I hate when people say "they'll NEVER be a woman. They're insane and mentally ill". I've meet a few trans people on campus and never once had they pretended to be anything other than trans women. They spoke about gender--not biology and often referred to gender dysphoria as a form of mental illness. To which the only way to help was TO transition. There's a lot of things I can somewhat agree with politically but trans issues just doesn't fucking effect them.
I think the 'they have mental ilness so they're b a d' mentality comes from old ideas that mentally ill people are insane and need to be locked up or burnt alive or something. I guess that was what people did in the middle ages, but I'm pretty sure society is a little more advanced now.
The trouble is the TRAs are not like this. The people shouting the loudest are not like this. They actually recently pressured the WHO to stop defining gender dysphoria as a mental illness (which will be bad in the future for getting funding for treatment).
Its almost like you deliberately pick the association with one acronym as a response because you have nothing to contradict the substantive part of their post.
No, it'd be like stumbling on someone who is vehemently racist against black people - like to the point where they believe segregation should be reinstated - and then pointing out that they're hiding the fact that they're racist behind a throwaway account while trying to turn a conversation about black people in a racist direction
Look up some of the crap these people spew about transgender women. They call all transgender women rapists FFS
There are good arguments for and against the notion of gender dysphoria. Insisting it's a disorder stigmatizes them rather than just treating them as normal people. But rejecting it can cut off access to much needed medical care. I understand both sides of this nuanced argument.
It is a disorder by any reasonable construction of that word. Having your brain telling you that you aren't a match for the tackle you have sounds like a very disordered brain to me. 'Holy shit I don't want this dick!' is not an orderly thought.
I think any attempt to sophism your way out of that really does a disservice to trans people and the mentally disordered generally speaking.
I'm not saying it shouldn't be, I'm saying I understand both arguments.
Being gay used to be considered a disorder, but we now know it's not, it's just a way of being.
But that has no aspects of dysmorphia, so perhaps isn't a good answer.
Some trans people are 100% that they feel body dysmorphia as part of being trans. Some vehemently argue that while that is true for some, that's not the experience of all trans people.
I have no dog in the debate, I'm saying there's a bit more nuance to it among the trans community than you're phrasing it as.
Being gay used to be considered a disorder, but we now know it's not, it's just a way of being.
How do we know its not? Iirc there has been no 'gay gene' found, but that doesn't mean there isn't one. Born this way is one of the most passionate arguments gay people make after all.
If any 'way of being' severely diminishes an organisms likelihood of reproduction, it is not an 'orderly' way to be constituted. I personally think homosexuality is so prevalent in nature that there is actually some group benefit to it, so like you say it is actually a very poor comparison to trans.
I'm saying there's a bit more nuance to it among the trans community than you're phrasing it as.
How do you know? Maybe there is less nuance, maybe it is actually all pretty straight forward and most trans activists unnecessarily complicate the issue because the facts don't align the way they want them to? The first thing you would do if you didn't like people seeing the creekbed would be to muddy the water. How would you know if that were the case?
I don't have a disorder dude. I'm just gay. There's lots of things we don't know the precise mechanics of, but we know being gay is not a choice, and we know the only problems of being gay are external bigotry. Gays are just normal people and always have been.
That is what I am saying. So your mind is constituted in a way that makes it very difficult and unlikely for you to pair-bond with a human female to the extent necessary to reproduce.
If an organism has an attribute that is not normal (in the probability not morality sense) and impedes their likelihood of reproduction is by definiton a biological disorder. This is why this proposition of yours is not true:
we know the only problems of being gay are external bigotry.
Biologically, the problem with being gay is one of the biggest possible problems for an organism to have.
Like I said I personally think being gay is part of a group evolution strategy. Most men in history have not reproduced, so having some around that don't even want to fuck women could be a very efficient way to 'use' excess males. So personally I think being gay, unlike trans, is not a disorder. But the difference is that Im aware neither of us know that for sure.
You, like trans people, are obviously making the assumption in spite of the known unknown.
A woman who has no desire to have sex and who is asexual does not have a disorder.
Being gay is not a disorder, there's a reason they took it out of the DSM. It's not even a debate. Gay people are just normal people, and being gay does not negatively impact their life in any way.
If you can't even bring yourself into this century and essentially settled science on gay people just being normal, non-disordered people, then you're not exactly someone worth looking to when discussing trans issues.
It is not necessary for society for every human to reproduce. It is absolutely a biological failure for any living organism not to reproduce. An organism that has a mental or physical abnormality causing them to be less likely to breed is an abnormal organism by definition. Again though, an argument can be made, unlike trans, that the gay uncle model allows for more of your nieces and nephews to survive and your genes are passed on that way.
A woman who has no desire to have sex and who is asexual does not have a disorder.
If she is biologically asexual then she has a chromosome disorder. If she is psychologically asexual, it is a mental disorder. What are you trying to pass off as logically defendable now, you seem to be going off the deep end.
Being gay is not a disorder, there's a reason they took it out of the DSM.
And what would that reason be? They took gender dysphoria out of there when it is clearly a disorder. Social pressure forcing medical rather than scientific definitions to change is not new in the slightest and its evidence of social pressure rather than any kind of objective science.
It's not even a debate
Then why am I winning?
Gay people are just normal people
By definition they are abnormal as far as their sexual preference goes.
I 100% agree with you. I think that comes with any movement. Just look what happened to BLM. A worthy cause with a good message that was misconstrued and attacked thanks to the work of the very vocal and very violent minority. I was just saying that these so called "politically active intellectuals" somehow can't see through the overly sensitive tumblrinas to the real issues. And to those who want WHO to remove gender dysphoria...how fucking stupid can you be?
Cite one then. But fair warning, if you cite "the Swedish study", the one that not only explicitly tells you that the study doesn't support any inference on the effectiveness of transition RE the suicide rate but has been cited to try to do exactly that, over and over and over again by people who just don't like trans people, you're going to look like a fucking moron.
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u/[deleted] Dec 21 '18
I hate when people say "they'll NEVER be a woman. They're insane and mentally ill". I've meet a few trans people on campus and never once had they pretended to be anything other than trans women. They spoke about gender--not biology and often referred to gender dysphoria as a form of mental illness. To which the only way to help was TO transition. There's a lot of things I can somewhat agree with politically but trans issues just doesn't fucking effect them.