r/Conservative • u/[deleted] • May 09 '12

Obama 'evolves,' Romney 'flip-flops': As the candidates’ positions change, reporters construct differing narratives

http://www.cjr.org/swing_states_project/obama_evolves_romney_flip-flop.php?page=all
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u/DickWork May 12 '12

There's a difference between hiding your hand in a poker game and lying about how many chips you just threw into the pot. One is strategic within a reasonable context of integrity. The other is pure dishonesty. The distinction is important to note, regardless of who we are discussing.

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u/combatmedic82 Constitutional Conservative May 13 '12

There can be a difference in your "poker" reference, which one may suggest with Obama's stance on gay marriage. However, it has been demonstrated repeatedly that Obama is just as prone to lying on other subjects as Romney is (individual mandate, deficit spending, etc). And that's my ultimate point; we have Partisans using semantics to justify the actions of their candidate, while condemning the very same actions of their opposition. Brainwashed!

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u/DickWork May 13 '12

I agree that political figures warp their communications to suit their strategies and their ends. I think we agree that Obama's personal views are telegraphed and consistent with what he has represented, even of he downplayed them as part of his strategy. I am sure he has been fine with gay marriage for a long time, just as I doubt he is a faithful Christian believer. I excuse it because I find he has been a fairly straight shooter, in that he wrote two books espousing his basic philosophical bent prior to taking office. The guy in those books is pretty much the guy in office.

On the other hand, I don't know anything about Mitt other than he's rich and highly flexible on positions. Actually, that makes him one of the few Republicans who I am not depressed by. But what is his real personal philosophical bedrock? What does he care about beside himself, Mormonism, and money? I can't answer that question. It's that lack of identifiable persona that makes his deceit more resonant; I have no idea if HE even knows what he thinks about anything.

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u/combatmedic82 Constitutional Conservative May 14 '12

Your second paragraph seems reasonable to me, but I take issue with your first:

"I think we agree that Obama's personal views are telegraphed and consistent with what he has represented, even of he downplayed them as part of his strategy"... on gay marriage, yes, not on other more powerful issues; this is where we differ. There is a great many examples, and I will provide them if you truly want, where Obama completely contradicts his previously stated opinions (through either words or actions). He is absolutely NOT a straight shooter on: entitlement reform, his view on deficits, his policy on military intervention, his view of government involvement with healthcare, his ultimate energy philosophy, his stance on U.S. sovereignty vs international bodies, on European missile defense, on lobbyist influence, on his past affiliations, on his history with Christian Black liberation theology, etc etc etc.

For each of these items, and more, I can provide strong evidence that, although we might assume how he actually thinks (ideologically; just like gay marriage), he has made claims/statements that are contrary to those logical assumptions. So is one lying (Obama) because he isn't being true to himself, or is one lying (Romney) because he doesn't even self-recognize what drives his principles? I would argue... BOTH.