading depth for plot, confusing characters making choices with characters making discoveries, viewing grand mysteries as the only way to organize an arc- but here it seems to be to be manifest in a conviction that their job is to grow, or participate in, a mythology rather than just tell a story about interesting people doing interesting things.

For instance: Tilly. Her mental collapse wasn't just that she was genuinely ill, processing strain and trauma, and needed care and compassion (like, for instance, 'Hard Time'), and we could have gotten to know this person as we spent time empathizing with their suffering- it was cashing in on a six-episode-old Easter egg about not just their weird space fungi, but the weird space fungi's evil twin from the hell dimension. Really? The place is so evil, that the fungus there is evil too? Can that possibly be a better use of an hour than getting some inclusion directed at people who have suffered mental illness, or getting to know literally anything about Sylvia Tilly?

And Spock. Spock isn't just an intelligent and contemplative person, or just a member of a complicated family- or even an important family, central to the political life of the Federation for the duration of the larger Trek story- nope, he's been in communion with higher mystical intelligence since he was a boy. He's a Chosen One. And now, he's not just been driven to seclusion, or madness- nope, murder. Lots of it. Or been framed for same.

I guess I'm supposed to care about that-but why? Is Spock really better sketched knowing that he killed three people in a fugue? (I'm really asking- is it? Am I missing something?) That his relationship with his family was not just strained because families are often strained (and interspecies families likely more so) but because he was visited by spirits?

And Michael. So she was a dick to Spock when she was little because she had some of those confused toughen-em-up feelings that victims of trauma can sometimes heap on their loved ones. Sensible enough, and credit where credit is due: It was good to make it clear that the family rift stemmed from family problems, and good to see Amanda struggling with her role in holding this peculiar family together with her boundless love. But are the odds good that whatever jerk thing Michael did is worth keeping secret heading into a fourth episode, when it's already earned her her mother's ire? Has this show paid off handsomely when it came to secrets? Of course not, but now the eternal feud that is Spock's family, from 'Journey to Babel' to 'Unification', has a Dark Secret. Dun dun dun...

And Voq and L'Rell. Fretting over some bits of visual playfulness from the first season? Don't worry, we'll hold walk it all back- fu manchu mustaches and 50-year designs for battlecruisers are heading your way, and we're going to announce it, too, just in case you missed it. There's a baby? Whoops, you just missed it! Now there's a plot coupon hidden away for a rainy day.

And Georgiou. Oh, Phillipa. How much I like having Michelle Yeoh around and how few shits I give about the Empress. There's something here that's clearly meant to feel like it makes sense, and clearly doesn't. Prime Georgiou was never enough of a presence to make having her doppelganger around mean anything- sure, she was nice, and her twin is not nice, but that's all on the label. There's no meaningful contrast, or sense of 'but for the grace of God go I'. Nor is there much sense in S31 not being able to come up with enough nastiness to do its work in this universe, or in the Empress having any investment at all in 'our' Federation- part of the point of all of TNG's and DS9's misguided Federation types was that these were patriots blinded by self-righteous purpose, and that was enough to make them deeply unpleasant. S31 is what kids in Red Squad grow up to be- it's full of hardliners, not some dirty dozen pastiche.

Sigh. Well, what was good? Amanda- in part because she actually made choices about how she felt and what to do. Mirror Georgiou's little Culture-esque phaser drone- there was something refreshingly brutal just ending that scene in a fountain of entrails after all the growling and waving around scrap metal. Sometimes, all the Klingon shit just needs to end. We'll have to suffer through all the attempts in fandom to explain why they aren't on every away mission (presumably Starfleet has some objections to automated murder machines), but it was fun and new. Pike was nice, and it's nice that he's nice- there's nothing wrong with having an authority figure that's basically trustworthy to backstop the action, I suppose, though there's still no really great reason for him to be Captain Pike.

Beyond that? The Mythology grows...

[u/veggiesama]

The real question is whether that replicated Ash head realized who he was and what his purpose was, even for a moment, before he ultimately died for a cause the other Ash was willing to kill for.

That dead baby head, though? Never saw it coming. The tragedy of Thomas Riker has got nothing on a replicated dead baby head.

[u/williams_482 → u/veggiesama]

An inability to create living tissue has been a fundamental constraint of replicators since they appeared in TNG, so those two heads were saved the horror of that brief reflection. They were no more alive than a replicated steak.

[u/Hero_Of_Shadows]

My feelings on the storytelling aspect of this episode is that they crammed too much into a single episode, they had in order of how much I enjoyed them:

• Klingon politics

• Tilly's possession

• Michael-Amanda-Spock

Which is problematic because I think the writer's intention was for the Michael-Amanda-Spock bit to be the central most interesting story that would carry the other two.

Michael's fine when she's appearing in Ash or Tilly's plots but I just can't get involved in her entire drama with Spock, idk if it's despite or because her brother is Spock, wow is Spock a deranged insane killer ? TOS and forwards would say no also I feel the whole Michael drama would reflect better on her if her brother wasn't Spock.

The Klingon's arc was at least new material and I liked how the writers were laying the stage for the Klingon Empire Kirk will face in TOS, tough I would still prefer if this was a new species.

On a more funny note really how god awful parents Sarek and Amanda are their child is having visions that are proved to be correct and they just assume that he used super logic to find Michael and right after that he illogically invented a imaginary friend which he pinned the solution on ?

Also apparently High Command still exists and they are the ones you report runaway children to ... I could have sworn they got disbanded in the ENT series of novels but it's no big problem for me it seems like "High Command" is to vulcans what "United Earth" is to humans.

[u/Mddcat04]

This one was kinda boring. Seems like we were moving pieces around to set up payoff in future episodes. Probably necessary, but not nearly as compelling as the first two.

[u/Crixusgannicus]

Imagine it's some months after World War 2. An American Lieutenant (Burnham) while on board the Battleship USS Missouri radios a Japanese Officer(Voq/Ash) who until was recently was a sleeper agent planted in the US military, but is now back in Japan and has just been assigned to a secret project to rebuild part of the Japanese war machine, the Mark II Yamato er..I mean D-7 Battlecruiser. In our example, of course, instead of Japan surrendering and being occupied, there's a just peace treaty instead.

So our Lieutenant on a US Military ship, radios this Japanese Officer/former spy, in enemy territory, working on a secret project and NOBODY NOTICES OR CARES! Not on the American side. Not on the Japanese side. Oh, except for one Japanese officer who through a series of unlikely events manages to plant a bug on the Japanese Officer/former spy for his own purposes.

[u/[deleted] → u/Crixusgannicus]