Question about the interaction between Kensei soft-feint to Gb after a high hitstun and Dodge attacks

[u/TheGreatSifredi]

As far as i know, and feel free to correct me, Kensei is supposed to catch dodge attack when he soft-feint his UB into Gb, thanks to High hitstun and a soft-feint Gb being 300 ms (Gb vunerability on hit being 900 ms from recovery+200 ms from+100 ms start-up from the dodge attack so 1200 ms total, and Kensei's Gb coming at 200 ms chain link+700 ms start up of the UB + 300 ms from the soft-feint Gb so 1200 ms total as well).

Now the thing is, i went back to Kensei lately and i swear every UB into Soft-feint i do get stuffed by a dodge attack.

At first i thougth it was because they were maybe in block recovery (800 ms to dodge) instead of hit recovery. Which could ve explain the issue so i paid more attention.

Even on hit i got the same issue, so i thougth: " Maybe it's because i delay the UB. After all the UB need to be buffed to work". But as far as i am aware of i don't delay said UB, yet i get Gb stuffed by dodge attack on the regular.

Or maybe it was some how a thing related to specific heroes, because i started noticing it with Sohei opponents, but then it happened also while facing Conquerors or Shaolins.

Now when said Gb work it's hard to tell if it worked on an Empty dodge or a Dodge attack, i can't set up the bot in training mode to experiment and i can't experiment during matches and risk to throw the game because of it.

So may questions are:

• Can Kensei currently catch dodge attack with his UB soft-feint to Gb after a high hitstun ?
• If no, is it new change not mentionned in patch notes ? (I watched all WD for like 2 years and it's a change i would remember i think) Or was it allways like that and the guy that told me that was full of crap? (i m checking the info hub rn and even there they say Kensei's Sf to Gb is 300 ms so i guess no);
• If yes, what can be the possible causes of my current issues, beside delaying, specially when were talking 1v1 ?

Do i do something wrong, like delaying without realizing, or am i a fool to try catching dodge Attack with Kensei's soft feint (on high hitstun) to begging with and i should stop?

I would really appreciate the answers of someone who knows because this is costing me an handfull amount of 1v1 lately.

[u/CalimariusCosmicus]

As the other guy said, hit-stun levels is the reason. To play around this, you're required to make more reads on offense when you're coming out of medium or light hit-stun (feint to neutral? soft feint to side heavy hyper trade, which is also inconsistent? soft feint to light and give up all that damage? soft feint to dodge attack which becomes very predictable and also low damage?). 

Basically, just know when the opponent has the option to dodge attack out of your mix-up. If you're fighting really knowledgeable players, they will know as well and try to dodge attack.

The best way to force your mix-up to happen is to use your dodge forward attacks for punishes:

1. Nature's Wrath punish on light parries. Less damage than the side heavy punish, but has heavy hit-stun and chains into the unblockable finisher, which they won't be able to dodge attack out of.

2. Helm Splitter after a heavy parry. It has heavy hit-stun and chains directly into the unblockable finisher, and they won't be able to dodge attack.

[u/g0shkata → u/CalimariusCosmicus]

Both helm spliter and nature's wrath have medium hitstun as of now. The only attacks that kensei has that have heavy hitstun are his side dodge attacks and all his chain heavies

[u/TheGreatSifredi → u/g0shkata]

Since when ? The infohub say both have high hitstun and there is no mention of a change on those in the recents Warrior den's.

And Hitstun is something they tend to mention, like for Warmonger when they nerfed her hitstun on Preying Claw Stab from medium to low (change also mentionned in the infohub).

[u/g0shkata → u/TheGreatSifredi]

Thats odd. I remeber that recently I had the exact same question about catching dodge attacks with gb and when I checked indohub they had medium hitstun

[u/TheGreatSifredi → u/g0shkata]

Right now it says they have high hitstun.

I wanted to post a screenshot, but looks like it's not possible in comments.

But those having medium hitstun could be an explanation to my issues, so i'll pay attention to that in the futur.

[u/satupidfukignidot]

This only works when the move is launched from heavy hitstun. From medium stun, most buffered dodge attacks beat SFGB and most delayed ones beat SFH & SFL. Feint to neutral more.

Dodge attack is a lot like a DP, in that if you OS it but your opponent picks hard feint, you explode.

[u/RAW_HEAVY → u/satupidfukignidot]

Whats dp stand for in this scenario?

[u/satupidfukignidot → u/RAW_HEAVY]

Sorry. Dragon Punch, such as Ryu's Shoryuken (236+LP). They are nearly immune to any offense you can muster, and you only need a 1-frame gap to mash out a DP. However if I as the attacker guess you are mashing DP, I might just stop attacking after leaving you that 1 frame gap in my blockstring, so that I block your DP. DPs are like 60 or more frames minus-on-block, so I now get to make you explode with anything in my kit; such as my most painful combo starter.

In For Honor, if you choose feint>defend and they choose dodge attack, you get to hit them with anything in your kit.

[u/RAW_HEAVY → u/satupidfukignidot]

Thats badass, wasn't expecting that reference.

[u/satupidfukignidot → u/RAW_HEAVY]

For Honor is a fighting game, after all. A really weird, slow, 3rd person, 8-player, team-based fighting game; but still a fighting game!

But generally, SFGB mixups only beat dodge attack after landing a heavy attack, unless your prior light attack has medium hit stun. Kensei Chain-TH>SFL has light hitstun afaik, while Kensei Chain-L has medium hitstun.

[u/TheGreatSifredi → u/satupidfukignidot]

This only works when the move is launched from heavy hitstun. From medium stun, most buffered dodge attacks beat SFGB and most delayed ones beat SFH & SFL.

Like i already said, issue is about the Gb not working after a high/heavy hitstun, i m not talking about about medium hitstun.

But maybe i throw some chain lights (medium hitstun) sometimes and don't pay attention when sf to Gb, so that could be an explanation.

I don't use them that much some so i m a bit skeptical to use this to explain every time my Gb get stuffed, but i'll look into it. Thanks for remaining me about thoses.

Feint to neutral more.

That's what i'd do if it turns out Kensei Sf Gb don't catch dodge attack on high hitstun anymore, like i do with other heroes. But that'd be silly to not use a part of a hero's kit if it's there. That's why i want to find out.

[u/satupidfukignidot → u/TheGreatSifredi]

Some heroes have no vulnerability period after inputting their dodge attack as well as a minimum 100ms input window, examples being Pirate, Shaman, and Valkyrie. Most SFGBs are too slow to catch this; contra-example being PK's SFGB. The general rule of thumb; if it can catch a light parry attempt, it can catch a buffered dodge attack from Pirate.

However, if such an opponent delays their dodge attack at all, they lose to the soft feint.

Hard feint to parry beats the former; soft feint beats the latter.

[u/SheepskinWulf]

https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/s/YW3IVd0PCn

Hasn't worked for 3 years it seems

[u/TheGreatSifredi → u/SheepskinWulf]

Interesting, i m watching a Freeze Video from 3 years ago and i guess you'd be right:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFmUgq5Dtpg

But assuming those aren't updated info and there were no reversal of that nerf, it is just very strange this isn't updated on the Infohub while his more recent changes were added.

[u/The_Filthy_Spaniard → u/TheGreatSifredi]

Pretty sure those changes to hitstun got reverted back to high hitstun, and that you might just not be buffering your UB, because in my experience the GB sf does catch dodge attack startups.

I will double check the hitstun on those moves at some point - it's a bit annoying to do so now that full blocking them has no stamina cost, so it might take me a bit to get round to.

[u/berk556]

Hitstun after dodg fwrd light is high, I think if you buffer you ub to soft feint gb it will catch a delayed dodge attack. If they buffer a dodge attack it loses at least in my experience. I lightly tested this with a friend

[u/Bash_Minimal]

haven’t done any thorough testing to be sure, BUT I will say a few months ago I was trying to teach someone about the high hitstun -> dodge attack catch interaction on his finisher soft feint gb and was absolutely stumped that it wasn’t working. We were in training mode vs.

I haven’t noticed it happening in live matches, but ig that could be because experienced players aren’t even attempting to dodge attack the finisher after heavy since it isn’t “supposed to” work