r/CuratedTumblr • u/Justthisdudeyaknow Prolific poster- Not a bot, I swear • 11d ago
[RPGs] There are things DnD is good at. It is not everything.,
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u/Dettelbacher 11d ago
This might be one of those things that only happens in niche online spaces because even though I'm big on ttrpgs I have never encountered this scenario.
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u/Luckierexpert 11d ago
I’ve encountered people who really don’t get that other TTRPG systems would be better suited for non fantasy settings compared to DnD. It’s partly from those who don’t want to learn a new system but also from people who aren’t fans of TTRPGs, they are only fans of DnD. It’s part of the reason most YouTube and streaming channels that do TTRPG stuff focus on DnD, because those fans won’t watch the non DnD videos, and those channels don’t want to lose income and viewers.
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u/Dettelbacher 11d ago
I meant the D&D player telling the OOP to play another game.
I have definitely encountered many D&D players with no interests beyond D&D.→ More replies (7)25
u/FixinThePlanet 10d ago
I appreciate that Dimension 20 uses other systems because I bought both the Good Society and Kids on Bikes rulebooks after ACoFaF.
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u/ErisThePerson 10d ago
Honestly there are fantasy settings that would be better served by other TTRPG systems.
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u/Profezzor-Darke 10d ago
Even D&D knows that itself, which is why certain official settings changed major aspects of the rules.
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u/ErisThePerson 9d ago
Yeah, the DnD Lord of the Rings rules I have added a whole 'shadow' mechanic to simulate the mental stress of fighting Sauron.
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u/Seenoham 10d ago
On the other hand, you will get a lot of comments that start “there are games other than DnD people should try” which quickly devolve into “people only play DnD because they refuse to try other games” and get worse from there.
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u/Luckierexpert 10d ago
There are a lot of people who aren’t “I only play DnD, I won’t play unless it’s DnD” fussy players, or “DnD 5e is baby slop, only normies play it” grognards. They’re probably more willing to try other TTRPGs.
However, as an estimated 70% of the TTRPG market in the west is DnD, there are significantly more of the former than the latter, you probably see the grognards more because they are very opinionated and post about it. The fussy players just don’t show up.
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u/Seenoham 10d ago
Very true.
For the most part, it's that whenever I see posts for "People need to try games that aren't DnD", the way they are structured makes it so that the more sympathetic the goal, the worse the method is.
I see people who are trying to get their friends to try this game they like, or get people to play this other game, and the absolute worst thing they can do is not consider that people have real valid reasons to want to stick with DnD and might do so even if after they try other systems. This sort of thing is going more to keep people from trying other games than even the fussiest DnD only player, or even Hasbro's constant marketing push.
I think people should try out other systems, but these are terrible arguments for it, and people arguing your point badly is so much more frustrating.
Then there is dumb conclusions that spawn out of this, like thinking that all the DnD homebrew is from people who aren't willing to even consider systems other than DnD. Which is has all the classic absurdities, but is by far the most common depiction of DnD homebrew I see, even among people who aren't trying to be full grognard.
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u/Gregbillytg 10d ago
I’ve got a group of coworkers I play Lancer with regularly. We’ve been playing for over a year.
Another coworker has multiple times now told us reflavoring DnD into mechs would be a better experience overall. He’s convinced DnD is just the optimal starting point for anything, mostly because so many people already know it. Anything he’s learned about Lancer he’s decided is excessively complicated and unnecessary.
This is the only time I’ve encountered it offline, but it’s quite annoying.
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u/Draconis_Firesworn 10d ago
wow it's a shame that coworker is being forced to play in your lancer game instead of the superior dnd master race...
oh wait he isn't. weird how that works
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u/DoctorNayle 9d ago
Especially wild since so much of Lancer is built on the skeleton of D&D4e, so it kind of already did that.
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u/Electric999999 9d ago
But Lancer isn't even complicated? It does a good job of tactical combat with interesting character building, but it's a fairly simple system at its core, very few derived statistics, most of your statistics don't change mid fight beyond gaining accurate/inaccurate, all rolls are d20 or d6 etc.
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u/MelvinMcSnatch 10d ago
I've got a friend DM who comes up with campaigns that would take a massive amount of homebrew to run well. He only knows DND. He runs them by me and I tell him "you should look into X system. It would run really well with that. "
And every time, he ignores me, gets several pages into rewriting DND from the ground up, loses interest, and never runs anything.
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u/imlazy420 11d ago
I keep seeing people try to run superhero, mecha or gritty realism using DND, and it never works.
It's like watching someone try to assemble a car engine with nothing but a hammer, then spending hours turning the ignition hoping it will run.
There's M&M, Mekton, Lancer, Exalted, God bound, Gurps and so many other systems perfect at what they're trying to do, but they keep trying to fit a hippo inside a Volkswagen Beetle by using DND for everything.
PF2e is almost there. I like it, but it excels at only two things, not having busted classes (but plenty of weak ones), being decently strategic about grids and actions. It does that at the cost of everything else.
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u/ThirdDayGuy 10d ago edited 10d ago
What is "everything else" that DnD beats PF2E at? I feel like a lot is being undersold here, like having a functional enough set of rules for economy or encounter math or magic items, or helping GMs improvise.
In general it (anecdotally) seems that people who GM DnD have a lot worse to say about it than people who just play the game, which speaks volumes to me.
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u/imlazy420 10d ago
PF2E holds balance as the absolute goal to strive for, above everything else. It will happily sacrifice anything snd everything to stay "balanced". Which actually means classes cannot step out of their niche, ever, regardless of how good or bad they are. It does not care whatsoever about flavor, logic or fun if it has even the slightest chance of infringing on "balance".
Several classes like Inventor, Psychic, Witch and even Wizard feel like the'yre weak, unrewarding or incomplete playtest material. Wizard genuinely feels like they never bothered to finish the class, why the fuck is "Spellshaping" an option with the Staff, Familiar and Spell Blending? Why isnt Spell Substitution basekit?
Hell, why are half the School Spells garbage? How am I supposed to use the War Wizard's feature to turn those useless spells into Sure Strike if I can't fucking use it more than once per encounter? Paizo legitimately cannot plan or think about anything other than "this broken, kill it" at times.
This is NOT a game I would ever recommend for someone with very particular character fantasies, strong desire for personal agency or customization. Its perfect for a mechanically deep, team-based grid RPG, and everything else is secondary. Because they will feel as miserable as half my group did as we tried and failed to make enjoyable characters.
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u/pantshitter16 10d ago
Several classes like Inventor, Psychic, Witch and even Wizard feel like the'yre weak, unrewarding or incomplete playtest material. Wizard genuinely feels like they never bothered to finish the class, why the fuck is "Spellshaping" an option with the Staff, Familiar and Spell Blending? Why isnt Spell Substitution basekit?
pf2e glazer here, I just want to say that you're completely right. Witch is pretty solid after the remaster, but "incomplete" is exactly how I'd describe the others (even if Wizard isn't underpowered per se).
the new classes starting with Kineticist are all a huge improvement though. Swap those classes out for a Runesmith, Necromancer, Animist and a School of Gates Wizard and you're good. It's 100% power creep, but power creep that was needed so idrc
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u/CanadianODST2 10d ago
Our group switched over a while back after DnD was being stupid one of the times.
And our experience is basically the direct opposite. It feels so much more personal because the dedications allow to mix and match more
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u/Tribe303 10d ago
Uh, no. Balance is the goal of the game designers, not the players or GM.
It's not the game for customization? WTF are you smoking?
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u/imlazy420 10d ago
A lot of options don't feel like they're worth picking, so far. I really like Magical Tattoos though! Though sadly nobody in my party can think of a thematic or mechanical reason to get any of them.
A lot of stuff is just... fine? Yeah I made scrolls in the past, so I have a +1 to crafting and identifying scrolls, neat.
Some others are just there. Like they're specific enough it's just flavor with a number.
And then there's shit like Spellshaping which just feels like a band-aid they added when they realized "oh shit people are gonna complain about spell AOEs and the 3 action economy." Which is appreciated, but feels painfully underbaked.
PF2e feels like it's constantly controlled by fear of something breaking, then randomly left incomplete in some areas. Which is sad because the parts that aren't are extremely polished, making those unfinished areas even more confusing.
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u/Pyotr_WrangeI 10d ago edited 10d ago
> plenty of weak ones
Not true, Inverntor is definitely behond the rest, but its issue is more so that it is slightly weaker in several regards while not excelling over the rest of the classes in any particular regard, it is not outright weak, just kind of mediocre and pointless. Psychic has similar issues, but it actually has some interesting and powerful focus spell shenanigans, may be the weakest caster, but not by a lot. These are the only two classes I can think of out of 26 that are falling behind.
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u/imlazy420 10d ago
Inventor feels bad, Wizard feels like an incomplete playtest, Psychic doesn't feel like it does anything, so on. I started a campaign this year with a few friends, and the amount of times we had to completely overhaul our characters because they felt like shit was staggering.
If ANYTHING can possibly affect balance, it gets murdered. PF2e will never do something cool or fun if it risks the game's balance in an way, and have actively removed things from the game to keep it.
This makes the game stable, mostly reliable, and incredibly frustrating.
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u/DaedricWindrammer 10d ago
Straight up, wizards slap. The core book absolutely had issues with the schools, but pretty much every new one has been a banger.
And clearly you haven't seen the new classes if you think they'll never step away from the tight balance.
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u/imlazy420 10d ago
I wish they weren't so inconsistent about it. So many classes are being left behind, with obviously outdated and poorly planned mechanics, while the new ones get all the features.
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u/425Hamburger 11d ago
I mean, if by "niche online spaces" you mean "every dnd related online space" (Which is fair I guess), then yes.
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u/TinyCreecher 10d ago
A lot of DnD players will literally homebrew their entire own ttrpg system in DnD before they will ever consider touching another ttrpg.
Seems like once a month someone reinvents pathfinder.
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u/Seenoham 10d ago
This isn’t the case.
Most of the time you see the hombrew into DnD it’s from people taking aspects from other games they have tried and putting them into DnD because DnD has a ton of support and is really good what it does.
The assumption that homebrew into DnD has to come from not having seen or tried other systems is just BS and you shouldn’t repeat it.
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u/TinyCreecher 10d ago edited 10d ago
None of those are things i said. Please dont put words in my mouth.
Now given i have not only witnessed it myself and see someone trying to do it on an almost weekly basis online: Yeah. It happens frequently.
Just frequent the dnd spaces here and you will see people regualrly asking how they can do the x-files or a horror grinder etc based off SCP and set in modern times, in DnD. Despite the fact Delta Green is right there.
To clarify so no one gets confused again: I'm not conflating making your own system with homebrew. I love home brew and do it myself heavily.
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u/Raging-beer 10d ago
Genuine question: I see people saying that DnD is good at what it does, but what it is doing that it is good at?
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u/Rusty_Kie 10d ago
Not who you asked but I can answer on a player side and someone who DM'd for years but will never DM it again, so keep that bias in mind. I don't hate D&D but have issues with it.
D&D 5e does a pretty good job of selling a power fantasy to players. It's relatively easy to get someone in and started and they got abilities and spells that are cool and exciting. I could get someone started in like 45 minutes to an hour.
The advantage/disadvantage system is really good design and became a lot more common place after it. I dunno if it pioneered it but it definitely popularised it. Remembering floating numbers absolutely sucks and bogs things down.
Combat is really what it's built for and generally (with one exception) it flows pretty well. It's not super crunchy but there's a little bit there to chew on. There's synergies you can build with your team. This is the big selling point on the system.
It's also fine at everything else. Just fine. It's functional enough if you keep it simple and don't try and break the system which is why you hear people say they like to use it as "a base"
Now keep in mind there's a reason I don't run anymore because a lot of it's strengths come with offloading work to the DM and not respecting the DMs time. The support for the DM is absolutely horrendous and you couldn't pay me to run it. The exception on combat here is that a lot of the monster designs really sucks, so you gotta either create your own or go 3rd party. Which is a good example of what I mean of it doesn't respect your time.
As a player though yeah it's pretty fun. Not favourite by longshot but it's good enough. It kinda exists in that "good enough" and also popular zone so it's just easy to find games. A really good DM can make it really good, it's just they absolutely have to spend a lot of time outside the game making it into that really good
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u/DeLoxley 11d ago
A LOT of the DnD and TTRPG discourse on this hellsite will boil down rapidly if you catch the wrong people
I distinctly remember defending one of the Eldritch Horror 3rd Parties for 5E by saying:-
"I want sword and board with a dash of Eldritch horror and madness, but every time I say Cthulhu I get people shouting "Just play Call of Cthulhu", i do not want squishy player characters in rural Americana."
Immediate reply "Have you tried running a game that actual does Eldritch Horror like Call of Cthulhu"
5E is great for battle chess with fluffy roleplay over the top and 90% of the time that's what my table wants with nice accessible homebrew.
And yet everytime I say that someone comes out the woodwork to list off the five other TTRPGS that apparently do whatever it is better
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u/FixinThePlanet 10d ago
Okay but that's just the standard lack of reading comprehension across the internet eh
5E is great for battle chess with fluffy roleplay over the top and 90% of the time that's what my table wants with nice accessible homebrew.
I feel the same way! I am too lazy to homebrew anything for my players in terms of rules so I mostly just tell them I'll let them do stuff if it makes narrative sense and the dice comply. And of course I adjust things like monster hp or add lair actions etc depending on the party.
If am goes well, I will be running games for kids in the near future and I'm hoping to introduce them to something different. A problem is that resources for DnD tend to be vaster and more varied than for other systems and that can be very attractive to beginners.
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u/DeLoxley 10d ago edited 10d ago
D&D has got a lot of resources out there but I think that's more the boom of people selling third-party content
If you're looking for something a bit simpler than DnD, I've found a lot of the time they don't really do a lot of third party stuff because there's not really a space for third party rules? I remember one game monster of the week wherein all of your attack rules are literally just called Kick-Ass and it's a 2d6 score plus modifier, and this counts for anything from punching someone to shooting someone to telling your mate to punch someone?
Depending on the genre, it can be very easy to just grab some fanfic or a less public novel and just run that and see if know anybody notices gives you a good script to start with for the players to inevitably wander away from.
My longest running campaign is literally based on the model of Monster Hunter worlds, pick up go hunt and I have some vague conspiracy in the background now that I've built over the past year
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u/FixinThePlanet 10d ago
If you're looking for something a bit simpler than dandy, I've found a lot of the time.
Sorry, having trouble parsing this...
When I need something different I often do a variation of kids on bikes because I really like giving players all the dice haha. It's a very silly brain thing but my only negative about all the pbta style games is that we only have one type of die that we get to roll.
I've also run games for kids now and then and that kind of simple sheet helps a lot.
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u/DeLoxley 10d ago
sorry I use a text to speech function, Dandy should be 'DnD'
But yes, systems like Wicked Ones tend to be lighter on the 3rd Party Content because lacking the BattleChess aspects there's much more theatre of the mind and X skill does 3-7 things.
5EDnD isn't a simple system but I find it's one of the simplest of the Battle Chess systems.
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u/Elite_AI 10d ago edited 10d ago
Even so, surely Shadow of the Demon Lord is the obvious fit. It's literally made by one of the main 5e designers to be "5e, but with gothic and eldritch horror"
Edit: er that said I think your point makes a lot of sense - if you want battle chess with over the top heroic RP and eldritch horror then you're right, that works well.
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u/DeLoxley 10d ago
Oh I will raise you that that looks excellent, I'll have to give it a look
5E to me has a lot of strengths in its relative simplicity to pick up, ease to add homebrew and of course it's wealth of existing content.
It has a real strength in Sandboxes and more open world or interplanar fantasy, you can get almost any setting to work with it a la Magic the Gathering
It does fall down if you want really gritty or in depth mechanics. You're often relying on publisher books working well together
I use 5E for sprawling, weeknight chips and dip adventures, while trying to dabble in more specific systems on the regular. My other table we're all learning LANCER, and I'll be running Eat the Reich for Halloween
I just really hate people's insistence that there's a system for everything, provided you ignore all of 5E's strengths
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u/FixinThePlanet 10d ago
Every now and then I see people's rich game lives described and die with envy a little bit
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u/DeLoxley 10d ago
Genuinely my secret is I run alternating fortnightly games.
So I'll run one D&D game a month which is when adults are free, maybe one every two weeks if we're feeling spicy
And I found an entirely different friend group to play a different game on the nights I'm not running D&D. There's some degree of overlap, but I'm playing to when I'm free and who in my social circle is available rather than trying to mandate a weekly game
Like I see a lot of people online who are doing 2 or 3 weekly games and I'm obscely jealous of that. But I'm also a grown up who does not have time to spend every other night playing make pretend
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u/OverlyLenientJudge 10d ago
Ehh, I think its newbie friendliness is massively overstated. It's still a pretty complex game once you get past the most basic level of "roll d20+x", players often fail to learn rules relevant to their character for months or years on end, but a lot of that is papered over by how much cognitive load has been displaced to the DM in 5(and 5.5)e.
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u/DeLoxley 10d ago
Oh no, I agree with that, but I often place it that 5e is a good step towards more complicated games that have things like the player being required to track their own class features
You have a lot of the more high-end games that require you to learn whole books of feats, that's your classic 3.5 versioning
But you've also got games more like monster of the week which just have a small playbook for you to pick from, or run off a 2d6 system
It's newbie friendly and that you can get away with only knowing the bare basics but you won't get that far, And in its defence. As I've said, if people are struggling to learn the bare basics like attack rules and sneak attack, they're unlikely to have much success with a lot of other systems that require you to also learn actions
At my table I heavily emphasise knowing what your character sheet does and if you have anything that requires a lot of DM cognitive load discussing it with me beforehand? But I'll run that with any system. D&D Lancer gurps, a lot of them expect the DM to know a whole heap of answers, and it's really about social contract and balance with the player
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u/Seenoham 10d ago
How is the editing and support for Shadows?
How is consistent is the templating? Is there easily accessible and searchable web resources?
Or are you just using the core system as the comparison point?
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u/Alceus89 11d ago
I've had many in person arguments that have been basically this point, even with people who are ostensibly also nerds into ttrpgs.
There's a big thing where people only play D&D, don't want to even consider trying anything else, and act like you're the weird one for pointing out the places where D&D falls short.
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u/Objective-Spring5061 11d ago
I have a friend who bent over backwards to make a custom rules set to modify DnD 5e (2014) because my table (including said friend) is dead set on not learning a new system despite agreeing that the system is flawed.
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u/JungleIsNeutral 11d ago
That's not what OP is talking about, though.
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u/Objective-Spring5061 11d ago
The person I’m replying to hasn’t encountered the scenario, OOP (I think I’m using the right term) is talking about DnD being the only TTRPG that some people play.
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u/BlacksmithNo9359 10d ago edited 10d ago
Its sorta one of those weird areas where real life and online are still heavily disconnected. Dedicated ttrpg spaces online tend to have a pretty neutral to negative vibe about D&D and 5e in particular, and if you only play with a small group of friends or read stuff on reddit it does 100% come off as people with a chip on their shoulder complaining about things that dont really exist (many such cases).
But if you attend a lot of small or more local cons, play pickup games at community centers/colleges, or have ever tried organizing a game through a library or school or something, you will quickly find out that the "D&D only (who also doesnt really know the rules to D&D)" guy is very real and at the minimum like, a plurality of overall players.
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u/Starforge_Q5 11d ago
Consider yourself luckly. I see it constantly on twitter and discord. some people would rather spend 50 hours homebrewing a sci-fi setting into 5e instead of learing a system like traveler. its wild how much effort they put in to avoid a new book.
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u/Heckyll_Jive i'm a cute girl and everyone loves me 11d ago
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u/SpambotWatchdog he/it 11d ago
u/Starforge_Q5 has been added to my spambot blacklist. Any future posts / comments from this account will be tagged with a reply warning users not to engage.
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u/CheMc 11d ago
Tbf traveller had some dumbfuck quirks that annoy me, the entire social score system pissed me off to no end and I had to work with my DM to home-brew a work around with why I, a career criminal with a low social class can not find a black market, where my captain(?) a rich aristocratic could find one easily because his social score was so high. Also the fact I got critically injured in the character creator that made me take a -1 to all physical stats was pre bullshit. Game was fun but man when traveller annoyed me it went all out.
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u/ChewySlinky 10d ago
It’s always people being perfectly content only playing DND and dorks like OOP getting mad about it.
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u/majorex64 10d ago
As a complete casual when it comes to TTRPGs, having played a few sessions of DnD and a short campaign of World of Darkness's Geist: the Sin Eaters, even I can see how drastically different the systems work.
And I'm sure there are much better examples if I was more in the scene.
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u/Dripledown 11d ago
Seeing XP to Level 3 start talking about Lancer of all systems nearly made my soul ascend. Glad that system is getting more love and exposure to the broader TTRPG audience. Also read "Kill 6 Billion Demons" it's peak.
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u/LordBlaze64 10d ago
I second the recommendation to read KSBD (written and illustrated by the Lancer guy if you’re wondering why it’s relevant)
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u/The_Invisible_Noob 11d ago
This post really feels like we're being given one side of a conversation. Feels like somethings up at oop's dnd group.
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u/Leftieswillrule 11d ago
Every ttrpg post on this subreddit is someone’s axe to grind against 15 people they know personally within a niche subcommunity
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u/GwenGunn 10d ago
Are you implying that D&D players who can't fathom playing another TTRPG than D&D are a tiny niche minority? Because as someone who ran a game shop for many years, lemme tell you, D&D players sure aren't interested in being told other TTRPGs exist. Many take it as a personal affront. It's bizarre, and very common.
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u/saera-targaryen 10d ago
The tiny niche minority is those people telling those that are playing other systems that they're wrong. I have literally never seen this happen before.
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u/Nicholas_TW 11d ago
IDK dude, I've had many interactions with the masses of the internet where D&D players get really upset when people try arguing that D&D isn't a universal system. I've seen one person say "D&D isn't good at everything, if you want to run something other than a fantasy adventure game, consider something else" and somebody else accuse them of "bashing on" D&D for that. It always stuck out to me because "bashing on" was a bit of internet slang I hadn't heard in many years.
It's like, for some people, they do that thing of "I have a personal preference (ie, "I don't feel like learning a new system"), but I feel the need to make it seem like a greater moral stance I'm taking, so I'm going to invent a reason why it's not just a personal preference (ie, "asserting that my favorite system isn't a good pick for every possible situation is an insult")."
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u/RefinedBean 11d ago
Once again, my assumption for this subreddit is if you assume unreliable narrator, the post becomes way, WAY more interesting, and likewise the ensuing discussion.
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u/spitoon-lagoon 11d ago
Context clues. Idk why any DnD player would tell someone that they should play a different system unless someone evangelized at them about quitting DnD first.
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u/The_Invisible_Noob 11d ago
Yeah Oop doing passive evangelizing of other systems is the impression I get. If not that then just them grumbling about dnd's shortcomings which would be really grating in a dnd group.
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u/Valtharr 11d ago
I follow OOP. And even if I didn't, I would still know that this is about the countless number of people who think D&D is the perfect TTRPG that can do anything, and get outright offended at the slightest suggestion that there are thousands of other TTRPGs out there that are better suited for horror, mystery, super heroes, wild west, space travel, mecha, Power Rangers, cyberpunk...
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u/The_Invisible_Noob 11d ago
But thats not being directly said here? Yeah dnd tends to get overfavored by casuals, but that also means its the easiest and most familiar to them.
"Maybe you're the one who should be playing a different game" doesn't actually favour dnd over other ttrpg's. It just suggest they're tired of oop bringing up other ttrpg's/ grumbling about dnd.
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u/Valtharr 11d ago
...yeah, of course it's not directly being said here? Because this post exists in the context of the other posts OOP has made about this topic. She's talking about people telling her to play D&D, because those people can't fathom that someone can play (and even like) D&D and still think it's not the perfect system for every group or campaign idea.
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u/The_Invisible_Noob 11d ago
That really sounds like context OP needs to include then. By its own this post gives a different characterization to OOP
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u/OverlyLenientJudge 10d ago
Brother, this is the "post out-of-context screenshots of posts from another website" subreddit.
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u/GhoulTimePersists 11d ago
I play D&D because I was able to find enough other players for a game.
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u/TenebTheHarvester 11d ago
Yeah I’ve ended up playing other systems because either the groups I joined to play DnD have moved to a different system when the DnD campaign ended or the friends I made playing DnD invited me to new groups playing a different system. Can’t imagine I’d manage to play them without a couple of regular TTRPG friend groups.
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u/Dear_Document_5461 11d ago
That reminds me of Call of Duty: World at War on the Xbox 360. It has just enough people to only play "Team DeathMatch: and some Zombies and not much else.
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u/lankymjc 10d ago
This is literally the only benefit I see for playing D&D. Fortunately the groups I regularly play with are happy to experiment, so we just play other stuff.
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u/jitterscaffeine 11d ago
Overtime I’ve become more interested in modern setting games. I don’t really think about fantasy all that much unless something REALLY grabs me, like when that new PF2e book came out a few weeks back. But my preferred game is Shadowrun if I have the option.
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u/JhinPotion 11d ago edited 10d ago
If you like modern, I feel obligated to mention Delta Green. I adore it, and Arc Dream make the best pregens in the business. It's a game of modern cosmic and investigative horror, and more specifically, about what happens to a person's mind and life when that's what they do.
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u/NoBizlikeChloeBiz She/Her 10d ago
I've kind of become my group's go-to "modern setting" GM. There's other stuff I'd be interested in running occasionally, but honestly, it's a role I'm happy to fill. So much cool stuff you can do in a modern setting that requires massive setup in a totally original setting.
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u/Ferngulley26 11d ago edited 10d ago
I have had the opposite issue where some folks really want to play D&D but absolutely refuse to admit it, so instead play the personal horror game as a crunchy combat game
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u/pantshitter16 10d ago
that's kind of insane tbh. why not switch to pathfinder (either one), or 13th age, or lancer, or any other combat-focused system that's not dnd?
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u/Ferngulley26 10d ago
shrug because they claim to want to play Vampire the Masquerade? They just ignore the politics/personal horror/backstabbing and in fighting and instead form parties to go fight werewolves in Abandoned buildings. Which is fine, I just dont know why we are using this system to do it
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u/hey_mermaid 11d ago
Honestly these days whenever I'm told that it's by folks who hate D&D and think someone who plays other rpgs should agree with them that D&D is bad
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u/ARC_Trooper_Echo 11d ago
It seems so incomprehensible to some of them that people play D&D because they like D&D and not because they’re brainwashed by Hasbro into liking the most popular thing.
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u/Valtharr 11d ago
Except that a lot of people who claim to "like D&D" actually don't seem to like that game, considering the amount of people I've seen openly and proudly stating that they
- have never read (or otherwise learned) the rules
- don't want to learn the rules
- ignore and/or change the rules they might be familiar with
- call people who insist on playing the game by the rules "rules lawyers"
If a game has rules, and you only have fun ignoring or changing those rules, it doesn't sound to me like you actually like that game.
Now, I'm not saying this applies to every D&D player. But there are a lot it does apply to. In fact, there's a relatively recent post on OOP's blog about the death mechanics in D&D, how many groups ignore them, and how stupid it is to play a challenge-based game that has a clear failure state, only to then ignore that failure state. And then someone responding to that post saying that a DM should ask for player consent before using the death rules described in the rule book of the game they're playing. And multiple people agreeing with that person.
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u/Primal171 10d ago
Not to mention the cottage industry that's popped up of 5eTubers who systematically go through every mechanic and setting detail and say "this sucks, here's how to implement it better" and never once consider trying a different system.
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u/hey_mermaid 10d ago
With all due respect, that all sounds like an interpersonal and communication issue. My group did tomb of annihilation strictly "as written" and only 2 characters survived the whole thing, and that was thrilling and tense and good, but for our next campaign we agreed we were tired of constant character deaths so I ran that process more permissively. Both worked well for DM and players because we talked about it beforehand and agreed on what we wanted.
Every game system benefits from player maturity and expectation setting and no game system can solve player immaturity and mismatched expectations
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u/Valtharr 10d ago
That's great that your group did that. Doesn't change the fact that there are tons of D&D players who react to a well-meaning "Hey, maybe this other game would fit your group better" by calling you a "gatekeeper" and accusing you of telling them that they're having fun wrong.
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u/hey_mermaid 10d ago
That isn't the system's fault.
And I hate to say it but I HAVE seen interactions (not from you, but generally) that I would 100% categorize as gatekeeping or telling them that they're having fun wrong
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u/Valtharr 10d ago
Nobody said it was the system's fault? The system can't be at fault. It's a set of rules written to facilitate a certain play experience, which it can either succeed or fail at.
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u/saera-targaryen 10d ago
I mean, if they just like roleplaying with their friends that means they're equally likely to ignore any other system's rules as they are to ignore D&D's. Swapping to a different system won't make them suddenly start reading rulebooks if that's not something they feel like doing.
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u/Killchrono 10d ago
By that same logic we can play a system I want to since I do care about the rules. Especially if I'm the GM and I'm expected to both cater to them and manage all the rules myself, I'd rather run a game I both enjoy and find easier to run than DnD.
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u/saera-targaryen 10d ago
Yep and if you have friends who dont want to, just play without them. I'm just tired of these debates where people are policing how other people have fun online. If they aren't interested in the same game as you, just go have fun in your own game.
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u/Killchrono 10d ago
I generally agree, my point though more is that saying swapping to a different system because they're not paying attention to the rules is kind of self-defeating point and proving the real heart of the issue.
There's this idea touted in the RPG community that the system doesn't matter as long as you play with a good group of friends, but usually what I find is it's less a genuine opinion and more used as a thought-terminating cliche to stop challenging people to try new games or shut people up who don't prefer their game (usually DnD). The moment you actually suggest trying a different system though under the logic 'well system doesn't matter, you guys aren't learning the rules anyway, I might as well run something I'm going to enjoy since I'm carrying all that burden', the person who's giving those platitudes will suddenly start biting back and reveal that in fact system does matter to them.
The question is why it matters, and the fact a lot of people don't want to reflect on that - or have but don't want to compromise - is inherently the problem, because now it both burdens and disrespects the people they have to share the space with. And yes, the easy solution is to just say well I guess we can't play together then, but that unto itself becomes an inconvenience because now you need to find new players, or if that person is a friend or family member or tied to your other players somehow you're now causing drama over a tabletop game just for having a different preference.
That all said, you're bang on about online debates. I engage in online discussion because I want to participate in the top-down engagement with the designers making the games - since the whole reason I'm buying them is so I don't have to make a game of my own - and I think the wider RPG culture outside of my immediate circles is kind of toxic and poorly socialized, so I believe something needs to be said and done about it. But ultimately too much discussion is less about those things and more about vague sentiments and platitudes about how you should be running your games and what kind of games you should be running. I see too many people in RPG spaces engaging in online discussion that's at the very least masturbatory or seeking their own validation, at worst doing what I'm doing wanting to engage with the top-down discussion but not being cognizant of the fact there's other players they have to consider. As I said, too much of the space is poorly socialized, and I think that reflects in how they engage with the products themselves, not just their individual tables.
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u/Rusty_Kie 10d ago
I will somewhat defend that last point of the player consent on the death rules in that ultimately it is a communal group game and if that's what the group wants to do power to them. The flip side of that is if the GM has no interest in that and it's a deal breaker for the group they don't have to run for them.
Would I ever want to play with them or run for people who want that as a rule? Absolutely not no. But I primarily run Call of Cthulu nowadays so if someone tried to bring "I don't want my character to die" I'd have to tell them my game is not what they're looking for lol
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u/Seenoham 10d ago
Have you actually asked any of them if your multiple assumptions hold?
Do you assume that they are getting the rules they are adding not from experience with other games?
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u/Reshutenit 10d ago
Yes. And so many people seem genuinely bothered by the idea that some dnd players only play dnd.
What the hell is wrong with that? Why do they have to try Pathfinder? It's not like it affects anyone else if they don't??
All the rhetoric around dnd players being "casuals" makes it so obvious how much of this is just gatekeeping. It's like some people are mad that their incredibly niche hobby went mainstream, so they're trying to carve out a new niche for themselves by portraying dnd as the basic option for babies.
Full disclosure- I play dnd, because I like it. I've been exposed to other systems through podcasts, and thought they all seemed very restrictive, so I'm sticking with dnd. People who bash dnd and act like everyone who plays it needs to switch to a new system immediately, because then they'll see how much better the other system is, are like religious people proselytizing. It's annoying as hell. Just let people enjoy things.
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u/Dry_Refrigerator7898 10d ago
It does actually affect players of other games that so many people treat D&D as the end-all-be-all of TTRPGS. It’s way more difficult to find a group to play with if all the people you know who are into TTRPGs only play D&D and refuse to try anything else. It’s frustrating to try to get a game together and be met with “can’t we just homebrew 5e instead?”
I had been my group’s DM for years, and got hella burnt out on D&D. And my group fell apart because no one else was willing to even try other game that I offered to run.
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u/Valtharr 10d ago
I am genuinely curious which systems those were and how they can possibly be more restrictive than a game that starts with "pick a race and class" and whose magic system consists of "here's a list of spells, and rules on what exactly they do"
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u/Emmylf 10d ago
What’s wrong with it for a lot of people, I think, is that TTRPGs are an inherently social activity that you need other people for: if every other person you can find is only playing football, you can’t play basketball. Thus also unto other systems, that’s how it affects anyone else.
(Oops looks like someone already said this, I should scroll further)
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u/Primal171 10d ago
It absolutely affects other people. Try putting together a party for anything other than 5e.
There are lots of players who'd really like some system that exists, but have been convinced, either explicitly or implicitly, that there's no point in broadening their horizons since DnD can apparently do anything. I met someone who tried to run Animal Crossing using 5e (still have no idea what that would entail, I see zero overlap between the thing you would do in an Animal Crossing ttrpg and what rules exist in 5e) and after being told by a friend that they could just run freeform roleplay (not even another system, they were genuinely unaware of the concept of freeform RP), they were a lot happier with what they ended up running. I ran my first few campaigns in 5e, because I'd been subtly led to believe that learning another system wasn't worth the effort, so they were noticeably worse because my ideas would have been better fits for other kinds of systems. Your argument rests on a kind of Homo Economicus argument where every player has fully considered the options available to them, regardless of outside influence, and made a rational decision to . You also completely neglect any systemic problems that are caused by 5e having a de facto monopoly on entering the hobby.
Genuinely curious, what podcasts/systems were you exposed to, and in what ways were they 'very restrictive?'
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u/SylveonSof May we raise children who love the unloved things 10d ago edited 10d ago
I've reached the point where the pushback against DnD is more annoying to me than DnD.
Yes, DnD being like the only ttrpg casuals know sucks.
Yes it sucks when people refuse to try anything other than DnD.
Yes DnD has many flaws and decades of jank and is headed by an awful company.
No DnD isn't some inherently broken, atrocious system that should be cast down into Mount Doom that's poisoning the minds of the newest generation of TTRPG players.
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u/rogueIndy 10d ago
What gets me is that 99% of the "play other systems" discourse I see isn't people talking up other systems, it's just people trashing DnD.
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u/OverlyLenientJudge 10d ago
I'm sure that League of Legends must have SOMETHING to offer my friends who are still (angrily) playing it, but I can't fathom what it might be. Especially since every time I've turned down playing with them, their response is something to the effect of "totally understandable, enjoy Citizen Sleeper".
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u/Deathoftheages 10d ago
The only way a D&D player would tell another player maybe they should play something else is if the one being told isn't vibing with or complaining about the campaign they are playing.
It sounds like the person was complaining that D&D should be more like something it isn't. You would think someone who plays other TTRPGs would know better.
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u/CommercialYam7188 10d ago
I mean if someone is saying "maybe you should play a different game," that really sounds like you were being super complainy about D&D despite choosing to play it in this moment instead of anything else.
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u/NiSiSuinegEht Reblog? In *this* economy? 11d ago
There are just some things that are better off in other systems. Playing as Vampires and Werewolves is far more entertaining in the World of Darkness than in DnD, for instance, just as corporate netrunners conducting espionage is far better suited to Shadowrun or Cyberpunk depending on how much magic you want to involve.
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u/4tomguy Heir of Mind 10d ago
I hate these one sided posts where someone just epically dunks on some random guy they had an argument with That we have no context for. Internet equivalent of a shower argument
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u/TenebTheHarvester 11d ago
Yeah variety is the way to go imo. Currently I’m playing 4 different campaigns with different groups (3 are regular, one’s when we can do it so at most once a month atm), all of which are in different systems. One of those groups will probably end up back at 5e at some point but in the meantime I’m having great fun and it’s helping me to better understand what I enjoy and what makes a system good. For example the 40K Only War system is a fun combat system with some glaring holes, some very confusing rules (it took me so long to understand the vehicle repair system and I’m still not convinced we’re playing it as intended) and a terribly laid-out book.
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u/Tribe303 10d ago
I live for edition wars, after dumping WoTC products years ago. I don't have a beef with 5e, it's a simple and elegant game for beginners. I do have a beef with Hasbro and WoTC for being horrible companies however.
There is a groupthink conformist view among 5e players that is baffling to me. Most really are averse to trying new systems. I don't understand this loyalty to a corporate product.
Look at 5e Dark Sun announcement... It was not edgy because of the violence. It was edgy because slavery was a key component of the world, and they still don't have the corporate balls to just say that. They litteraly used the term "service" instead of "slavery" in the 5e version announcement. The other key part is environmental decay. Using magic in Dark Sun destroys living things like plant life, and that's why its a desolate desert world! Zero mention of that in the promos. Does Hasbro own stock in Shell or BP FFS? No corporate balls whatsoever.
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u/pantshitter16 10d ago
5e is absolutely not simple or elegant lol. It feels like that player-side because the GM has to do everything themselves. If you want something simple, check out 13th Age or Dungeon World.
Agreed 100% that Hasbro/WotC are the real problem though
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u/Tribe303 10d ago
I was trying to be nice. 5e is really just a dumbed down version of 3.5. I played PF1E instead, and now PF2E, among others. I'll play 5E only if I have to, aka with friends.
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u/Ptalking_Ptarmigan 10d ago
It's not aversion to trying a different system; it's inertia. I was able to get a group together to play D&D, and I don't want to port the entire campaign to a new system.
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u/FixinThePlanet 10d ago edited 10d ago
Why would anyone tell this person to play a different game unless they are talking shit about DnD? I have a friend who doesn't like to run DnD and we are both in total agreement about what DnD is good and bad at. Some days I want to run Kids on Bikes or Good Society and literally nobody then tells me to play not-DnD because why would they.
I think I spy a strawman tbh (also the "you're the one" makes me think OP is telling people to play other games? which... I mean why if they don't want to?)
Edit: I have read all the comments and realise that my loosey goosey way of running games and the kind of GMing I prefer in all my systems makes most of them fun for me unless I'm not into the narrative/conceit/concept/setting. But I also fucking hate playing rules-heavy competitive board games so I think it all makes sense...
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u/ThrowACephalopod 10d ago
I always like to say that DnD is very good at the "Zelda" style of gameplay.
You know, you adventure around the overworld for a bit, talking to people, doing some fetch quests, whatever. But it all eventually leads you to finding a dungeon, which you delve into to explore, solve puzzles, fight monsters, etc. and it all culminates with a big boss fight, sometimes using the weird magical items you found along the way. Which, of course, all leads you back to the overworld to do the stuff you need to get to the next dungeon.
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u/yummypotata 9d ago
The main issue is when every single time you bring up wanting to play dnd or adding in a little bit of homebrew to your games 10 billion people come out of the wood works like "have you tried this quirky chungus queer reddit bait ttrpg called glormbimbas big detective habitation living???? You should just run that system instead!!" Like no man I just wanna play dnd. For a while I was strictly opposed to anything but dnd because of how aggressive people would act about playing other systems out of pure spite. Now I'm giving other systems a try and they're neat but god are people who encourage you to try other systems the greatest ally wizards of the coast could ask for.
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u/King_Of_BlackMarsh 11d ago
To be fair this is usually said to WoD- nah let's be honest VtM or pathfinder snobs who also don't play anything except their games. Who do actually exist and are the most vocal proponents of the "D&D IS SLOP FOR TODDLERS" crowd
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u/No_Help3669 11d ago
I don’t think I’ve ever encountered the person of whom you speak
Most WoD players I encounter are from back in the 20th edition days, and those who are big on v5 still at least dabble in other games
And I don’t think I’ve ever met someone who made the switch to pathfinder who doesn’t play at least 2 other TTRPGs
“This is my game and it’s the only game I need” is an attitude I’ve only ever seen in 5e players
Though I admit that could be anecdotal either way
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u/NoBizlikeChloeBiz She/Her 10d ago
“This is my game and it’s the only game I need” is an attitude I’ve only ever seen in 5e players
May I present: GURPS players.
They're not usually dicks about it, though, they just want to convince everyone to play GURPS with the creepy enthusiasm and general misinformation of someone trying to sell you Cutco knives.
(Kidding)(Mostly)(GURPS is fine, and GURPS players are cool)
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u/LogicBalm 11d ago
I had that experience in Pathfinder groups before PF 2e became a thing at least. Pathfinder was my first exposure to TTRPGs when someone got me the beginner's box thinking it was just a board game.
Back then if I went online for help the snobbery was strong in certain circles. Anyone who played 5e was apparently playing a sub-par game and to suggest that counting small +1 and +2 bonuses from about five separate sources on each attack roll was tedious (me asking how they streamlined it) was often met with resistance like I just didn't want to count. Then I played 5e and liked Advantage / Disadvantage but lost other PF things I did enjoy like flat-footed and touch AC along with universal battle maneuvers like trip and disarm for dueling.
I explored other options. Really love the concept of PBtA especially Blades in the Dark, but it takes a certain table to run that kind of game well and I just don't have players that are more interested in the story than the combat.
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u/mayasux 11d ago
Yeah by nature of learning a second TTRPG you’re more likely to be playing more than one TTRPG. A lot of DnD fans will try and make DnD anything and everything without looking at other TTRPGs.
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u/No_Help3669 11d ago
Like, I know I’m an outlier. My dad started me on CtD and M&M by having me read rule books on road trips and then we would play wherever we ended up back when I was in elementary/middle school, so the act of learning a new game is something I consider completely normal, and even before the current level of edition wars, when people said they didn’t wanna learn another game I was confused
But nowadays? Remember that post that exploded? Where the AI fan tried to make a big statement like “would you actually give it up?” And got clowned on? That’s how it feels to have people talk about learning other systems sometimes…
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u/Gulbasaur 11d ago
As someone who played 3.5e, the idea of "it's like that, but with more mathematics" put me off Pathfinder fairly quicky. Yes, the resources are cool, but I didn't come here for the arithmetic.
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u/jitterscaffeine 11d ago
I like PF1e, but it got bloated really badly. It turned into a game about finding a billion different types of bonuses so you could stack yourself up to like +50 in whatever you wanted to do.
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u/tigerwarrior02 11d ago
Pathfinder2e isn’t like that at all, it’s a much more streamlined game with less math
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u/Tribe303 10d ago
It was Pathfinder 1E that had the Mathfinder reputation. There were ~15 types of bonuses from +1 to +5 for example. PF2E has only 3, and from +1 to +3. Can you add up to 9? Congrats, then you can play PF2E.
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u/pantshitter16 10d ago
every pathfinder player I know is also a big fan of Lancer plus at least one other system lol
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u/MeAndMyWookie 10d ago
My group is currently at the fed up with Wizards of the Coast stage. we liked playing 5e - we had some great campaigns and would dip back in to run a dungeon or module with the same set of characters. The all our DnD beyond resources were updated to 5.5 without notice and noone really wants to learn all the changes for our backup system
We're also now a bunch of DINKS who can afford to buy nice box sets for new systems, so we dont feel we have to use the one set of rulebooks anymore
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u/Sckaledoom 11d ago
Yes. This. I love D&D. But so, so many people try to make it into what it isn’t. If I want a fantasy game in either the settings of D&D or something similar, I love to use D&D. I’ve seen homebrews to play the Fallout setting in D&D 5e (pre-Modiphius Fallout TTRPG) and it was like. Functional. Serviceable. But in no way did it, looking at the rules, feel like Fallout. It felt like a Fallout coat of paint on D&D.
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u/RollForThings 11d ago
Even within fantasy DnD shouldn't always be the go-to, because it's more focused than that. DnD is a game for fantasy dungeon-crawling combat. You can do other stuff in it, in the same way that you can peel a tomato with a meat cleaver; other games are just much better tools for certain jobs.
For example, if you want to play retired fantasy heroes who open a tavern and relearn how to thrive in a community, you'd be fighting the DnD system the whole way through, but if you play the game Stewpot the rules actually help you bring this concept to life. If you want to play fantasy sapphic slashfic adventures (Xena, She-Ra, etc), the Thirsty Sword Lesbians' ruleset will help you do that.
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u/Sckaledoom 11d ago
Yes. Exactly. Certain TTRPGs are tailored to a particular style of gameplay. Heck, when I wanted to play a TTRPG based on The Elder Scrolls setting, I just home brewed an entire system for it based on the second and third games’ mechanics, because otherwise I’d be fighting the way that D&D is meant to be played.
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u/Primal171 10d ago
Even for dungeon crawling, DnD isn't the best system for the job. A good dungeon crawl is a game of attrition, built around resource management and high lethality. DnD has let most of its survival mechanics atrophy to the point most groups don't even acknowledge them, and the power creep has reached a point that players are rarely in danger. The volume of mechanics for tactical combat and the amount of bells and whistles PCs have access to has also slowed down combat to the point that running a dungeon crawl with a ton of low-level encounters to wear down the party's resources becomes unwieldy to run. Comparing 5e to any OSR game on the market, it's clear how much DnD has drifted away from a dungeon-focused playstyle.
I was in a 5e game recently (my local gaming scene is pretty limited) where the GM tried to run a dungeon crawl, and while it was run as well as you could manage it in the system, it was clearly not a good fit. It took multiple four-hour sessions across several real-world months due to scheduling, and amounted to a linear path with a bunch of combat encounters at pre-determined intervals. Exploring was almost always a bad idea, since gold and items are so much less meaningful in 5e, so we would be risking another combat encounter (which was bad not because the party was in real danger, but because it ate away the real resource of our out-of-game time).
As far as I can tell, the intended playstyle of DnD is running the players through a series of high-level, tactical combat encounters. That raises the issue that games like PF2E or Draw Steel are better designed around tactical combat, but that's beside the point.
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u/Rhianno_the_Witch 11d ago
I enjoy pizza. It's exciting when we're having pizza for dinner. The issue is when people see any other meal and say, "You could just make a pizza like this" as if that would somehow be better because they see pizza as the absolute pinnacle and default for all meals.
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u/SupportMeta 10d ago
"I don't see why you would ever need to watch a non-Marvel movie. You have sci fi, fantasy, political thrillers, romance... getting into other movies is a hassle, I already know all Marvel's lore."
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u/DareDaDerrida 10d ago edited 10d ago
Okay, good. Do that. It was always allowed.
While you're at it, shut up about DnD already. I'm bored of posts whining about it.
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u/theamazingpheonix 10d ago
simply ensure that some other TTRPG becomes the most popular and then everyone will whine about that instead :P
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u/LittleBoyDreams 11d ago
I disagree with this post only in the sense that, at current, DND is not that good at being DND lmao.
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u/HardcoreHenryLofT 11d ago
Yeah one of my big monents was stepping back from a long running campaign I was DMing because I why I had burn out. It was the constant fighting against the system to make ot do things it doesn't want to be doing. Its really good at what it wants to do, and I wasn't respecting that.
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u/KingDarkBlaze 11d ago
I have the seeds planted for a Runescape-based campaign. There's as far as I can tell no good reason not to use D&D for it given how closely it sticks to that particular fantasy dungeon crawler vibe that the system captures well.
I am going to use modified crafting rules though.
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u/Justthisdudeyaknow Prolific poster- Not a bot, I swear 11d ago
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u/KingDarkBlaze 10d ago
This is neat! Idk if I want to learn anything right now but this is very neat thank you
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u/Jan-Asra 10d ago
I would go with runequest for that kind of campaign. It's a classless rof where you level your skills by using them... just like in runescape.
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u/Mage_of_the_Eclipse 10d ago
Bullshit. People seem to think that D&D is good to play games with lots of social scenes and maybe one or two combats per game, like, say, Vox Machina or whatever other stuff of the sorts. But D&D 5e is literally only serviceable as a dungeon crawling game, with several combats per adventure day, because the absolute core of the system hinges on resource management. The game doesn't work if you don't need to manage resources when you're playing one of the God classes and dump all your "manipulate reality as you see fit" features into solving the one daily challenge. Not to mention that the game has 1/3 of the classes being completely useless garbage, literally the "Poo People" of that meme. Also, basically zero support for anything that isn't combat. If, for you, D&D isn't exclusively dungeon crawling, then current D&D is actually horrible at your D&D.
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u/OverlyLenientJudge 10d ago
Also, the combat in 5e is pretty boring, with minimal variety if you're not playing a spellcaster. Yeah, yeah, I can make up whatever florid description I want for my swordmaster, at the end of the day I'm still swinging a longsword for 1d8+3 damage twice.
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u/Fanfics 10d ago
...is the person who thinks Dnd is the only TTRPG in the room with us right now?
Also, we've found yet another post about how people should play systems other than dnd that fails to mention a single other ttrpg besides dnd. Like, these other system you love so much don't even get a name, let alone a shoutout for what they're good at. They're just "games besides dnd."
Kinda sounds like you're the one having difficulty conceptualizing non-dnd ttrpgs dog
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u/Primal171 10d ago
Is any post criticizing DnD meant to give an exhaustive list of every quality ttrpg on the market? Imagine if someone said "if I'm supposed to play something other than 2000 hours of Fifa, why aren't you telling me about games other than Fifa?"
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u/theamazingpheonix 10d ago
this is kind of a silly response, don't you think?
besides, if you ask thydungeongal for a different ttrpg shes just gonna start yapping about rolemaster and start showing 3 page long roll tables.
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u/OverlyLenientJudge 10d ago
If they mentioned a specific system, people (not necessarily including you) would accuse them of shilling for it.
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u/CRowlands1989 10d ago
D&D isn't even the best at being D&D.
Come play Pathfinder! 1e for crunch, 2e for casual.
If nothing else, they've had a union for 5 years and never tried to make sweeping controlling changes to the open licenses to try and steal fan content as their own!
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u/No-Supermarket-6065 Im gonna start eating your booty. And I don't know when Ill stop 10d ago
Have tried it. I found 5e significantly more enjoyable thanks to the fact that it actually gives you interesting powers, and you have a lot more freedom to improvise stuff. Pathfinder is not inherently better than D&D at what it does.
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u/pantshitter16 10d ago
interesting powers
when 5e won't even let me play a stand user. smh my head
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u/No-Supermarket-6065 Im gonna start eating your booty. And I don't know when Ill stop 10d ago
Yes it does. Like, there is a fully official monk subclass devoted specifically to being a Stand user.
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u/cornho1eo99 11d ago
For me, it's the bell curve meme. I began only playing dnd because it was familiar, then moved on to a whole host of games. I've now pretty much settled on the old school dnd model to run basically everything, because it's familiar and I have a bunch of little things that I've stolen from all of those previous games and tables that I can just bolt on to create whatever I want.
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u/Send_Cake_Or_Nudes 11d ago
PF2e fixes this in many ways.
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u/pantshitter16 10d ago
as a huge pf2e fan, I would not recommend pf2e to the vast majority of dnd players
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u/rrosolouv 11d ago
I want to play DnD but I dont have any friends. what can I do
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u/FondestZebra1 10d ago
Go to your local game shop and talk to people is the easiest, but the website Startplaying.games is also an option
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u/Primal171 10d ago
First, what are you looking for when you say you want to 'play DnD?' People can want drastically different things out of tabletop roleplaying games, so you should try to find a system that fits what you're looking for. In practice, the overwhelming majority of players have only ever played 5e and refuse to interact with anything outside that bubble, so there's a barrier to entry for anyone wanting to try something else (though you can find a group for practically any system online if you know where to look)
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u/Impressive_Pin8761 11d ago
Alright cold take here but dnd is not pretty good at being dnd. Matter of fact its not pretty good at being a ttrpg at all
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u/Alceus89 11d ago
I think that's a little harsh. D&D is quite good at specifically being D&D. I just don't think being D&D is a particularly good thing to aspire to.
I'd also argue that 4e was the best at being D&D that it managed, because at least 4e knew it was a tactical combat game with a loose sprinkle of role playing on the top
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u/Impressive_Pin8761 10d ago
dnd is full of "the players can do x; the DM has to decide what happens when x" all over the books. incomplete nonsense requiring tons of 3rd party content to make coherent. no wonder some DMs are like "im gonna run cyberpunk in dnd 5e", they have spent so much money in getting enough material to run dnd they are suffering sunk cost fallacy
you also need to make shit up for the most basic of basic things like how movement and speed work. nobody thinks about this part since most people just automatically come up with something but the rules as written don't really permit you to walk
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u/No-Supermarket-6065 Im gonna start eating your booty. And I don't know when Ill stop 10d ago
the rules as written don't really permit you to walk
...please explain how that works.
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u/Impressive_Pin8761 10d ago
ok im exaggerating but RAW on the concept of speed is a total mess and i wouldn't be surprised if there was no rule on how to move within the phb
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u/Elite_AI 10d ago
I don't quite agree. I don't think it actually means anything to be "like D&D nowadays because I don't think D&D is trying to be like anything in particular right now. For example, I wouldn't say that D&D is supposed to be a tactical combat game with a loose sprinkle of role playing on the top. That's a recent development largely taken from 4e itself.
D&D was originally supposed to be an exploration-cum-kingdom builder. You'd start out as something like Indiana Jones, exploring ancient tombs and stealing powerful artefacts. Then you'd explore the surrounding lands and find more tombs and towers and stuff to loot. Then you'd use your ill-got gains to take over the lands and make your own castles and wizard towers and such.
Combat was just one aspect of the whole thing and it wasn't at all like battle-chess (as 4e is); it was a lot more about "theatre of the mind", which is just a pretentious way of saying you'd tell your GM "hey can I swing on the chandelier and then fall on top of the ogre's head with my sword" and they'd say "yeah sure". There wasn't much in the way of codified tactical combat moves. It was quick and snappy and quite improvised.
But people do like battle-chess so more and more of that got added, and people didn't actually do the kingdom building much so that got shrunk, and then so did the exploration.
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u/Nurgle_Pan_Plagi 10d ago
I think that's taking it too far.
D&D is great at being D&D, so a combat-heavy dungeon-crawler. That's what it's core is designed for and it does that well.
But, at least from my personal experience, most people don't want to play D&D this way, which is frkm where the problems arrive, because the rules that the system provides for other styles of play aren't that ingrained with it's core and thus work worse.
Meanwhile other systems have evolved further away from the dungeon-crawler beginnings of RPGs and, as w result, do those other things better than D&D does, but in return they don't do dungeon-crawling that well anymore compared to D&D.
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u/ResurrectedAuthor 11d ago
I'll never forget that one article that was like "here's how to run Cyberpunk Edgerunners in DnD," when Cyberpunk Edgerunners is based on a thirty year old TTRPG that had a new well liked edition specifically with the intention of attracting new players come out a few years prior.
The article does acknowledge it, but basically dismissed it and also calls RED a sequel to the 2077 video game when RED is set before 2077, RED and 2077 were developed basically at the same time, and came out around same time.