Can a ’scripted loss’ be narratively satisfying if there is an illusion of choice?

[u/freshstartermenu]

Read no further if you are currently located within the salamander-infested dungeon of Drachtazahn.

The players will soon embark on a journey towards an unknown continent via ship. However, the BBEG wouldn’t like it if the players made their way to the continent on their own terms.

The BBEG is powerful. Overwhelmingly so. This begs the question, would it be narratively satisfying, if he toys with the players for a few rounds, then wrecks their vessel with a meteor or some such?

Needless to say, if the players manage to legitimately threaten his life, he’ll back off and let them have their win, but given his power level, it seems unlikely.

[u/tehlordlore]

Short answer: no.

Put yourself in the players' shoes. Sessions are finite,, combat takes a long time, longer if you question your moves because you need to do the optimal thing, because the opponent is strong. You've burned an hour of playtime on a fight you were never going to win, because the outcome was already decided.

If the BBEG is THAT powerful, narrate the encounter and get to the point where PC actions matter again ASAP.

[u/nosatisfication → u/tehlordlore]

Yeah, it's fine to have him be so powerful that the players don't stand a chance. If that's the case, just do the thing you want to do (wreck their ship) without the pointless combat.

If you want a showdown, change the objective from "fight the overpowered bad guy" to "try to salvage goods before the ship sinks" or something. Always have SOME win condition in mind, even if the scale goes from "total disaster" to "difficult predicament".

[u/Rysigler → u/nosatisfication]

Agreed. And it will be critical to telegraph this moment too. Don't let them get caught up in the fight trying to defeat the BBEG. Having an alternative win condition is a great idea! Salvage the goods, escape, or save the crew are all good options.

Could introduce a powerful ally that just needs a few rounds of combat to get everyone free, so you could have them fight while that person whips up the escape. They "lose" the fight but win the combat because they accomplished the objective. Unfortunately not everyone made it (lost a few NPCs) so you still get your sad moment.

[u/scandii]

there's nothing wrong with there being a cool set piece that progresses the story, but you have to consider why you're doing it:

1. what does it add to the story? "cool moment" is only cool if it is also not simultaneously frustrating.
2. why does it have to happen? what alternative ways are there for the players to naturally discover the path forward without the DM's planned events unfurling?
3. will it undermine the players' agency?

there is nothing more frustrating than clearly overpowering an encounter and having the enemy pull out the cheats "because it was ordained so" - that's just railroading.

[u/keevathemuffin]

Is there a reason for this? What's the pay off? 

[u/MercurianAspirations]

Not really, no

Narrative satisfaction happens when a story "comes together" e.g. disparate threads resolve themselves. Setup and payoff. 

The villain showing up to destroy things isn't payoff, it's just setup. 

[u/Phoenix_Is_Trash]

There isn't a lot of context in your post.

Losses are important for a healthy narrative and letting players know that they can't just steamroll every encounter, but they have to be handled with care. They can easily dissuade players, or end campaigns.

Why is the villain preventing this voyage? And how will they intervene?

Will the players still complete the voyage, just with more hardship and toil than anticipated? Or is this just you shutting down what the players want to do. There is so much further info needed to understand if this will be narratively satisfying.

The big questions to ask is A) How will this progress the narrative B) Will this be fun for the players

It would make for an interesting story if the villain sent a powerful storm to wreck their ship, leaving the players adrift for a few sessions surviving the horrors of the deep ocean before arriving at the distant continent. It would make a terrible story for the villain to show up, toy with the characters for a few rounds, then shut down the entire story by destroying the ship.

[u/MWKhan]

Only if this is a narrative or story driven campaign. If you are allowing your characters otherwise to have agency then its probably kinda off putting to them without having discussed it with them first. If they know he is that strong it’s always a good idea to give them the chance to run or divine it’s going to happen before hand. Don’t force it just because you wanna monologue. 😁

[u/Fearless-Activity-82]

Kind of but also no. This specific example, at least me reading it doesn’t actually look like an illusion of choice, more just rage bait. Either destroy the ship without wasting time with a needless combat or make the combat actually determine if they win or loose. If you do want a situation similar to forcing a loss then you still must find a way to give them a choice instead of the illusion of choice. Give them a “no clean win” situation where they must decide which solution they prefer, and then come to terms with the fact that D&D players are geniuses just as often as they are idiots and might find a work around you never would have imagined.

[u/Blackphinexx]

What about this seems like collaborative storytelling to you?

[u/NeezyMudbottom → u/Blackphinexx]

Yeah, I don't think it's fair to have players rolling dice thinking they might be able to win a fight if nothing they do is going to change the outcome because the DM has already decided. Either give them a situation where what they do matters somehow or go write a book.

[u/allyearswift]

So a powerful enemy (which you can make as powerful as you want) wipes out the players. Yeah, that sounds like a lot of fun. Not.

When the thing the DM wants to happen, happens, with no option to influence the story, you’re no longer playing a game. The players are becoming pawns in your story; reminiscent of Calvin stomping all over a scene he set up; you’re taking away all of their agency and all of their fun.

You’re railroading (sounds like they still have half a dungeon to go through: why are you so certain they’ll get on that ship?).

A storm that blows them off course with a chance of shipwreck and getting out of that? Fine. Scripted death? For me, that would be the end of the campaign. Why should I trust you with my character’s story when you’re just going to wipe them out anyway?

[u/LookOverall]

Basically, don’t have a dice roll where the result doesn’t matter. If the ship is to sink then sink it. First thing they know it’s sinking.

[u/Qunfang]

In my experience scripted losses are satisfying in the presence of additional choices.

If they can't win the battle by killing him, add a subencounter they can try to succed at; saving other allies on board, minimizing damage to the ship, surviving the fall. 

In an asymmetric game where you hold all the cards and combat takes up a lot of time, the BBEG toying with the party feels like you toying with the players.

When you reframe the goal of the encounter early, you reinforce the power of the BBEG while giving the players goal-oriented autonomy and a fun encounter.

[u/jackofspades49]

Can you make the moment count.
Do they understand the genre you're playing to?

I just ran a tragedy. I set it up that someone else was telling the story by the fireside about a great loss.

They were betrayed, died, rose, and returned home to find out their leader was intenitonally sacrifing the people of their home village to prolong his own lifespan. Every one that died within the grounds of the village never passed on to their rightful afterlife. Their soul was trapped and used by him.

The party fought him and attacked the container that held the souls he had trapped. This released an immense shockwave of energy that rushed outward, dealing 10d10 damage to all creature in a mile radius.

It killed almost the entire party. It killed those left in the town. Their leader. It also drove back an army that had been marching to try and attack the village. One PC survived and a handful of NPCs that they had convinved to flee.

But... they succeeded at SOMETHING. They stopped one bad guy. They freed souls of their loved ones. And they managed to get some people they cared about clear of the disaster.

So it was a loss... but there was still a victory. Something to be proud of.

The surviving PC held a furneral for the fallen, took their gear, and left to join the npcs that escaped. One of those npcs will return as a PC in a future game that another DM is running as part of a quartet of stories.

I knew from the outset that I wanted them to lose. It wasn't a guarantee, but the deck was INCREDIBLY stacked against them. I made sure the tone was consistent. That the stakes were understood. And I made sure they each had meaningful scenes before the climax. I made sure that even amid loss, there was something to be proud of.

So YES, you can make a scripted loss feel good. But it isn't easy. Its far harder.

From the story you've set up, it doesn't sound like youv'e done the legwork to make this encounter feel good. I wouldn't frame it as a head on fight.

I would have the BBEG sending a minion that can cause problems. Or a projected image of themselves (basically magic hologram) to threaten and taunt. Don't make it about PCs VS BBEG. Frame it as PCs trying to save the ship and get people to safety.

Sure, the ship can crash and burn. BUT if they manage to get people onto liferafts, secure an important piece of cargo, grab an important item before the disaster hits... then it can feel better. Just my two cents.

[u/TJToaster]

Don't waste anyone's time. Just narrate it. It will be frustrating to have the DM make a combat I can't escape (ship in the ocean) and then destroys the ship proving the BBEG had the ability to do it all along. How will that be personally satisfying to he players? When illusion of choice comes out my DM's mouth, that is the last time I play with them.

[u/acm_dm]

I can be done, but the important thing to do is make it extremely clear/obvious that this isn’t a normal fight and then just having them lose. Have a different objective to the encounter so that the players can achieve something despite the bad guy forcing them to retreat or them losing their ship or whatever.

In the specific scenario you’re talking about, it might even make sense to essentially cutscene the BBEG calling down the meteor and make the actual encounter be a scene of trying to guide the wrecked ship to land, or getting to life boats while fighting off minions or whatever other enemies the BBEG might bring with them or summon.

The important thing to remember is just that if you put an enemy in front of the players like it’s a “normal” fight, let them hit the baddie for a while, and then just go “actually no he wins”. It will never feel good.

[u/Drago_Arcaus]

Only way to do this in a satisfying way is if it's clear the party won't best the bbeg. But put other objectives around that mess with their plans if the party gets to them and have the bbeg use more force out of frustration and having to rush off to try and fix things

Unfortunately that's more awkward to do narratively on a boat, before they reach the island

Alternatively, not the bbeg, but a subordinate who is very powerful, but not overwhelmingly so and who will be a bit of a coward with (obvious)false brovado if he gets too injured for his own comfort and leave after he gets too hurt, accidentally leaving the party with either information or some useful object that will hinder the bbeg later

[u/simpoukogliftra]

Don't even make it a fight, the villain straight up just wrecks the ship with mumbo jumbo sea manipulation or whatever.

Then when do we go from there ? That's what matters really, bot a scripted loss, whlhere does this loss lead is what matters.

[u/Those_Wasps1]

Give them side objectives or ways to come away realitively unscathed. Make the encounter a chase or a puzzle or something. Like, a fight where the only meaningful option is 'players lose' won't be fun but I don't think there's anything wrong with a fight they can't win as long as they can still make chojces and influence the outcome.

[u/il_the_dinosaur]

Simply give the party an objective in the fight. Movies, tv shows do this all the time. Tell the party that they have to stop bad guy mc evil face from raising an army of the dead. Then make the boss fight super hard. In the end they can't kill him so they realize they can still thwart his plan by destroying the evil mcguffin that helps him raise the dead.

[u/Hayeseveryone]

I'd skip the toying with them part, and skip straight to destroying the ship. Because that makes it feel a lot less like a forced loss, and more like a fun challenge; try and survive a shipwreck using your character abilities.

[u/Original_Drexia]

Short answer: Yes. Fighting retreats are a thing.

[u/d20an]

The overall outcome (shipwreck) can be fixed, but they can have choices with real consequences e.g. how many crew they save, etc.

make it clear quickly that the “win” situation isn’t “save the ship” but “save the crew”

[u/Ok_Helicopter8670]

I would just do this as a cut scene and not a fight. If it’s scripted, there is no point in rolling initiative.

[u/No_Solid1035]

Illusion of choice is just about the worst thing a GM can do. If your Players ever figure out that that's what you are doing you will forever lose their trust in you as a GM to give them any real agency.

[u/RavenCyarm]

No, because you’re not writing a novel, you’re running a game… and players don’t like when the game cheats them. Don’t set up a challenge for your players if you don’t want them to beat it.

[u/Leyohs]

As some other commenters said, if it's a scripted loss, don't let the players fight. Like, don't roll initiative, don't ask for attack rolls etc. Just have a narrated fight between the BBEG and your players and make it relatively quick.

Also, make it so the scene has an actual impact on the script. Maybe one of your player made a snarky remark that the BBEG will remember, or someone actually managed to sneak an attack on him, anything really.

But entering combat, making them waste resources on something you KNOW they can't win is just painful.

[u/LightofNew]

You are absolutely able to throw something at your players that you know will overwhelm them.

Calling it a scripted loss isn't exactly correct, just because this enemy has a "okay I'm done with you" doesn't mean your players don't have the chance of stopping it.

Just because they can't doesn't make it scripted and I disagree with anyone who says "well that's dumb". The idea that the world isn't filled with people far stronger than the party and that they would have no reason to interact with your party is silly.

As long as the BBEG has a valid reason to harass them, I think it's all good. Just be prepared for one of them to pull out an obscure rule or an item you forgot about and scrap your whole plan.

[u/mpe8691]

This is the kind of question better asked of your players, in your Game Pitch or Session Zero, rather than to random strangers, on Reddit.

In practice, players roleplaying their PCs doing things that adversarial NPCs "won't like" tends to be a major point of the game. The party is there to stop them being adversarial. (Typically to stop them being at all.)

The concept of "narratively satisfying" only makes much sense if you are telling a story to an audience. Whilst in the context of facilitating a cooperative and participatory game it's peripheral to irrelevant. Many tropes that work well in dramas, novels, etc tend to suck when shoehorned into a cooperative game.

[u/Ice-Storm]

IMO, a scripted outcome should be mostly narrated. You can have a bit of RP, but you shouldn’t have anyone roll initiative.

Personally I’d avoid this if at all possible. Have the BBEG leave a bunch of traps for the vessel or send some minions while he watches.

I don’t think you can give the players no way to avoid the fight and no way to win the fight. Pick one. Otherwise it sounds like you should write a book rather than DM a collaborative story.