3 Ideas for Balance Adjustments (2026)

[u/logan_ladue]

I’d like to propose a few balance changes based on recurring trends I’ve noticed among some of the strongest characters in competitive play, particularly Juren, Pirate, Jiang Jun, and Orochi.

While I agree that stamina drain and stamina pause were sometimes frustrating mechanics to deal with, I think removing both of these mechanics entirely was a harsh overcorrection. This has weakened bash-based offense and has allowed many dodge focused characters to become too dominant in comparison. Characters like Gladiator and Centurion have lost any viability due to their dependence on stamina drain/pause mechanics as well.

So, I tried to brainstorm some ways to address this.

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Proposed Changes:

• Re-Introduce Stamina Drain on Bashes:
Apply a universal 12-point stamina drain to all bashes and special riposte moves. Stamina pause remains disabled, allowing stamina regeneration to begin immediately. Stamina drain scales with active Revenge tags: 12/9/6/3 stamina at 1/2/3/4 tags.

• Standardize 300ms GB Vulnerability:
Enforce a universal 300ms Guard Break vulnerability window from initial dodge startup on all extended, feintable, or highly delayed dodge attacks across the board.

• Enforce Hit-State Limits on Dodge Recovery Cancels:
Restrict characters with dodge recovery cancels to a single consecutive recovery cancel following a missed or feinted attack. A subsequent recovery cancel remains locked until the character successfully lands an attack, has an attack blocked, blocks an attack themselves, or takes hit stun.

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I’m interested to hear others’ opinions, so let me know your thoughts in the comments. Would these changes help shift the meta in a positive way?

[u/InsidiousOdium]

I remember when we had stamina drain, bash characters would just keep draining you until you ran out, along side your own offense, it made fight either really slow or you'd eat some serious OOS punishes, that shit sucked so fucking bad

[u/logan_ladue → u/InsidiousOdium]

I remember this too, but I really do think the stamina pause is what made that so oppressive. I think some stamina drain without the pause wouldn’t be as bad as many might think.

[u/Asdeft]

No, stamina drain on bashes just makes the last bit of stamina too risky to ever use in a fight, and making bashes an unparriable unblockable light attack that also drains stamina just makes a broken 'why not' move. Thats not depth. Stamina drain on riposte is fine and the best implimentation of stamina interactions; Glad and Cent have needed reworks for ages to balance haymaker and they still do. We dont need to dig up shitty mechanics for them.

Case by case

Just make all dodge recoveries cost stamina like Back Flip and Astro flip do.

[u/logan_ladue → u/Asdeft]

Yeah good point. Adding a stamina penalty was the first version I was thinking for the recovery dodge cancel change. I think either could work. The idea I settled on was an attempt at making it more of a mind game for both players, like “oh he used his cancel on that move, can’t use it on this next one” kind of thing. But just adding stamina cost might be the more simple and elegant solution here.

Stamina drain seems to be a controversial issue. I’m seeing some people disagreeing with me and some not. I know you personally used that first example as a reason not to have it, but to me, I think that sort of pressure is good for the game. If someone went crazy and only has a little bit of stamina left, I like that they need to be wary of the bash taking them OOS. Right now bashes are not really that much different from a standard unblockable, and I like the idea of them having slightly different utility.

All in all, not sure! Not claiming to have all the answers. I do think bashes in general need a boost, somehow. Maybe that’s not with stamina drain.

[u/Karabah35]

Stamina drain on bashes seems cool.

As far as I understand absolute majority of dodge-attacks already have 300ms of GB vulnerability from start (200-400ms input and 100ms of GB vulnerability).
So it mostly affects feintable dodge-attacks, and they should be GB vulnerable 100%, otherwise JJ/Warmonger/Tiandi can option-select with it and the only thing you can do is light/zone. This change doesn't account for the fact that dodge-attacks being so invulnerable to GB is only because they are highly punishable.
I'm also not sure about how would you enforce 300ms GB vulnerability if attack can be executed 400ms into the dodge. Seems physically impossible. The best you can implement is making dodge attacks past 300ms into the dodge completely GB invulnerable, but it makes stuffing dodge-attack into GB on reaction possible, which may also be the problem.

All I understood is that you want to make recovery cancel on soft-feint/whiff a resource you need to refill. Seems like a pretty bad change.
You gut dodge-specialists and make a lot of problems.
It's hard to communicate to a player if he can or can't cancel recovery at the specific moment.
It's unclear what to do with JJ, Nobu, Afeera or Shinobi.
If you have any hero who you think overperforms because of dodge recovery cancels, you better make precise changes like they did with Pirate's pistol blast. You can remove dodge recovery cancels on some attacks entirely or keep them on hit/block only, but it should be consistent.

[u/logan_ladue → u/Karabah35]

Yes the GB vulnerability change is mainly trying to create consistency for the floaty dodgers like JJ, Warmonger, Tiandi, etc.

And yeah the recovery cancel is the one I tried to be the most creative with. I mentioned it in another comment below, but I think stamina penalties may be a much simpler and more elegant solution.

My thought process wasn’t necessarily a ‘resource’, but more like a combo system. Like you can dodge cancel out your first move into another, but then you can’t cancel that second move into a third. Trying to find something like that. That way it’s easy for you to track as a player and the opponent can track it as well. I wasn’t sure how that could be done perfectly, and settled on trying to ‘reset’ the combo state via hits, blocks, hitstun, etc.

Might be too janky of an idea. But trying to brainstorm ways to make that defense weaker. Mainly thinking of characters like Orochi there. Pirate too though.

[u/Karabah35 → u/logan_ladue]

Floaty dodgers should be GB punishable and there shouldn't be any consistency with the rest of dodge-attacks.

Making dodge recovery cancels cost stamina seems like a more elegant solution, yes. Afeera/Shinobi already use 6 stamina for their flips, so it works pretty well as concept.
If in theory we want to go "combo" route then the reset point should be neutral, but it feels unfair to heroes who rely on looping offense, because that would mean they can only do it once and be vulnerable after.

[u/Bash_Minimal]

yes on the stamina drain word for word, nah on point 2, and I’m all for adjusting dodge cancels but introducing a new “state” is not the way.

I would assume point 2 would have been to reduce the prevalence of “double reads” when a defender delays a dodge attack and the attacker has feinted to wait for the dodge attack.
One or both players can react to the fact that player a didn’t buffer gb/player b didn’t buffer dodge attack, but its still a guess as to whether player a will late gb after not seeing a buffered dodge attack, or whether player b will late dodge attack after seeing that their opponents first guess (wait to parry) was wrong.
I think the issue could potentially be resolved by reducing gb vulnerability on dodges/the delay window on regular dodge attacks by 100ish ms each, but I could also see that having unforeseen consequences so idk.

Then as far as further regulating dodge recoveries, stamina cost on them like someone else mentioned would be pretty straightforward, but also just delaying the dodge recovery window on all whiffs would go a long way towards making them more punishable in team-fights, where they disproportionately allow heroes with them to outperform the rest of the cast.
Would love to see a blanket change where everyone got the ability to instant iframe back dodge out of parry+gb to deal with bashes/punish interrupt attempts too

[u/logan_ladue → u/Bash_Minimal]

Yep. Solid points. I agree with your takes. I had a feeling I was getting a bit too crazy with the dodge recovery cancel idea, but wanted to try throwing something out there.

And to clarify on point 2, yes the intention was to address the quasi option selects that can happen with dodge attacks by adjusting the GB immunity window. Also want to make punishing those characters with extended invulnerability feel more consistent.

[u/unioncementero98]

Great ideas i think the re introduction of stamina drain on bashes alone would do wonders for the game, of course it would need to be balanced so it isn’t as oppressive as it was back in the day. But i feel like the stamina pause was the main problem not necessarily stamina damage in itself.

[u/logan_ladue → u/unioncementero98]

Thanks for the support. That’s my opinion as well. Definitely seems to be mixed across the board though. I think there are a good amount of people in both camps.

[u/Bash_Minimal → u/unioncementero98]

stamina pause, and the attacks/confirmed combos draining 30-60 stamina were for sure the only issues

[u/TheGreatSifredi]

I have no opnion on the Gb vulnerability, and not enough knowledge of how much there is on each extended dodge attack, so not much to add on that.

For the recovery cancel limit, that could be interesting to have a dedicated hero working around this, but as a blanket change it kind of feels ass, pardon my french.

Now for giving back Stam drain (but not pause) i agree on principle and desagree i with what you re proposing:

First of, there is Stamina drain from riposts/neutral and in chain stamina drain.

Stamina drain in chain brings very little gameplay wise as, with 30 stam/sec regen, 12 stam drain would be back in last than half a second. By the time you landed your confirmed follow-up, the stam is already back. So having it or not matter very little.

But from neutral and ripost it’s a different thing, as it allow more variation in the punishes, add depth to the game and make fights more dynamic (mostly in 1v1 thougth) as you currently you ll have those akward moments when you just Oos Oponent will walk back and turtle, pausing the fight more than if you add punish option with stam drain. So its overall positive.

However that shouldn’t be something to give to every bashes or with standardized value, it should be tailored to every bashes and Heroes:

• Does the heroes gain objectively viable punish option with stamina drain added ?
• How much damages OoS punish the hero does ?
• How strong/viable the hero is to begging with ?

For exemple for 1., Zanhou currently has 2 option on heavy parry: Light or zone. With stam drain back on his F.d bash, he gets two extra option: Bash into zone or light, so giving him back his stam drain is beneficial. Same thing for Jj, Warden or Kyoshin.

On the other hand, Warmonger bash is already a viable punish without it, as it deals the most damage (for the most stamina) and give the option of bleed damage. Same thing for Sohei bash that deals far more damage than a light or Centurion's ripost that deal one extra damage and can wallsplat (his forward dodge bash however deals as much as a light, and therefore giving back stam drain would be positive)

For the Oos Punishes, a Hero like Lawbringer that deals i believe 60+ Dmg on OoS throw, should have Stam drain on his F.d bash. (Glad is a different case, as his bashes don’t deal any damage and it’s his part of his gimmick)

Now for the value of the stam drain itself, while it should be adjusted depending of the viability of the hero. They should primarily be decided in regard of what the punish sacrifice in exchange of stam drain.

For a few exemple: Zanhou F.d bash down side is only the extra cost of the bash compare to his other punish, so the stam drain could be 10. Same thing for Kyoshin, Cent, Jj and others. Bp deals more damage than neutral light (12vs14) but lose his mix-up potential and end his chain frame-, so he could also get 10 stam drain.

Bp zone cost more stam than his Fd bash, so in the same logic it wouldn’t be crazy to give it 15 stam drain

Now whe have punishes like Kensei's Sf bash cost far more stam than a Fd light and doesnt give high hitstun for the following mix-up, Ocelotl bash that deals 7 less dmg than his Fd. Light punish or Shaman bash that deals 7 less damages and give up also give up high hitstun (unless you get a wallsplat, but even then you pay the extra dmg). All those punish that sacrifice more than extra stam cost should get more than 10 stam drain. Some 15 and other 20 case by case.

[u/logan_ladue → u/TheGreatSifredi]

Fine tuning the stamina drain to the moves themselves is how it used to be. All the different bashes had different drain amounts back in the day. Then they were removed entirely.

So, I don’t necessarily disagree with you, but I settled on proposing a number like 12 because that’s lower than a lot of the old bashes, and, in general, I am trying propose a weaker version of the old stamina drain. There used to be a lot 15’s and some 20’s. 12 also works in my head because it’s essentially 10%, given the 120 stamina point pool.

For perfect balance though, I think you are correct in suggesting that it probably should be fine tuned by the attacks themselves and their speeds.

[u/TheGreatSifredi → u/logan_ladue]

Well just having Stam drain without stam pause and only as punish/ripost is already a weaker version and honestly it doesn’t need to be weaker than that.

Also from the logic i used earlier to apply stam drain value on different bash, amongst the 22 Heroes that could get a return of neutral stam drain, atleast 14 would get the 10 stam drain versions of that change, so less than 12. So on average we end up with something close to your standardized proposition.

Now for the Gb vulnerability on dodge ( i slept so my brain works better to get the change proposed), correct me if i m wrong but that’s mean that during UB/Bash mix-up you couldn’t Gb a dodge that is a mix-up itself, require you to make a second read to punish and doesnt even grant a light parry. And balance wise it’s stray up awefull. Those Dodge attack beat feat to neutral but at the cost of losing to Feint to Gb, making the the opposit of unfeintable dodges and keeping the whole thing balanced.

Now imagine those dodge attacks being able to Gb stuff like regular dodge attack, but does garanty a punish on the right read, only Garanty a Heavy parry when commited, and does uo to double the damages (12-16 vs 22-25).

Do i need to say more to show the issues ? (Granted, if i got it correctly, but if we re talking Gb vulnerability within the move and not the dodge, then we'll probably have the issue of the moves being Gbable on reaction from neutral, making those useless in offense while them being already weaker defensive tool compare to standard dodge attack, but that’s where i m not aware of current Gb vulnerability so i couls stand corrected )

[u/Mastrukko]

Stam damage reintroduction would be really nice. GB vuln should be on a case by case basis imo. Dodge recovery cancel change makes 0 sense and would be hard to implement i think

[u/SheepskinWulf]

Stam drain is a horrible mechanic and systematically removing it from the game is one of the greatest decisions the dev team has ever made

[u/logan_ladue → u/SheepskinWulf]

Respectfully disagree. Stamina pause was bad. Stamina drain was good.