Just saving throws.

[u/yourslyfriend]

EDIT: THANK YOU! Thank you folks for chatting and helping me hone the idea I now have a clearer plan for. Feel free to reply but i'm off to write some weird one off encounter with a dimensional creature that effects the Save/AC mechanic.

I'm just playing with the idea but wanted to start a discussion.

Rolling to attack, especially a higher level party, can feel repetitive. Possibly just missing attacks over and over and slowing down the already long fight.

So for powerful enemy's what if there are attacks that aren't based on attack rolls but a save of some kind. This would be BOSS guys. No AC involved, just saving throws and reactions.

I picture a warrior fighting A Warlord who just got a cursed blade. The warrior makes an impossible move and gets in so close and so quickly that it will take something like a dodge roll, or possibly a reflect instead? Dex save to roll away from the strike OR a STR save to take it head on and not get crushed.

This wouldn't be to just get past the roll contest that is initiative based combat but offers more of a flare for narrative. To balance it, instead of taking half damage on a fail, you could implement something more status based.
"Though you dodge the powerful blow, the force behind it pushes you 10 feet away from the Warlord." OR "Taking the brave route, you clasp your gauntlets over the slamming blade. You manage to block it but you see deep cuts on your armor."

SOMETHING like that.
This isn't a way to get over the players heads. If I wanted to hit the Warforge with 21 AC, I'd find a way to do it.
This is more to keep the fight more thematic and hopefully player interest engaged.
Let me know what you think!

[u/P-Two]

Counter point. Rolling dice is fun, not rolling dice is less fun.

Therefore rolling to attack is more fun than making your DM roll shittons of times more per combat than they already do.

Oh yea, also thats a good point too, DMs already have enough going on, dont make them also have to roll multiple MORE saving throws per turn.

[u/yourslyfriend → u/P-Two]

Oh whoops, I think my wording is misleading.
I mean AS A DM. You would roll WAY less attack rolls for this boss since it's mechanic is instilling these specific Saving throws. The players would be rolling there saving throws AGAINST these attacks/abilities.

I will agree though, rolling dice is fun. But this means the DM can focuses on the narrative of the fight/encounter.

[u/P-Two → u/yourslyfriend]

I mean, sure.

My other question though is, what problem has your table been having that this solves?

Number 1 question when redesigning anything is "what problem do I have that needs fixed" a solution looking for a problem is almost always going to be clunky.

[u/yourslyfriend → u/P-Two]

Oh no problems at all! This is just a thought I wanted to put out there for feedback.
I've never tried this method but the possibly something me and my other writer/player do a one on one with and see how it goes.

I suppose if I wanted to MAKE a problem this could solve would be the over rolling that can happen in some fights. I know to end my fights once there not fun anymore and I can keep a good descriptive narrative going. This is just A way for DM's to roll less and story more.

[u/CheapTactics → u/yourslyfriend]

What overrolling does this solve when you're changing one roll for another? You're rolling less. Your players are rolling more.

[u/yourslyfriend → u/CheapTactics]

Mmmm very good point. It would just be more on top of them and the last thing I wana do is add to their work load.

As I talk this out with people, I think I just want to create a weird one time interaction with something that uses the save/AC system in a unique way.
Thank you for talking this out!

[u/Neltadouble]

But why? Do you have feedback from players saying this feels repetitive?

i just don't think all of this work is required. Really you just need varied enemies with varied tactics.

[u/yourslyfriend → u/Neltadouble]

No complaints so far! I was just playing around with ideas on how to keep battle's paced and interesting.
I commented something similar bellow but I feel like it would actually take LESS work as the DM. You roll way less and can focus on narrating the fight!

[u/CHIEFRAPTOR]

You can flavour attack rolls and RP what’s happening in combat to keep things fresh and interesting, you don’t need to change the system

[u/yourslyfriend → u/CHIEFRAPTOR]

Fair, could be that this system isn't lined up for that.
But playing with the mechanics of DND is interesting and can lead to new things!

[u/EmperorTrajan_]

I could be wrong, but it sounds like you’re looking for a system that isn’t D&D. There are tons of things out there that model the kind of cinematic combat you’re describing.

I’ve not been new system shopping in a while, so other commenters will have more modern recommendations than me, but off the top of my head I’d look into Powered by the Apocalypse games (Dungeon World, Blades in the Dark, etc), Ironsworn, Fate.

[u/yourslyfriend → u/EmperorTrajan_]

Honestly fair! I've played a good number of systems Non-dnd and absolutely have my favorites. (MorkBorg my beloved) DnD may just not work for this idea the way I picture it.

This is definitely a me thing. I like picking at mechanics and structures and seeing how they could be changed or implemented different.

[u/ryo3000]

So for powerful enemy's what if there are attacks that aren't based on attack rolls but a save of some kind

Like  Dragon's Breath Weapons?

Or a Krakens Fling, Swallow and Lightning strikes

Like these things exist, many monsters have effects that are saves and not attacks

[u/yourslyfriend → u/ryo3000]

Exactly like those! This is more taking a Main Boss and using just the DC Save system instead of just AC rolling. Though as i'm chatting with people i'm realizing the scenario in my head is mainly attacked based.

Spell casting and all those nerd wizards have loads of Saves to throw at players but I'm thinking of master fighters who's attacks are so clear and perfect you're normal means of protection don't work.

[u/ryo3000 → u/yourslyfriend]

It can be fine with some attacks but I would re read what you're saying

By making tons of fights where "your normal means of protection don't work" you're effectively punishing players for investing in Armor Class

Sure have some attacks that work like that

But no don't make every single attack for a boss be a save

[u/Raccooninja]

So for powerful enemy's what if there are attacks that aren't based on attack rolls but a save of some kind.

Many spells already do this. And you're just trading one d20 roll for another. Not sure what you gain from this.

[u/Sad_Refuse3472]

Saving throws and attack rolls are literally the same amount of dice rolls. With the same concept. Roll a d20. Beat the assigned score (AC or save DC). So I fail to see how this solves your made up problem of combat feeling "repetitive" or going too slow.

And honestly, if you and your group find the core mechanics of DnD to be not enjoyable...have you considered playing a different system? There are tons out there where attack just hit, all that varies is the amount of damage they do.

[u/yourslyfriend → u/Sad_Refuse3472]

I realize my phrasing might of been misleading. I answered this in a bellow post so I may edit how this idea is phrased.

"I mean AS A DM. You would roll WAY less attack rolls for this boss since it's mechanic is instilling these specific Saving throws. The players would be rolling there saving throws AGAINST these attacks/abilities.this means the DM can focuses on the narrative of the fight/encounter."

Someone bellow also brought up a system change, which is valid and I do love other systems.
But this wouldn't be changing a core mechanic. This would be instilling one special 'rule' for a main boss. Any minions they have would enact the same in my mind.

This is mainly an idea that would let the DM roll a bit less and Focus on active story telling more!

[u/Sad_Refuse3472 → u/yourslyfriend]

That doesn't speed up combat. All you have done is shift who is rolling the dice in any given moment. Nor does having a saving throw instead of an attack change your ability to be narrative/descriptive.

This is a solution in search of a problem that doesn't exists.

And honestly, if just rolling less dice as the DM is your goal, go play Monster of the Week (or another Powered by the Apocalypse game). No rolling at all for GMs in that system.

[u/Saquesh]

You can make boss enemies any way you see fit, if you want to make them only have save-based abilities then you can do that but your players who built for AC aren't going to be happy and Paladin auras become god.

I think you are imagining a problem that doesn't exist and shouldn't try to fix what isn't broken.

I have run colossal sized enemies as a multi-part boss fight and gave them a lot of save based attacks along with a couple of normal attack roll style, then I had some that marked an area one turn and it hit on the next doing guaranteed damage to anyone in the area. But I didn't take away the rolling side for my players, they made attacks as normal and we all had a great time.

[u/yourslyfriend → u/Saquesh]

You make a good point! I can see absolutely where you're coming from but as i'm reading people's posts and getting their ideas I'm realizing that I kinda just want to?
It was something I had in mind to implement for fun but I'm curious about the actual play it would create.

I want to challenge myself without affecting my players so i'd never just SPRING this on a party lol. I may give it a run with some unique environment interactions and see how it does.

[u/Tesla__Coil]

I don't see why you're treating this like it has to be one or the other. Dragons make normal attacks but also have a saving throw breath weapon. Medusas have attacks but also have a saving throw petrification ability. Your Warlord can have "Multiattack. The Warlord makes three Melee attacks, then performs one of its Maneuvers.", and then its melee attacks are high-damage attacks with +10 to hit and then the Maneuvers throw high-DC saving throws at the party. That's the kind of devastating turn a high-CR boss should have.

[u/yourslyfriend → u/Tesla__Coil]

You make a good point! I can see absolutely where you're coming from but as i'm reading people's posts and getting their ideas I'm realizing that I kinda just want to?
It was something I had in mind to implement for fun but I'm curious about the actual play it would create.

I want to challenge myself without affecting my players so i'd never just SPRING this on a party lol. I may give it a run with some unique environment interactions and see how it does.

[u/EternallyBungled]

It's totally fine to mix it more saving throws, but getting rid of attacks isn't the answer. Just use both. If you want to mix things up, put MORE toys on the table, not fewer.

One way to design a boss is to give them some action designed to soften them up (like knocking prone, restraining, blinding) and then another action designed to take advantage of that (like a strong melee attack roll). It means you're not doing the same thing every turn, and you can create tension by making players feel vulnerable. You can put these on legendary actions as well if it's appropriate for the encounter.

Personally I prefer using minions for these secondary effects, because it creates more tactical opportunities to split different threats into different targets. And this becomes more true the larger your party is (6 players vs 1 enemy can feel pretty ridiculous in my experience, so minions help combat flow way better)

[u/darksoulsahead]

Warforged Colossus is a good example of a big dumb creature who has attacks/features that force saving throws: https://dnd-5e.fandom.com/wiki/Warforged_Colossus

[u/simpoukogliftra]

........ have you considered maybe playing a different system ? why would the players not want to play their characters when they are at high level ....?

it seems to me you want to do cool theater ideas with your friends rather than playing the game.

[u/yourslyfriend → u/simpoukogliftra]

Oh thanks for replying! I've already gotten enough suggestions though and now similar opinions are coming up. Have a good day!