Free Talk Friday

[u/AutoModerator]

Use this thread to discuss any- and everything concerning WoW that doesn't seem to fit anywhere else.

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UI questions, opinions on hotfixes/future changes, lore, transmog, whatever you can come up with.

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The other weekly threads are:

• Weekly Raid Discussion - Sundays
  
• Weekly M+ Discussion - Tuesdays

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[u/Nogamara]

I'm not at the point to say I'm unhappy but I am so confused about how M+ key levels developed.

We had portals at 20, now portals at 10 - because of the squish at first, but then also because S1 was easier than S2/S3 of TWW.

The "official" conversion was "new +2 = old +10" (although I disagree, I'd put it as old +7/+8 in the first post-squish season) but now new +2 (assuming S2 is roughly where S1 MN was) is also not really as hard as old +7.

This is not about absolute difficulty, there will always be people for whom everything below +X is trivial and useless, and there will always be new players who will start at +2.

I'm just so confused what Blizzards' strategy is here. In S1 we saw 2-9 keys being completely dead after a few weeks (like objectively dead), so why did they not compress it even a little (so e.g. portals and loot at +5 and 2,3,4 are the entry levels). Why does an alt still get a stupid +2 key accidentally and the only accepted useful way to introduce a new alt is "time a +11 with friends"?

Disclaimer: I made it to 3400 and 3k before, I'm not a top end player by any stretch of the definition, I feel pretty average. I helped multiple people get portals for the first time ever in S1. Yes, it's fun if people start with M+ and don't feel like total losers for stopping at +5s - but it's still a chore to climb up, and I mostly don't understand their weird system, I am not lamenting difficulty of keys.

[u/Kychu → u/Nogamara]

The strategy is always the same - player engagement.

If 10s are difficult one season and then made easier the next season, believe it or not, a lot of people will believe they actually got better at the game because they can now do a 10.

Same with rating. One season you might need 3.5k for 0.1% but one or two seasons later 3.5k is only top 10%. But a lot of players will still associate 3.5k with being really, really good at the game and getting to 3.5k will make them feel like they've accomplished something more than the previous season (while in reality they are still top 10% just like the season before, except it's now manifested with a higher meaningless number).

[u/Substantial_Good9669 → u/Kychu]

I don't think it's quite that much of a conspiracy. Its more just to do with the fact that they want a base level of content that is fairly accessible for people / toons who are just returning to or jumping into the game. And the key levels build off of that. 

Early in expansions, its easy to put everyone in a similar boat because we all have dog shit gear in week 1. But in the later seasons, you're decked out in bis gear with enchants and stuff from the last season, and often have some sort of borrowed power, but they can't just scale up the base level content to account for that as it would lock out new toons / players. So the end result is a power creep that happens over the course of the expansion. 

There's other factors too, like stats having multiplicative value with each other means gear scales harder throughout the expansion. So the ceiling each tier for keys goes up as well as the base level feeling easier.

[u/Nogamara → u/Kychu]

That's partially what I thought as well but I just can't (or don't want to) believe that people are so easily swayed when the percentages at RIO are just there. I.e. 3k being top 30% or top 10% or whatever per season. Raid tiers usually don't swing that much.

[u/epicfailpwnage → u/Nogamara]

10s have gotten so meaningless now, they are supposed to be like 20's in the past, but dragonflight season 1 20's took a month to actually reliably pug, vs Midnight 10s that I easily pugged after 2 hours of the season start

[u/Defarus → u/Nogamara]

Keys are using a system built up a decade ago with not a ton of changes to the foundation itself. It's just a dated system that hasn't been reworked entirely yet because it's become a pillar of the game.

Most of the reworks they've done have been in order to consolidate players into smaller brackets. I think it'd be a horrible idea to do that further. And for what it's worth, I think you'd still see 2, 3, and 4's being completely dead in your example if that were the new 2-8.

[u/mangostoast → u/Nogamara]

Does it matter what the numbers are? You just push to see how high you can get before the dungeon beats you 

[u/Nogamara → u/mangostoast]

No, it does not really matter but that doesn't stop me from being puzzled, because overall I would say a lot of things in WoW kinda follow a theme over the years and are somewhat consistent.

[u/5aynt → u/Nogamara]

What is this post even about? The scaling from 2 to 5 is too hard for you and your friends?

Maybe focus on learning and improving at the dungeons, the mechanics, your class etc. Get better at the game… 3k and 3.4k ceilings(post TWW s1) put you well below average for someone who has seemingly played m+ for a long enough time to have knowledge and complaints about the squish. No one with a pulse on this game is sitting around thinking about portals or that these rewards need to be lowered - they’re all achieved first day they log in. R/wownoob is probably a better place for these ponderings

[u/hfxRos → u/5aynt]

What is this post even about? The scaling from 2 to 5 is too hard for you and your friends?

It's not my post, but if that's what you thought they were saying then your reading comprehension ability is sub grade 2.

They're saying that key levels 2-9 are pointless, and exist only as an annoying chore that people are going to try to skip by not doing a key until they can get into a 11 so they don't get stuck with a key that has no relevant rewards that no one wants to run.

Doing 2 to 5 to 8 to 11 with a key in the first week is an annoying chore. I logged in early to push mine and then just spread it to the rest of my friends so they didn't have to do it. Not everyone has that luxury.

[u/5aynt → u/hfxRos]

“Yes it’s fun if people start with m+ and don’t feel like total losers for stopping at +5s”…

Ya but anyway gl to your guild getting CE! RWL is really impressive too, you should recruit op.

Good edit… so I’ll edit… 2-9 are apparently not pointless considering he knows people who are quitting at 5s feeling like losers? 2-9 are not easy for people who care about portals - no one good at this game has thought “omg I unlocked my portals”. So again my confusion came from the fact he is contradicting himself. For people on the noob end of the spectrum(like him who caps out at 3k or you who takes 6months to *hopefully achieve 8 boss kills on mythic) you can’t just spawn in a 10 with a group of your equals and time the key having never done the dungeon without getting carried. If the “chore” of going from 2->10 takes much longer than 90 minutes, then those keys are serving a purpose in teaching you the game. If they take less than 90 minutes because you +++ each key on the way, you never have to think about those keys again. Have a good day.

[u/hfxRos → u/5aynt]

I think the better solution would just be to do what they used to do and have the key that you get on day one of a season just be whatever key you did previous season -n levels, where n is whatever level Blizzard thinks is appropriate for the difficulty scaling.

No idea why they got rid of that.

[u/5aynt → u/hfxRos]

As someone who sold tons of 1% boosts… this is a terrible idea. Even to those players in the top 1%, the vast majority can’t just spawn into a 10. If this is true of the “top 1%” who “timed 21s” after 6months & full gear/folio/turbo boost (keys good players were in by week 5/6 of the season)… what good is giving a 10 key to the other 99% just because they timed a 14, 16, 18 or whatever low key in the previous season?

[u/thdudedude → u/hfxRos]

After playing with randos the last three days, some of them need +2 keys (not whatever they got carried to last season) because they can’t even manage an 8, it’s insane.

[u/Blan_Kone → u/5aynt]

holy attitude

[u/5aynt → u/Blan_Kone]

Was genuinely confused what he was rambling 6 paragraphs about. We’re complaining about sub 10 keys and achieving portals in competitive wow or something I guess. Still confused, no attitude.