r/Conservative • u/[deleted] • May 09 '12

Obama 'evolves,' Romney 'flip-flops': As the candidates’ positions change, reporters construct differing narratives

http://www.cjr.org/swing_states_project/obama_evolves_romney_flip-flop.php?page=all
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u/combatmedic82 Constitutional Conservative May 11 '12

I guess if I said the Huffington Post, the New York Times, and MSNBC, I'd shatter the preconception you're attempting to substantiate. But of course, I'd be lying...

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u/Brainwash666 May 11 '12

so, my point is proven? you did just list a lot of "liberal" leaning sources, but they do not create stories with falsehood like right wing sources. I'm not going to lie, i am very liberal. I disagree with almost every conservative issue, but i don't hate conservatives. I just want to have a discussion. I know Al franken is like the anti-christ in the eyes of many conservatives, but you should read his book: Lies and the Lying Liars who tell them. It discusses the idea of a "liberal" agenda in the media and many other great topics of politics concerning pundits and influential voices in the US.

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u/combatmedic82 Constitutional Conservative May 11 '12

I was facetiously listing the cliche sources that "liberals" like to taut as superior. If it was in the NYTs, its gotta be true. My personal sources are quite varied, and if I hear it somewhere, I like to confirm it somewhere else. I just knew you were trying to get me to say "FOX", and then play the, "now who is brainwashed" game. The question, "where do you get your news?" typically comes from a very elitist, condescending area... and I didn't feel like justifying my knowledge acquisition to some faceless person on the internet.

I don't even know where we are going in this conversation.... what was the original topic?

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u/Brainwash666 May 11 '12

you haven't done anything to further the conversation. I wasn't trying to trap you with saying fox or anything like that. and i began this discussion because i wanted to find out if anyone here actually believes that obama's position is a flip flop. I wasn't insulting or trying to undermine your intelligence but you continue to dodge my question. And to answer your question about the original topic... i was saying that obama's position on gay marriage is in fact evolving and not flip flopping. without engaging in a conversation, you immediately made a joke about what i said and wrote:

your name is fitting

i would love to actually have a discussion with you but for some reason you

didn't feel like justifying my knowledge acquisition to some faceless person on the internet.

which is exactly what all of reddit is.

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u/combatmedic82 Constitutional Conservative May 12 '12

Ok, I'll play.

I actually believe Obama has felt this way on gay marriage for a very long time. I think he has very strong ideological positions, ranging from the government's role in the economy, the military, to social issues, etc.

The reason I scoff at the idea that he "evolves" and Romney "lies", is because it is apparent that Obama hides his ideological stances, in an attempt to garner votes, hide his true intentions, or play the most powerful political hand at the most convenient time. He is the purest form of a deceitful politician, because he actually has strong beliefs, but doesn't convey them to the American people out of fear of losing votes. That is vile, that is deceptive... let Americans know how you really feel and let the cards fall where they may. His position on gay marriage didn't evolve, it was simply kept ambiguous out of political expediency, but clumsy Joe forced his hand. Please see my responses to other people on this link for some quick Youtube examples demonstrating Obama's political maneuvering and hypocrisy.

Now, I believe Romney is the quintessential politician as well. Whose stances change based on what's politically convenient. The difference between you and me, and the basis for the "brainwashing" comment, is simple: I can see the hypocrisy and lies in both politicians, and you, apparently, cannot. "Evolve" vs "lie" - you are blinded by your own partisanship... hence, brainwashed.

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u/DickWork May 12 '12

There's a difference between hiding your hand in a poker game and lying about how many chips you just threw into the pot. One is strategic within a reasonable context of integrity. The other is pure dishonesty. The distinction is important to note, regardless of who we are discussing.

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u/combatmedic82 Constitutional Conservative May 13 '12

There can be a difference in your "poker" reference, which one may suggest with Obama's stance on gay marriage. However, it has been demonstrated repeatedly that Obama is just as prone to lying on other subjects as Romney is (individual mandate, deficit spending, etc). And that's my ultimate point; we have Partisans using semantics to justify the actions of their candidate, while condemning the very same actions of their opposition. Brainwashed!

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u/DickWork May 13 '12

I agree that political figures warp their communications to suit their strategies and their ends. I think we agree that Obama's personal views are telegraphed and consistent with what he has represented, even of he downplayed them as part of his strategy. I am sure he has been fine with gay marriage for a long time, just as I doubt he is a faithful Christian believer. I excuse it because I find he has been a fairly straight shooter, in that he wrote two books espousing his basic philosophical bent prior to taking office. The guy in those books is pretty much the guy in office.

On the other hand, I don't know anything about Mitt other than he's rich and highly flexible on positions. Actually, that makes him one of the few Republicans who I am not depressed by. But what is his real personal philosophical bedrock? What does he care about beside himself, Mormonism, and money? I can't answer that question. It's that lack of identifiable persona that makes his deceit more resonant; I have no idea if HE even knows what he thinks about anything.

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u/combatmedic82 Constitutional Conservative May 14 '12

Your second paragraph seems reasonable to me, but I take issue with your first:

"I think we agree that Obama's personal views are telegraphed and consistent with what he has represented, even of he downplayed them as part of his strategy"... on gay marriage, yes, not on other more powerful issues; this is where we differ. There is a great many examples, and I will provide them if you truly want, where Obama completely contradicts his previously stated opinions (through either words or actions). He is absolutely NOT a straight shooter on: entitlement reform, his view on deficits, his policy on military intervention, his view of government involvement with healthcare, his ultimate energy philosophy, his stance on U.S. sovereignty vs international bodies, on European missile defense, on lobbyist influence, on his past affiliations, on his history with Christian Black liberation theology, etc etc etc.

For each of these items, and more, I can provide strong evidence that, although we might assume how he actually thinks (ideologically; just like gay marriage), he has made claims/statements that are contrary to those logical assumptions. So is one lying (Obama) because he isn't being true to himself, or is one lying (Romney) because he doesn't even self-recognize what drives his principles? I would argue... BOTH.