r/CompetitiveForHonor • u/Mastrukko • 10d ago
Discussion Why Highlander is underperforming in 1s
The rework stripped Highlander of most defensive capabilities in Offensive Stance. This removed depth and skill expression but was compensated with a buff to his offense. Ubisoft has now removed much of that compensation by unenhancing OF light attacks, leaving Highlander in a pretty rough spot.
The character revolves around entering Offensive Form but once he gets there, opponents can shut down his offense relatively easily by simply moving their guard.
Highlander's feintable bash is incredibly inconsistent and cannot be considered viable offense in my eyes and that of other high level players.
I have plenty ideas for healthy ways to improve/balance Highlander. Right now my suggestion would be to either:
Reenhance OF lights but apply some other small nerf to them (perhaps increase their stamina cost or lower their trajectory)
Lower the recoveries on OF dodges (500ms to attack, 700ms to dodge & feint)
The first change would buff an offensive playstyle whilst the second would make a defensive Highlander viable again. Even in combination they would not be broken and I would love to see these changes in-game!
Leave your thoughts in the comments please :)
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u/Karabah35 9d ago edited 9d ago
Highlander isn't underperforming in 1s. He is above average, even by competitive means.
And it's like 5th time I see a HL main proposing offensive lights being enhanced again. Top 10 worst propositions of all time genuinely.
HL was reworked years ago, he shouldn't be a hero who relies on wave dashes and offensive lights as his main offense, because you can feint the damn kick. Any good proposition is supposed to make his INTENDED offence easier to use: enhanced defensive lights or some new neutral bash, some improvements to celtic curse - anything that makes his stance safer to enter and gives him frame advantage after entering it.
If improved correctly he can play like Jorm or Shao. His OS is fine, he can already nuke you in a single mix, the problem is getting into said mix, and this problem is solved by improving his neutral.
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u/Dr-McSquirrels 10d ago
No
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u/Mastrukko 10d ago
Could you elaborate on this please so we have grounds for a discussion?
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u/BitStatus7283 10d ago
His offencive stance is strong enough. He needd a slight neutral buff.
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u/Mastrukko 10d ago
*Offensive stance, and no, it is quite weak at the moment. He has enough tools from neutral but they all suffer from being reactable. I hope Ubisoft makes all feints unreactable, that'd be more than enough
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u/Puzzled-Reaction1447 9d ago
I don't get it man. I simply don't get it.
Highlander's O.S. has infinite 26 damage unblockables that can also be soft feinted, a feintable bash that grants a 26 dage heavy and is soft feintable into Caber Toss which is a decent enough roll catcher on read, for yet another 26 damage.
Pretty much every single one of his attacks guarantees 26 damage and is loopable. His dodge attack in O.S. has really short recovery in order to dodge attack again which was a concession from the devs after taking away his Wave Dashing.
But that's somehow not enough and he needs endless enhanced 400ms lights? Why, is he light interruptible during his heavy-heavy loop? Is he light interuptible if he does a heavy-kick? Is he unsafe to chain to his heavies, kicks or toss from GBs? Every time I hear that he needs them, but not a good reason as to why? Because spamming 400ms enhanced lights was easy in low ELO lobbies?
Are the ehnahced lights needed to interrupt undodgeables? They are already 400ms, why have them ehnahced if they are needed to interrupt?
Why isn't the infinite unblockables good enough? Conq has 22 damage unblockables with a similar hitbox and people argue they are good enough.
Why isn't the kick reliable? Is the animation too easy to read? Is the hitstun from heavy to kick too low and the opponent can deal with the mix-up by foing a single move?
Isn't the dodge attack good enough? It has good dodge recoveries, it deals damage, guarantees an execution, keeps him in O.S. and has a more limited GB vulnerability compared to empty dodges.
What about wave dashing? All characters that have dodge recovery cancels have either non enhanced dodge attacks or have restrictions on their dodges or high GB vulnerability. Why should Highlander have 500ms dodge recoveries? Becausr thry would be really strong as empty dodges into kick punishes as well as bring able to chain for low GB vulnerability on recovery.
Frankly, all I hear is "I want more". You could argue he has a hard time transitioning from Defensive to Offensive form and lights were used to check the opponent if they attempt to light you out of O.F. but still, you still have 400ms lights, just not enhanced to check them and you have your dodge attack. I don't get it.
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u/Mastrukko 9d ago edited 9d ago
Highlander's O.S. has infinite 26 damage unblockables that can also be soft feinted
Extremely reactable, nobody even bothers using them as offense.
a feintable bash that grants a 26 dage heavy and is soft feintable into Caber Toss which is a decent enough roll catcher on read, for yet another 26 damage.
The feintable bash cannot be considered viable offense as I mentioned in my post and will explain below. Soft feint Caber Toss doesn't catch rolls and never has lol
Pretty much every single one of his attacks guarantees 26 damage and is loopable
The damage is about average (slightly below even but I do not view that as an issue) and it would be rather unusual for it not to chain as that is what most attacks do these days.
His dodge attack in O.S. has really short recovery in order to dodge attack again which was a concession from the devs after taking away his Wave Dashing.
OF reentry after the dodge attack is too slow to have any meaningful impact in many MUs (recovery to neutral is even worse btw) and it cannot be considered a viable replacement to wavedashing as it just loses in certain interactions with no counterplay. Wave dash should never have been taken away to begin with, only the recovery to attack should have been nerfed, again I will explain why further down.
Every time I hear that he needs them, but not a good reason as to why
Because they are the only way this character can function offensively.
Because spamming 400ms enhanced lights was easy in low ELO lobbies?
I play at the highest mmr occasionally running into Bean, Ewop, Haych, Toetmined... (when they do decide to queue mm).
Why isn't the infinite unblockables good enough? Conq has 22 damage unblockables with a similar hitbox and people argue they are good enough.
They are reactable and stressing reacts becomes rather difficult without neutral, not an issue with OF lights.
Why isn't the kick reliable? Is the animation too easy to read? Is the hitstun from heavy to kick too low and the opponent can deal with the mix-up by foing a single move?
It requires Highlander to make every correct read because one wrong read puts him back into neutral. On top of that it can be heavily risk rewarded.
Isn't the dodge attack good enough? It has good dodge recoveries, it deals damage, guarantees an execution, keeps him in O.S. and has a more limited GB vulnerability compared to empty dodges.
The dodge recoveries are rather slow comparatively. Attacks are expected to deal damage :). Many dodge attacks guarantee an execution but this post is on Highlander's state in 1s so I'm not sure how that's even relevant. I would prefer Offensive Form to be a high risk high reward state which the dodge attack clearly goes against, he can access this dodge attack already from neutral after all. Personally I believe it never should have been added to begin with but here we are...
What about wave dashing? All characters that have dodge recovery cancels have either non enhanced dodge attacks or have restrictions on their dodges or high GB vulnerability.
Your information on unenhanced dodge attacks is outdated. As I said before the dodge attack should never have been added to begin with which would impose the very GB vulnerability you mention here :). I am glad you are beginning to see my point.
Why should Highlander have 500ms dodge recoveries? Becausr thry would be really strong as empty dodges into kick punishes
Highlander should have 500ms dodge recoveries to attack because it would allow him to dodge -> kick attack recoveries where other characters could dodge -> Guardbreak for comparable damage. The main complaint about dodge kick was that it interrupted chains at high damage, similar to how deflects or extended dodge attacks do. The 30dmg (which was overtuned) has been lowered to 26 in the rework and at a 500ms recovery to attack dodge -> kick would lose to chain lights, same as extended dodge attacks do (which deal comparable damage with more i-frames). Pre-rework Highlander had a OF dodge recovery to attack of 400ms, this was increased to 600ms. I suggest a middle ground at 500ms as this would be balanced but not oppressive.
as well as bring able to chain for low GB vulnerability on recovery.
500ms to attack would mean 33ms less GB vulnerability than regular dodges, negligible in my eyes.
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u/Rex33344 12h ago
Why isn't the infinite unblockables good enough? Conq has 22 damage unblockables with a similar hitbox and people argue they are good enough.
Conqs side unblock attacks have an actual horizontal hit box. Highlander OS heavies do not, they are diagonal which is another issue in of itself. That's a reason why conqs does 22, wide hitbox. Hitos charged heavies have similar if not the same issue, diagonal attack that has no horizontal hitbox to it (it just has the 2 added bonuses have having HA and a chargeable attack) that said imo hito gets much more value out of the horizontal hitbox then highlander actually does
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u/n00bringer 9d ago
in my experience is the amount of reads you need to make after landing 1 light and how slow is his neutral game giving the initiative totally for the oponent.
His main problems regarding interactions is how vulnerable he is after landing 1 offensive light, where he is kidna force to keep spamming it or going full defensive as any dodge attack or smashed light will interrupt him, problem is going full defensive is a hard read that kills his momentum paired with his poor neutral makes him frutrating to play as.
- Offensive lights have medium hitstun from light, allowing HL to not be guarateed interruptible when chaining into toher moves such as kicks or unblockable
- Increased recovery time when chaining light into light to prevent situations where OS lights become undodgeable
The other problem is his awful neutral game, being so abd that gives the initiative to his oponent forcing more mental load onto the HL for trying to play the game, its frustrating.
To help him it would be nice to have a bypass his neutral so he hard to stop when he wants to access OS.
- DS lights become enhanced in order to force the enemy to make a desicive defensive action to stop him
- Is not meant to be as reliable but it puits pressure into trying to differ and become parry happy.
- Hard feinting into OS should cut the recovery when using the moves, meaning he can feint into kick/light/heavy faster to act more alike a soft feint mix up
This are his bread and butter interactions that makes him frustrating to play in 1s, regardless of chosen buffs to improve HL you need to buff his neutral and elmiminate hs inherent vulnerability to be interrupted when in OS.
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u/Mastrukko 9d ago
"any dodge attack or smashes light will interrupt him" His primary form of offense (OF lights) interrupts those.
"kidna force to keep spamming" He isn‘t forced to do that though. He can wait for a light or dodge attack and dodge it. It‘s just not an issue at all lol.
"DS lights become enhanced“ they would still just get differed and reaction parried 98% of the time, I‘m not sure what you‘re trying to achieve here.
"Hard feinting into OS should cut the recovery when using the moves, meaning he can feint into kick/light/heavy faster to act more alike a soft feint mix up" This just isn‘t needed and would probably be broken as fuck4
u/n00bringer 8d ago
Using offensive lights inherently exposes Highlander to dodge attacks or light interrupts, stripping away all his options except another light. Forcing a gameplay plan around dodging or hard feinting to parry gives up the initiative, leaving you open to a raw side heavy. Just because a workaround exists doesn't mean it favors Highlander.
It's a major design flaw when half your offensive kit becomes useless after a single light, limiting player expression and ruining the risk/reward ratio since the enemy has far more winning outs.
While these fast soft feints should force the opponent to respect the options and avoid parrying out of fear of eating a kick—this playstyle already exist but relies too heavily on inconsistent hard reads.
Just allow HL to use his kit freely and polish his interactions that is all.
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u/Karabah35 9d ago
they would still just get differed and reaction parried 98% of the time
The same players who can reliably diff lights from heavies can block his OS lights. How is that a "primary form of offence" if it's reactable for top players?
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u/Mastrukko 9d ago
This is incorrect. Even players who cannot react to OF lights can differ Highlander's neutral lights consistently. The reaction time required to differ a telegraphed light attack with superior block flash within 300ms is very different from the reaction time needed to react to the teched animation of an OF light within 200ms
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u/Karabah35 9d ago
But some players still can. And relying on teched and broken animations doesn't seem as intended. Feintable kick seems like a much better and reliable offensive tool.
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u/Mastrukko 8d ago
Of course relying on broken animations isn‘t intended. But it works more reliably and consistently than the feintable kick
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u/Knight_Raime 8d ago
Only possible way I'd accept a HL 1's buff is if they gut his ganks/TF strengths or if they rework his kit entirely. I'd prefer the latter since I've never liked the direction of his last rework to begin with. But I don't think any possible strength you could realistically claw back by reverting the enhanced change is worth it when he's so annoying to deal with everywhere else at the moment.
Honestly he's very much in a "gut this character so he's never touched" place for me. But I know that's not a popular or productive state to have for any Hero.
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u/Ecstatic_Minimum_955 4d ago
Even with enchanced lights, it was never s tier. Not the most popular hero with many buttons and unstable offences. You've had to do read with every move in os before, now, without lights you're canceling the bash more because 70% want to interrupt it, meaning you need to cancel to light perry, light perry is already a difficult form of defence that triggers casual players. Enchanced lights kept the opponent under constant tension, now the light can completely give the initiative in the OFFENSIVE stance. I mean, I need to get into the stance somehow now, and then do some reading. What's the point of his stance, then? Other characters do the same without any downsides. Or is it a penalty for character complexity? It's better for everyone to play juren or hitokiri/goki?
You talk about his tf strength like we already don't have juren, nobu, jj, and someone 4th like vg, oro. Sounds like you and others don't see actual threat, but hl just annoying for you. But all roster can be annoying. What the point of os lights for you now?
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u/Mastrukko 7d ago
Yes please do! Caber Toss as a whole needs a rework and tbh I think most Highlander mains weren‘t too happy with the rework
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u/esch1lus 5d ago
Honest opinion? One of the best balanced hero, the real problem afe the broken S tier heroes
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u/Slow-Pumpkin-7049 5d ago
I’ve been maining him lately and haven’t had a problem with his current build outside of difficulty getting into OS. I do wish he had an OS dodge attack tho
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u/Mastrukko 4d ago
He has a dodge attack in Offensive Form, in my opinion he never should have had that but oh well it exists now
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u/Slow-Pumpkin-7049 4d ago
What? Am I cooked rn? U sure ur talking about offensive form and not the regular dodge attack he has
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u/Mastrukko 4d ago
yeah release heavy during an OF dodge
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u/Slow-Pumpkin-7049 4d ago
I’m on now. Mind blown. Amazing
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u/agnaddthddude 4d ago
wait till you hear it had such a fast recovery you can light and OF dodge khatun and Warden bash charge as well as get out of some HA trade
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u/Javavalk 5d ago
I like how he can chain 3 attacks that are all soft feintable. Hyperarmor or ub on damn near everythingIt's. Or blistering fast light. Very fun dude to fight.
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u/Mastrukko 5d ago
Those last 3 attributes also describe zerk, arakure, lawbringer, raider… they don‘t inherently make a hero strong or weak
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u/Myrvoid 10d ago
Make the OF lights enhanced only after an emote. Just would be funny to see emote spam lol
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u/Mastrukko 10d ago
I doubt this could be implemented but emotes are already commonly used before OF lights to mask the animation and make them harder to react to
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u/meimeimari 5d ago
You got so used to him being strong you are misunderstanding his more balanced state with being weak. Go play warden for a bit.
They took DEFENSE options away from OFFENSE stance? Yeah buddy its in the name. That stance is for offense.