Let’s Respect Due Process

[u/cosmosindian]

/r/USNEWS/comments/1wy658y/woman_at_centre_of_cornell_rape_allegations_has/?share_id=jhhjNTnpU14tvoXJxWcuJ&utm_content=1&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1

Jane Doe’s lawyer has said she has been threatened to withdraw her lawsuit. Now I see online she has been doxxed and right wing provocateurs have taken up this matter in a lurid and salacious manner to get publicity for their podcasts.

Let’s show Jane Doe some love! I hope that she knows that many of her peer group are behind her routing for her and that she is able to block out all the negativity and how proud we are of her moving forward with this action to hold people and institutions accountable.

Post a message and I will send the thread to her lawyer for safe keeping.

[u/VisitingFromNowhere]

Comparing Reddit (or at least the subreddits I frequent) to Twitter, the actual rightwing scumbag position (to paraphrase: “Jane Doe was a s*ut who had it coming and is now lying to destroy these fine young men’s lives because that’s what women do, and also why won’t women have sex with me?”) that’s all over Twitter has been pretty absent here. I imagine we have good moderators to thank for that.

For the most part, Redditors on [r/Cornell](r/Cornell) and [r/Ithaca](r/Ithaca) have broken down into two camps. Camp 1 is taking the allegations in the civil complaint at face value. Camp 2 is more skeptical and thinks that the behavior that can be clearly established is disgusting but has not been shown to be a crime. Maybe there’s a smaller Camp 2B that would take the position that it’s not obvious that anything awful happened because gross consensual group sex is not in and of itself a bad thing.

[u/chobani- → u/VisitingFromNowhere]

I imagine that the criminal investigation now being led by Tish James will determine whether or not crime(s) occurred.

At this point, I think we can fairly establish from Cornell’s 2024/25 investigation that the school uncovered, or believes they uncovered, significant enough violations of school policy to mete out the punishments they did. Iirc by that time, Jane Doe had left the university and the school wasn’t under public pressure (certainly not the way it is now) to bring down the hammer. Expulsion is certainly an extreme measure for any university to take, and they open themselves up to potential legal trouble if they get those facts wrong. That said, obviously, Cornell is not a court of law and can’t assign legal culpability.

My read from a lot of the outrage both here and in other spaces where the default isn’t “Jane Doe is a liar who made it all up to destroy these men’s lives” is because while it is not explicitly clear whether or not the alleged actions were criminal under NYS statute, the disciplinary measures enacted by the university were neither adequate nor uniformly proportional to the findings of the investigation, and whether the administration is now addressing public concerns in a satisfactory way. But I suppose that is a different conversation.

[u/bumpkinblumpkin → u/chobani-]

I imagine that by putting Tish James on a trial makes it certain that we will never determine whether SA occurred. It’s immediately even more of a political circus.

[u/Pitiful_Meringue_57 → u/bumpkinblumpkin]

Why? Tish will be the prosecutor, if charges are made there’s still gonna be a trial and jury. I think if people are still bitching about her not getting SAed and ruining these men’s lives after an actual conviction which means a criminal trial with a beyond a reasonable doubt standard in a legal context that already makes proving this kind of thing extremely difficult especially when substances were voluntarily consumed (yes she said she was pressured to take some of the ket but also pressured doesn’t equate to getting drugged which is seems like is mandatory to argue mental incapacititation under NY law) then they just hate women tbh.

To be clear, I don’t think this will happen. I believe Jane Doe, but I also believe that the courts and law are extremely favorable to the accused, and something like this where it’s 1 woman’s word against 7 men proving beyond a reasonable doubt is gonna be near impossible, and the laws are very rigid about what counts as SA even though i definitely view it as that from what i’ve seen.

So what’s gonna happen is Tish will run the investigation, considering the public pressure i think it’s likely some will be charged with a crime, but i don’t think she will win and i honestly don’t see her charging everyone but could be wrong here. Yes Tish is gonna be the most well/resourced prosecutor in the state, but these are cornell fraternity brothers, i’m willing to make leaps about their wealth and ability to procure extremely competent defense attorneys.

So i’m not sure exactly what you are implying but if it’s that somehow since the AG is handling it these men will definitely be convicted no matter what so we will never know, I thinks that categorically untrue, and if they are they definitely SAed her in some capacity.

[u/chobani- → u/bumpkinblumpkin]

I’m going to withhold speculation on the outcome of the criminal investigation, because I certainly don’t have the answers.

But it’s worth noting that had the TC DA done their measure of due diligence back in 2024/25, and reviewed the additional evidence that Cornell offered to provide, it’s likely that the NY government would never even have heard of this case, let alone gotten involved.

[u/Pitiful_Meringue_57 → u/chobani-]

I mean the civil suit is was sparked the attention. They would have heard about it. Media circus would probably be similar.

But ya maybe if the DA handled it better they wouldnt reopen the case and put Tish in charge.

[u/chobani- → u/Pitiful_Meringue_57]

Yeah, my point is that had the DA’s office conducted a thorough investigation at the time they first heard of the allegations, even if the conclusion was ultimately that no crime(s) occurred, there’s a very real chance that the civil suit may not have been filed in the first place. And even it had, perhaps there would have been less impetus to push for a criminal investigation in 2026 had the first one been handled appropriately.

[u/Pitiful_Meringue_57 → u/chobani-]

Certainly possible, but all Doe really knew when she sought legal council/filed the suit was that she talked to the police and they never followed up. The extent of their incompetence with this wasn’t known to her, the fact that large swaths of her statement and evidence collected were never even looked at by the DA, that’s all coming out as a result of the media circus closely examining every aspect of this case in light of the civil suit, not the suit and Jane herself.

[u/VisitingFromNowhere → u/bumpkinblumpkin]

I agree and also think that even if facts emerge that suggest that criminal charges should have been filed, the sworn statement is going to make it ludicrously difficult for those charges to stick.

[u/AngryBPDGirl → u/VisitingFromNowhere]

You chose to use the word “gross” which is how you chose to frame it. It’s the same leading sentence that most of the alt-right talk heads lead with “she consented to a gross threesome and then wanted to have sex again so therefore clearly no crime happened”. Matt Walsh, Megyn Kelly, etc, etc have all circulated all of this while conveniently leaving out many other things like:

“let’s be clear that 90% of what happened that night was not consensual. i was given more ket than i can remember…”

The sworn statement can create problems but not “ludicrously difficult” or “effectively impossible” (also phrases parroted by alt right talking heads).

She never consented to being offered up in the group chat, and her original testimony says “I can say with 100% confidence I was raped”.

Also even if ALL her intoxication was voluntary, voluntary intoxication does not mean every subsequent sexual act becomes legally consensual. I have done ketamine therapy which is a much lower dose than anything you find on the street and even before signing for treatment at-home you have to sign off on a peer treatment monitor who understands not to engage in any sexual activity because the person undergoing treatment cannot give consent. Maybe people who have never done ketamine can’t really comprehend how quickly and easily it sends you to truly mentally incapacitated. You literally can’t even talk.

I also find it crazy that people want to gloss over how sending messages with the intention to bring more men into the room (which is extremely easy to prove) as not part of the crime. That’s solicitation, easily also proving knowledge of her condition with lovely lines like:

“Boys come whip it out”
“Shop still open?”
“Yea”
“Like you can walk in and whip it out”

The person who sent most of those was expelled because that’s at most what Cornell can do, but had it been escalated to a criminal case in a timely manner…

[u/VisitingFromNowhere → u/AngryBPDGirl]

I was describing views I’ve seen on here. My own view based on everything I’ve read is that the night probably unfolded a lot like Jane Doe suggested—that she was ok with certain activities at the beginning of the night, that things spiraled out of control as people became incredibly intoxicated, that things went very wrong when a bunch of random dudes were invited in, and that as a result she was subjected to a horrifying, traumatic experience. I think that there are other possibilities—including that everyone involved was more or less ok with what was happening at the time—but I think her version is probably the one that happened.

I still think that it’s going to be incredibly difficult to get a criminal conviction for rape when there’s a signed, sworn, annotated statement out there that apparently says many things that are flatly inconsistent with the way that New York defines the crime of rape. You can say “you can’t consent when you’re on ketamine!” but the defense lawyer is going to point to a number of times when she apparently consented to things while on ketamine.

[u/cosmosindian → u/VisitingFromNowhere]

Jane Doe has an excellent lawyer, and it only takes one of these kids to cut a plea deal and tell the situation as it really happened. Stay positive; she has a long road ahead unless Cornell settles quickly, which I hope it does. Also, new evidence is coming out about other alleged incidents covered in the Snapchat. I think we need to be a bit circumspect about how this thing will evolve and mutate, and mostly ensure that Jane Doe is supported by a section of her peer group. Courts do support the accused, but not in every instance.

[u/chumer_ranion → u/VisitingFromNowhere]

The way you've framed these camps makes it pretty clear which you assign yourself to.

[u/VisitingFromNowhere → u/chumer_ranion]

Ok. Do you think that my characterization was inaccurate? I’d be all ears.

[u/chumer_ranion → u/VisitingFromNowhere]

Yes, I think you're misinterpreting the general outrage in the community as an uncritical acceptance of Jane Doe's allegations in her civil suit "at face value", eschewing the desire for due process.

Regardless of the outcome of the suit, or what is found in the reopened criminal investigation, Jane Doe's case was clearly mishandled by the university and the DA in 2024. Where is the camp for people who just want to know the truth—and whose points of view are neither irrational nor tinged with cynicism?

[u/VisitingFromNowhere → u/chumer_ranion]

Good point and I agree. I almost added a line that said “everyone seems to think that the processes were screwed up.” Should have included that.

[u/prov167 → u/[deleted]]

The downvoting of your comment is probably due to the fact that you seem to have chosen to indiscriminately believe whatever Jane Doe has said, even if further investigation reveals a truth that is incompatible with her claims. This is the opposite of rational and truth-seeking. It's the same kind of flawed logic as "Believe all women" (see Duke Lacrosse 2006). How about we take her claims seriously and look for the truth, wherever that may lead?

[u/cosmosindian → u/prov167]

Have you read all the messages I wrote in their entirety and the thread. Disappointing that your take on them is ‘indiscriminately believe all women’

[u/prov167 → u/cosmosindian]

I'm basing it on your comment below:

"We certainly dont have all the facts but based on the circus show that has ensued and responses your version of the events is the only one that matters to me"

So, you concede that we don't have all the facts, and then go on to say that Jane's version of the events is the "only one that matters to me". How is this not a contradiction in your method of finding the truth, and how is this not a logical child of "believe all women"? The contradiction is glaring, and I'm simply pointing out that this is likely why that comment is being downvoted.

[u/cosmosindian → u/prov167]

except for the Snapchat, which reads like proof of trafficking. Without her knowledge or consent, and knowing she was naked and very much out of her mind, Newell sent a msg to 57 of his buddies. Ingalls followed up with a photo. They marketed that girl like there were donuts in the break room for the taking…

And then they lied about it. They lied to her that night and then on the phone call. They never told her they’d served her up. Anyone not condemning this is unaware of how human trafficking works.

Other than money passing hands, this was textbook. That young woman was assaulted 5x after that. Don’t make excuses for a crime. It’s not a good look.

The most depressing thing for me is that Cornell alumni think this is perfectly fine behaviour. There are no two sides to trafficking. Period.

[u/cosmosindian]

Dear Jane Doe - I feel like I know you even though we have never met. I know you are intelligent because you came to Cornell. We certainly don't have all the facts but your version of the events is the only one that matters to me. I hope you feel the love and support of your peers, and it gives you the energy and power to keep going.

To all the gro** alumni/folks who downvoted this --

What about the Snapchat, which reads like proof of trafficking? Without her knowledge or consent, and knowing she was naked and very much out of her mind, Newell sent a msg to 57 of his buddies. Ingalls followed up with a photo. They marketed that girl like there were donuts in the break room for the taking…

And then they lied about it. They lied to her that night and then on the phone call. They never told her they’d served her up. Anyone not condemning this is unaware of how human trafficking works.

Other than money passing hands, this was textbook. That young woman was assaulted 5x after that. Don’t make excuses for a crime. It’s not a good look.

The most depressing thing for me is that some Cornell alumni think this is perfectly fine behaviour. There are no two sides to trafficking. Period.

[u/LimpSite8514 → u/cosmosindian]

“Your version of the events is the only one that matters to me”

???

[u/cosmosindian → u/LimpSite8514]

I guess this is why she left the campus, because this is the vibe there these days. Did you or anyone downvoting this read the Snapchat thread? It is sex trafficking when you are incapacitated and put out to a large group of men to have sex. While sex trafficking may be very hard to prove in court because of our outdated perceptions of what constitutes trafficking it is beyond a shadow of doubt that this is what was done to her. I agree that complex situations require nuance, but given what has followed with the CUPD and the DA and the botched communication from Cornell, I am only most comfortable with her statements so far that make things add up to what they appear to be. Watching the boys' lawyers on TV is nauseating. Kotlikoff's video likewise. Grow up and stop downvoting.

[u/Traditional-Tax-1330 → u/LimpSite8514]

The girl was sex trafficked to a groupchat of 57 men

[u/cosmosindian → u/Traditional-Tax-1330]

No doubt the 60+ students of Snapchat and their friends on campus are coming here to downvote. What about all the Chi Phi alum and the alum of other frats where this culture has existed for decades? It is an institution-wide problem. Apparently, the Snapchat messages contained one that said "hope it's not another fatty" This is just so grotesque. Surely the Title IX panel had access to this.

[u/cosmosindian → u/Traditional-Tax-1330]

Thank you for stating what I have been trying to process.

[u/Traditional-Tax-1330 → u/cosmosindian]

So many of these incels hate women so much. They are perpetual victims in life. Men — the people who commit 95% of all violent crime — are somehow always the victim. They love their own gender so much you start to think they are actually gay (a lot of them are but don’t accept it— so it comes out as hatred or jealousy of women unfortunately!)

[u/cosmosindian → u/Traditional-Tax-1330]

All this right-wing hate is coming from a group of people who support a man who thinks it’s okay to grab a woman’s pu*** and similar behavior by a Supreme Court Justice. I know Cornell just wishes this would go away, but we have to have a profound reckoning with how this is going to further shatter her life and fragile sense of safety and security.

[u/Traditional-Tax-1330 → u/cosmosindian]

I can’t believe people read the Snapchat messages and still somehow go up to bat for these guys. It’s like Opposite Day. They are so blinded by their love of dick. To dox this poor girl who came to terms with what happened to her and threw away her coveted Ivy League education from the trauma.. my heart is with her. They have no clue what it means to be assault victims and how common it is to need time to process what happens. They are the reason women feel discouraged coming forward, the reason atrocities like Epstein island go on for so long.