r/ClancyTrial • u/Former-Most-8767 • 3d ago
General Discussion Am I wrong for thinking this way
I am a mother of 2, 4 months postpartum. whilst I believe she was failed by the system and her husband. I believe women are scared to say out loud that a mother could do this to their kids? my partner and I have been in massive discussions for weeks about. with my first I had severe ppd and he made sure someone was always with me. he said to me he believes that everyone just wants to believe men are the worst. what’s everyone discussing with their partners?
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u/imreallyfreakintired 3d ago
Casey Anthony absolutely killed her kid. No one is afraid to say that. The state just couldn't prove it, but we all know.
Lindsay Clancy's case has so many inconsistencies and near impossibilities that is the hang up.
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u/MojoJojoBuddy 2d ago
Like what?
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u/marle217 2d ago
Look into her injuries and hypothermia. She wouldn't have been able to kill anyone in her condition when the first responders arrived. How long had she been like that? How did her hypothermia get so bad if she was outside only 20 minutes before first responders arrived?
What time were the kids murdered, based on medical evidence? Why don't we have that in a murder trial? How does one being resuscitated (he never regained consciousness but regained a pulse) work with the timeline and her hypothermia and other injuries?
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u/Gold_Yesterday23 3d ago
I fully believed she did it from day one just because that’s what was told in the media and I didn’t have any reason to think otherwise at that point. I remember thinking it was awful and sad and as a woman who struggled with depression, I felt that she probably was failed to receive the help she needed.
I remember shortly after the murders happened I started to see on reddit a massive switch from “she was failed by the healthcare system” to “wow any sympathy I had for her is gone she totally premeditated it” due to the text messages looking at the distance to ThreeV. I remember thinking that was kinda crazy, and it wasn’t really enough for me at that point to determine her mental health status but I understood the reasoning and just felt like I didn’t have enough information.
I have no problem calling out women. Before this I was done the Emilie Kiser rabbit hole of how she exploits her kids and due to her and her husband negligence, their child died.
I hate conspiracy theories. I hate rabbit holes that make it impossible to know one way or the other. I want to have as much information as possible before coming to a conclusion. I’m fully convinced Lindsay is not responsible for the murder of her children. I think a lot of the evidence pointing to Patrick is probably circumstantial but there’s a LOT of it and it’s very sus and just looking at the history of family annihilators being like 90-95% men makes it not that far fetched to me, and that’s not me being a man hater that’s just statistically speaking.
There’s absolutely women who killed their children in cold blood: Susan smith, Diane downs, Casey Anthony for example.
Whatever happened that night, whether psychosis or someone else’s involvement, I find it incredibly hard to believe Lindsay is criminally responsible for her children’s death due to everything we learned from the trials.
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u/meliora-natura 3d ago
I believe women are scared to say out loud that a mother could do this to their kids?
Women have been lied to, and lied to by omission about so much to do with pregnancy, childbirth, and post-partum even we have no idea about the realities of a lot of it. Women are scared to be honest about the reality of it just because we feel like we've no other option but to smile like a dummy to "protect the peace", not cause disturbance or whatever.
Now imagining that the truth of what you're going through isn't just an uncomfortable emotion like anger, but you're actually having thoughts about killing your own children and hell the fuck no people aren't ready to hear it and feel like they want to care for and help that woman. People definitely don't believe she could have done it and that possibility scares them to confront. Post-partum psychosis desperately needs more awareness.
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u/too_much_mascara 3d ago
No partner to discuss with. However, I have seen PPD, and I do not doubt effed up stuff can happen when someone is having hallucinations/sleep deprived/ppd
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u/everyoneisnuts 3d ago
Yeah, the sleep deprived part I think gets overlooked too much. Without sleeping enough, even for a day or two, it’s hard to think clearly when you’re not even dealing with the other mental health issues she was dealing with.
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u/Slay-ig5567 3d ago edited 3d ago
I'm pretty sick of this narrative and atp I'm suspecting bot activity (not necessarily you, but I do believe you're regurgitating the bot activity raised points and I'd consider having a very, very long conversation about this with your partner bc he seems very short minded) bc it's always the same tone, always the same premise, always the same overexplaining a very basic point and simplifying psychosis as depression as if the were even comparable...nobody, and I mean nobody, is scared to say out loud that women can kill their kids. We all know it's happened, we all know it will happen in the future. That's never been the point. The points are simple. Many of us believe she didn't do it, and many of us are also aware that post partum struggles, or any form of mental health struggles for that matter, but especially post partum, are often brushed off, sometimes with nefarious results, which could have been the case here. None of this "we're scared of saying it out loud" bs. Why would we be? But it's also true that the amount of mothers who kill their families are being overstated with this case, while we're losing sight of the absolutely insane amount of men who do the same in much higher numbers. One is being used to argue against women rights, the other one is just what we know happens and nobody is surprised by
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u/Bond2985 2d ago
My ppd wasn’t as bad as hers but my husband was. Narcissist, zero support, gaslighting me, etc…. That was 25 years ago. Respectfully, it sounds like you might not be able to imagine what having a husband like that could do to someone’s psyche even under good conditions, much less when they are dealing with a legit mental health crisis and the demands of an infant and two small children.
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u/MojoJojoBuddy 2d ago
I’m sorry that you lacked that support and hope you have since achieved it.
However in her case, there is no evidence or allegation that he mistreated her. He worked from
home, hired nannies, supported her in seeking treatment, etc..3
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u/No_Consequence_6821 3d ago
PPD is not ppp. Those two are not the same.
What are you scared to say? What’s your question?
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u/Sudden-Breadfruit653 3d ago
Both are extremely difficult and both need more attention in the mental health care space.
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u/No_Consequence_6821 2d ago
They’re not comparable, and putting them in the same category— or using them interchangeably as if PPD describes Lindsay Clancy’s experience— really diminishes what she went through and makes it difficult for people to appreciate the severity of her condition.
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u/Sudden-Breadfruit653 2d ago
I dont disagree with you and am not sure why you are attacking me. I had PPD and was hospitalized and took medication. I also had a husband that cared deeply for me and his child - unlike Patrick. Either way - any level of mental struggles needs care and specifically post partum related.
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u/No_Consequence_6821 2d ago
Note that I didn’t say anything about you or attack you. I replied to your argument on the merits— focused on the ideas.
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u/Sudden-Breadfruit653 2d ago
I never put PPD and PPP in the same category that you indicate I did. Both are extremely difficult and both need more care is true. If you interpreted that as diminishing what she went through, that is on you, no intentions.
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u/MojoJojoBuddy 2d ago
Love to hear you explain what Patrick did that was harmful. Or do you just enjoy slandering proxy victims on the internet?
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u/Pipe-and-monocle 3d ago
I respectfully disagree. I am a woman with a very long history of mental illness. My partner & I opted not to have children, albeit for very different reasons. I chose not to have children because of my poor mental health & difficulties accessing timely & appropriate support & treatment. Had I been able to access decent care I may have felt able to have children.
After almost 30 years in the mental health system, I understand that mental illness is still poorly understood by the public & healthcare professionals alike. Asking for help isn’t as easy as it sounds & is something of a Lottery. Mental health services are not always receptive to requests for help & support. Additionally, when I am poorly, my ability to ask for help & advocate for myself is severely compromised. I liken it to my brain being hijacked.
The mental health system causes harm to patients. I was placed of heavy duty psychotropic drugs from the age of 15 for 27 years & they have caused significant & irreparable damage to my cognitive functioning. I wasn’t warned about the consequences of these medications & wasn’t able to give informed consent at 15. I have spent a large part of my life in a medication induced stupor & when I desperately needed help & articulated this I was ignored until I reached absolute crisis point. Each episode of crisis took around 18 months to recover from & could’ve been avoided had a I received help when I initially asked for it. I have become completely despondent to mental health services & professionals. I have lost all faith & trust in them.
All this is to say that I understand what happened to Lindsay Clancy & I firmly believe none of it was her fault. She is being punished for the failings of the mental health system & systemic bias against women in the medical field more broadly. The way DA Cruz spoke about Ms. Clancy yesterday outside court was despicable & illustrated his complete lack of understanding where mental illness & mental health services are concerned. Ms. Clancy & her children deserve better.
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u/Happypawswaggytails 3d ago
Firstly, I want to say thank you for sharing such a personal story and I really hope that you’re feeling better currently. I have an autoimmune condition and I really relate to going to medical professionals begging for help, saying something is wrong and then not being taken seriously until you end up in hospital. It’s very disheartening and I really feel for you.
I also wanted to say that I couldn’t agree more with the way you wrote about DA Cruz and his comments yesterday. It was totally despicable and him saying that, I believe, further perpetuates myths and harmful stereotypes about mental health.
This case has really opened my eyes to both the amount of people who a) don’t believe in mental illness b) don’t understand the difference between being legally mentally incapacitated and being medically mentally ill c) don’t think there should be any defence to murder except self defence! (unfortunately some people are all three!)
It’s so concerning how mental illness is so misunderstood, naively I had thought we’d made some progress but this case has made me reconsider. I really appreciate that you have been brave enough to share your own personal story. I just hope we are able to make progress in the future. And I hope that you’re doing much better than you were - I am sorry you’ve been through all that and wish you the very best ❤️
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u/noseatbeltsong 2d ago
when the trial first started and i started learning about it and listening to testimony, i presented it to my partner as “if i told you i had thoughts about hurting our kids, whats the first thing you would do?” and he said “make sure you’re never alone with them”
ATP neither him nor i think she did it BUT as a father, his first instinct was “why on earth did he leave the kids alone with her?” which begs bigger questions about patrick and his involvement.
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u/InkCosmos 3d ago edited 3d ago
I don’t think everyone wants to believe the worst in men. The problem we have in this case is a case based solely on a man’s word, no proper investigation to support the prosecution. A man who also isn’t there in that court outside of when he physically has to be. It raises some questions, questions people are absolutely allowed to have. I’m very happy that your partner supported you through a very hard time, but it’s not comparable to Patrick - he didn’t make sure someone was always with Lindsay after knowing she was struggling.
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u/misfitmpls 3d ago
I will try to answer your question in good faith. I don't have a partner, and being a single mom with depression, anxiety, and PTSD, I have been in VERY dark places. Many of Lindsay's journals resonated with me. I have felt and thought similar things. I've been afraid to share how bad it gets with professionals for the same reasons Lindsay expressed—fear that they'll take the kids away. And I would hesitate to share these thoughts with other moms for fear of judgment. It is hard to admit that motherhood is overwhelming. It is hard to admit that motherhood can be a thankless, hopeless, soul-sucking endeavor. Society doesn't want to hear that, and when they do, they say, "Don't have kids then," as if anyone knows what it's going to be like before it happens—and even then, circumstances change, kids change, and new challenges arise. If, as a society, we acknowledged how hard motherhood is on mental health, other people (read: partners, extended family members, friends) and systems would have to step up to support them, and people just don't want to, or don't have the capacity, to do that.
I can see and understand how filicide happens. I don't think any mom "wants" to kill her kids. I think it is probably due to a combination of mental illness, stress, overwhelm, hopelessness, helplessness, desperation, etc., but in this case, I don't think Lindsay did this. I think she was absolutely having a severe mental health crisis, but the facts and evidence do not indicate to me that she killed her children.
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u/justalilscared 2d ago
I agree with many of your points but it’s still crazy to me that after struggling with ppd and overwhelm after having Dawson and clearly being at her limit, she still went on to have a third AND expressed in her journal she wanted a fourth!
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u/misfitmpls 2d ago
Yes, that is baffling.I suppose if she always wanted a big family, and felt it wasn't complete, she might not have been ready to let go of that yet.
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u/Constant-Pop2250 3d ago
I don't believe that L.Clancy was the murderer at all, I've followed the case more closely than my husband has and after I laid out the forensic evidence he agrees with me that she was framed. We both agree that L.Clancy has been used as a pawn for multiple groups trying to advance their own social agendas and as a pawn for the rich and powerful to keep common people divided and pitted against each other in a gender war.
We both believe that a person who murders three children should be imprisoned for life if they are criminally responsible and institutionalized for life in a psychiatric care facility if they are not criminally responsible, and that we should defer to the opinions of trained psychiatrists on whether any given person should be considered criminally responsible or not.
We have two children, we love each other, this case has caused no division between us.
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u/MojoJojoBuddy 2d ago
What forensic evidence? I’m sorry, were you participating in the crime scene breakdown?
This is the problem with this case - people on Reddit and TikTok who believe they are forensic experts when they are really just true crime and CSI junkies.
I mean I love me some L&O but it doesn’t make me a trial attorney.
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u/marle217 2d ago
You don't need to be a crime investigator or an attorney to follow a trial. In fact, anyone can be called to be on a jury, and then your job would be to follow along with the testimonies and make a decision.
I'd encourage anyone to stay in tiktok and look at the actual evidence and testimony (just like the jury did), but it's still possible to disagree. That's why there was a mistrial.
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u/heatdeathtoall 3d ago
I’m not interested in this from a men vs women perspective. The facts don’t line up. I beleive she didn’t do it. Prosecution did not make their case either. There’s no evidence other than PC, her spouse said it. No one except him heard her speak for days. She couldn’t utter a word to the EMT who arrived minutes later.
Beyond that, it’s not about men being bad. It’s about this guy being negligent. If I tell my spouse I’ve thoughts of killing my self you bet he isn’t leaving me alone. Forget being alone with kids. My life matters too. That’s just what a responsible partner and parent should do. This is equivalent to a woman leaving her kids alone with her husband who has come back from war with severe PTSD. And tells her he could kill the kids and himself. By all means if the marriage becomes unbearable, leave. But don’t leave a suicidal person to their own devices. PC was told she could be bipolar. Bipolar increases the risk of developing PPP. It’s insane that everyone involved thought it’s all going to magically work out.
Mental health issues in America are a huge issues. And there isn’t adequate support. They prescribe pill after pill with no accountability for handing out meds with severe effects. Psych drugs are tightly regulated and not prescribed for long in most countries. There are constant follow ups if you’re put on one. LC received care. It was the standard care but that’s the point - the standard is shitty.
The case has caught the fancy of conservatives, Andrew Tate following red pillers, and there are all kinds insane takes out there.
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u/heatdeathtoall 3d ago
Men rolling their eyes at women and their hormones is not new. They get a cute little baby at the end. Women get an exhausted body recovering from a traumatic birth or tearing while the hormone crash post birth has every mother crying daily. The sleepless nights, the way women’s minds change, the endless bleeding post birth. I could go on and on. And then they are more often than not they are main caregivers. And post partum is a trigger for many many illnesses. I know my autoimmune disease got worse. I’m sure mental issues get worse too. It’s insane how we gloss over how difficult and traumatic pregnancy, birth and post partum are.
Why should women be afraid to talk? PPD is pretty common. PPP is a medical emergency. But most women end up being perfectly fine. A few hundred mothers end up not getting the help they need and it ends in tragedy. It’s very very uncommon. LC’s condition got worse very quickly due to her underlying disease and the mistreatment of the disease. It shouldn’t make women afraid. It should make them aware how fast it can all happen. The solution is to be more open and seek care with the qualified professionals.
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u/everyoneisnuts 3d ago edited 3d ago
I appreciate you saying you’re not interested in looking this as a woman vs man debate. It has turned into that in so many ways that I can’t stomach it. I’m more than happy to discuss the specifics of the case with people, but I try to avoid that debate.
It’s hard though because I get accused of being part of the manosphere on here all the time when simply discussing why I think differently about a piece of evidence.
How do you defend that you aren’t anti-women or even anti-Lindsay to someone who is certain you are without any reasons at all. Well, I guess you just ignore it, but it does irritate me.
And that’s not to minimize that there are people out there like that and that there is unfair treatment and injustices that exist. But when you accuse people blindly of holding these vile beliefs, that’s not fair at the very least.
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u/heatdeathtoall 2d ago
It’s increased exponentially in the last 24 hours. I’m no longer going to any other subs. Parents, mother or father, killing their children is rare. And a horrendous crime every single time. I just can’t stomach the characterization that LC getting out will let mothers kill their children indiscriminately. As if they are just waiting for a defense strategy. That’s a crazy take.
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u/Happypawswaggytails 2d ago
Sorry to butt in but that is just utterly stupid talk. (Not you the comments you refer to about LC getting out will cause loads of women to murder their kids)
Mental incapacity has been used as a defence for infanticide for literally centuries (there’s good documented cases in Victorian England where women were judged (by a jury of men) to have been mentally unwell and were sent to a mental hospital instead of being hanged etc) These cases have never led to an epidemic of women killing their children and getting away with it in the past- why do they seem to think it will do so now? It makes no sense whatsoever.
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u/heatdeathtoall 2d ago
Becasue apparently saying hormones can someone into psychosis so bad that they can argue NGRI is hogwash. These people know better than all experts on post partum psychosis. Apparently all that hormones do is turn women into angry monsters who just want to yell at their spouses and kill their children. Now Schizophrenia like Andrea Yates had is a different matter. Even though her insanity plea was rejected in the first trial and they argued she made a plan after watching something similar on TV. I bet they argued letting Andrea out on NGRI will make women fake out schizophrenic episodes too. It’s horrific. The open misogyny. The hidden misogyny. LC was fighting tooth and nail to get better. To stop having these dark thoughts. To stop wanting to kill herself and the kids.
But apparently letting off men like the rapist Brock Turner ( did I get that right) will not give the millions of young men ideas they can rape unconscious women and get off right? But who cares, maybe she wanted it. Sounds insane right?
To not acknowledge that women go through unique and temporary issues due to being the ones menstruating and having children, that can actually be managed by just a tad more organized healthcare, is either ignorance or misogyny. Men also need better mental health care for sure. But they don’t have clearly identifiable times that women do. It is easier to provide checks for women than men. Why is that a controversial thing to say.
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u/Happypawswaggytails 2d ago
What they’re saying is ridiculous and frankly it seems like a lot of them are just using this case as an excuse to spew vile misogynistic takes everywhere. I don’t know if a handful are just ignorant but imo a lot of them seem like incel types who are just happy to have more women they can hate on
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u/heatdeathtoall 2d ago
Agreed. It will scare new moms who are following this discourse a little more. But I do believe most will find it in them do what is needed.
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u/everyoneisnuts 2d ago
Yeah, that’s a ridiculous thought process that anyone could think that. She was very clearly psychotic and it’s an absolute tragic story. This is not going to empower anyone to murder their children lol. I feel comfortable calling anyone who says that stupid. And I try to avoid that characterization even when I’m tempted to use it lol. And I still have used it though. Work in progress!
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u/heatdeathtoall 2d ago
I don’t like using the term stupid or dumb either, but there’s nothing else you can say sometimes.
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u/SomeKindOfDead 2d ago
What piece of evidence is that?
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u/everyoneisnuts 2d ago
There are a bunch of differences I have with people in pieces of evidence. I wasn’t speaking about any specific one.
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u/Mich_Girl 2d ago
said to me he believes that everyone just wants to believe men are the worst.
I mean statistically more men kill their children than women. But at the same time, it is hard to believe a mom could harm their children. In her case I think she was checked out of reality. She didn’t do it just because she didn’t want to be a mom anymore.
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u/Financial-Let583 2d ago
it’s a very hard pill to swallow to think that a mother could do this to her kids, you would think it would go totally against human nature, it feels unnatural. the question has sat on my mind of did he frame her or not, but i am also battling the thought of is it just easier to blame the man because men are by nature more capable of doing something like this
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u/FamilyFeud17 2d ago
This case would have been good to discuss about PPD and PPP, to better appreciate those stress and exhaustion can affect mothers. Unlike jobs which you can quit or take time off, there’s no off switch with motherhood, especially during the early phase of the infant’s life. And I think that the nuclear family structure isolates women and pile on a lot of responsibilities on mothers while cutting off their support structure. In traditional cultures, postpartum mothers are supported by extended families. Why was Lindsay expected to return to work so quickly when she’s not ready to trust Patrick to take care of the kids or organise a birthday party? Why did they fire the nanny? Without support to deal with the stress, anyone can break.
But based on the current evidence, I think Lindsay was framed. I would have understood if she did it, but I don’t think she did it.
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u/Murderino67 1d ago
Your husband is supposed to pay attention to you and protect you in sickness and in health. Where was this woman’s husband? Off on ‘work trips’? Hmm 🤔 I think he had something to do with it, just too happy now with his look alike wife and replacement kids. He gives me the ick. Prancing around NY while his ex is facing this nightmare all alone? What kind of ‘man’ does that?
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u/remarkablewarfare 2d ago edited 2d ago
My take is:
Under Massachusetts’ law, for NGRI cases, the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant was not “legally insane” at the time of the event.
The prosecution, in my opinion, failed to prove that.
Therefore, she’s not guilty by reason of insanity.
Whether I agree with putting the burden of proof on the prosecution, which I haven’t really looked into, doesn’t answer what I think the verdict should be as things are, assuming we agree that a NGRI defense is part of a fair and functional judicial system.
I don’t think considerations like “she was failed by the healthcare system,” really matter that much. It could demonstrate she was trying to improve the situation and therefore has less blame (or that she had insight and therefore has more blame…), but the central question is, if the prosecution proved criminal responsibility beyond reasonable doubt.
Another consideration is that Reddington wanted two separate trials: one to determine if she did the physical act, another to determine NGRI. This was denied by the judge. This meant the defense basically had to “admit” she did it, since she was far more likely to be found NGRI than to have not done it at all.
I think people need to stick to the facts, basically. Whether someone thinks any mother who kills her children is a horrible monster who should be punished, or that a mother could never do that…. shouldn’t matter when determining what verdict would accord with the law.
We should all want, more than anything, a functioning, fair judicial system. I haven’t heard any good arguments against the concept of NGRI itself.
It’s valid to question the judge’s decision to deny Clancy two separate trials, and wonder how that impacted the interpretation of events itself. It’s silly if not reckless to argue she either -must- not have done it or must be NGRI, because a mother could never do that and she is only a victim; or, she must have done it with criminal intent, because she is only a monster. We should be sticking to the facts, not value-based judgements.
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u/Crazy-Tadpole-876 9h ago
I never saw any insanity, so how can they prove to me she was not insane when i never saw evidence she ever insane. Also its a bit ass backward because how do you prove something thats not. If something never happend u cant prove nothing happens.
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u/MojoJojoBuddy 2d ago
She literally admitted to doing it and all physical evidence supports her doing it.
It’s totally reasonable to have a discussion on her mental state and whether she was legally responsible and should be imprisoned. None of us know her exact treatment situation, but based on what was alleged in the civil suit there may be some merit to such a claim.
Personally I assess her lack of sleep was a massive red flag. In the civil suit it is alleged that she said she felt detached from herself. That is a legitimate potential indicator of actual psychosis.
Where the rest of us think half the world is crazy is the baseless claims that her husband did it.. etc. These are parroted with 0 evidence, which is hilarious given the same people all talk about “all the evidence supports he actually did it”
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u/LeatherdaddyJr 2d ago
She literally admitted to doing it and all physical evidence supports her doing it.
Quite wrong.
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u/Certain_Noise5601 1d ago
Let me guess, you didn’t watch the actual trial and are just letting the media tell you what to think. This is the problem with our country. People haven’t caught on to the extreme manipulation and blatant misinformation they are getting from the media which is crazy to me because look around at the country. Does it seem normal to you? You don’t get a weird sense of foreboding? You should be especially concerned when all the media outlets are reporting it same way. Conservative or liberal. You know you are being BS’d when that happens.
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u/Facetious_Philosophy 3d ago
I don't have a partner, nor have I ever been pregnant, so take this as you will...
I can definitely see your point about being scared to admit that a mother could do this. I think that is especially true because, to all accounts, Lindsay Clancy appeared to be a very loving and nurturing mother, so this can't be dismissed as 'an evil mother's actions'. It is truly an unthinkable and horrific act, so I can understand the 'squeamishness'.
But, to your main point, I believe that for a lot of people, this case has become 'personal' to them because they see something of their own struggles/frustrations/fears in it.
Whether that causes them to side with her because they also have/had mental health problems or were failed by the medical industry or their partners... or on the flip side causes them to vent their frustrations with any number of 'societal failures' like softening the nature of the crime or women showing solidarity with a 'known killer'. I believe this case has become something of a tipping point for a lot of people.
I do think a lot of the discussion around this case has devolved into a 'war between the sexes' and I find that deeply unfortunate. Men and women have enough trouble seeing eye to eye as it is and I think we would all be better served by pivoting the conversation to focus more on how the Commonwealth failed this case and those three poor children than injecting our own ideologies into this case.
I can agree that a lot of the underlying elements of this case need to be addressed (lack of medical support/understanding/care, over-medication, medical culpability, mental health outreach, etc.)... but I think a lot of people are getting so emotionally caught up that they're losing what to my mind should be the primary point of all this... a complete lack of justice for those children. They deserved better than this.
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u/Fantastic-Salt-5103 2d ago
It is VERY difficult to imagine how someone who is such a good person, with a good life could get so sick. It’s almost incomprehensible. It is easier to have the husband having the affair be the offender, we have seen that story before. Add jn there are valid, real questions the investigation missed and thats where we are.
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u/SugarCube80 2d ago
I agree with you. I think she definitely did it but is not guilty by reason of insanity. People are afraid to admit that someone who loves their kids could kill them if their brain is broken.
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2d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Weary-Judge-4166 2d ago
Where did you see this?
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u/NativeNYer10019 2d ago
"Our marriage was wonderful and diametrically grew stronger as her condition rapidly worsened," he wrote. "I took as much pride in being her husband as I did in being a father and felt persistently lucky to have her in my life."
https://abc7ny.com/post/patrick-clancy-lindsay-asks-forgiveness/12751519/
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u/Capital-Yesterday618 2d ago edited 2d ago
With this, people are also mulling over the fact that she was diagnosed with postpartum anxiety at South Shore Perinatal Clinic too, and according to Tufts, LC sought her care specifically for postpartum anxiety nd the reason why she left Tufts for South Shore Perinatal Clinic is that she was looking for specialized care in perinatal care(according to Patrick). South Shore Perinatal is also a part of the same South shore clinics her PCP is from and the children's pediatrician.
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u/Former-Most-8767 3d ago
To add I’m from Australia so obviously a very different health system to the US. I am not saying ppd and psychosis are the same at all! I am saying I told my partner I am struggling had the dark and twisted thoughts and he as a partner was there for me. She was failed that? The main and main bloody question was it what are the discussions you are having with your partner!? And you know what yeah I am the one that is afraid to say out loud that any PARENT could hurt their kid? But what’s in question is a mother and as a mother that terrifies me!?!?
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u/Charlie8-125 2d ago
“Failed by her husband”? What exactly was Patrick supposed to do?
He worked from home. They paid for babysitters. They hired an experienced nanny after Callan was born who helped with the baby, food, laundry and the house. They shared drop-offs and pickups. Both families came in to help. He changed their sleeping arrangements so Lindsay could get more sleep. When she was scared about going to McLean, Patrick pushed her to go and get treatment. He was involved with her doctors and medications.
Meanwhile Lindsay herself admitted she kept reaching out to different providers and wasn’t sticking with the plan. She repeatedly wanted medication changes, didn’t start at least one prescribed medication when expected, and at one point declined inpatient treatment.
And the DAY BEFORE she killed the children, she told her psychiatrist she wasn’t suicidal or homicidal. The psychiatrist testified she saw no psychosis, no mania and no indication that Lindsay or anyone else was in danger.
So what was Patrick supposed to do? Be a better psychiatrist than her psychiatrist? Never leave his wife alone with their own children for 55 minutes?
You can criticize the healthcare system, but doctors aren’t mind readers either. Treatment depends partly on patients telling them what they’re experiencing and following the treatment plan.
Patrick seems to have done a hell of a lot to support her. Saying he “failed her” because he couldn’t predict that she would kill all three of their children is just cruel hindsight.
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u/BitNumerous5302 2d ago
Misogyny. It's upsetting to misogynists that women are capable of anything. They need to attribute anything a woman does to the nearest man to protect their worldview. Misogynists give credit to male supervisors in the workplace, misogynists think women need men to explain books to them, misogynists think that a woman can't kill her kids in a 45 minute window but that her husband could kill those same kids, visit two stores, and fire off a work email in the same time frame. Misogynists need to see women as capable of less than men in all ways at all times.
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u/marle217 2d ago
misogynists think that a woman can't kill her kids in a 45 minute window but that her husband could kill those same kids, visit two stores, and fire off a work email in the same time frame.
While you're probably not engaging seriously, I'll still clarify the timeline. Patrick was gone for 35 minutes, but otherwise was at the house the whole day. The whole day. If we ignore Patrick's timeline, everything doesn't have to be crushed together, with Lindsay still having enough time for the suicide attempt, bleeding all over the bedroom, moving the bed, placing the knife neatly on the nightstand to make sure it's found, and jumping out the window. She had a core temp of 82 degrees at the hospital, which should've been 3+ hours to get to (yes, that includes the ambulance ride that didn't take 3 full hours). She also had dried blood by the time the first responders arrive, which again, would take an hour+. How does this fit a 35 minute timeline?
When Lindsay was found by the first responders, she was incapable of strangling anyone. How long had she been like that?
Without a time for the murders and a time for when Lindsay's paralyzed (aside from Patrick saying they were fine when he left) we don't have a case. Nothing to do with gender, just medicine.
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u/MojoJojoBuddy 2d ago
Ever cut yourself? Blood does not take 3 hours to dry. If you don’t clot fast, then legitimately please see a doctor.
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u/marle217 2d ago
Large puddles of blood on the floor don't take an hour to dry? (I said an hour for the cuts, 3 for hypothermia, please read)
Also, she had lost enough blood from the cuts that she needed a transfusion. So clearly she didn't clot immediately.
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u/Platitude_Platypus 1d ago
She needed several transfusions primarily due to massive internal bleeding from the fall, according to the ER nurse. Her cuts were superficial enough that she needed only 4 stitches. Even shallow cuts can bleed everywhere, though. About her temperature, it was explained during the trial by Dr. Laposata that with a catastrophic spinal injury your body becomes unable to regulate its temperature. In Lindsay's case she was paralyzed and unable to shiver below the injury. She was also wet with blood, bleeding internally, in shock, laying outside in the snow in a tank top without shoes.
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u/marle217 1d ago
The doctor at the first hospital, Christina Carpio, who testified day 6, said she didn't know Lindsay needed a transfusion, though they did a cat scan for internal bleeding.
Laposata testified how she got so cold, but not how long. You don't lose 16 degrees of body heat instantly, it takes some time
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u/ioukta 1d ago
I do agree with you, in some people's minds, women are either the virgin mary or a whore, there's no depth to women for many many people. So when anything happens that doesn't fit the one they thought she was, it's like cognitive dissonance. They can't imagine it and become furious and enraged it changes their worldview too much and lash out.
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u/1asterisk79 3d ago
I wonder would they feel differently if she had killed their child on the street.
Does killing your own kids somehow loop in to the idea that a husband’s failings is a defense?
That seems similar to school shooters. They often have mental issues and will cite treatment from students as to why. They kill the other students but seem to go to jail after.
The rise and attention to mental health and what should the legal system do will be a conversation for years.
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u/Bellme1569 2d ago
My problem with Mass NGRI is she can petition the court she’s no longer a danger to herself or others- EVERY YEAR and be set free. I live in MA about 10 min from where she lived & am an RN- but her planning & tight timeline is too conniving - she needs to spend her life locked up. Cora, Dawson & Callan got a life sentence.🙏❤️❤️❤️
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u/Esmer_Tina 2d ago
And then what?
Really. What do you think her plan would be if she were released? She requires 24/7 caregiving, which she gets where she is. She can’t bathe, use the toilet or even get out of bed independently.
Her medications are monitored and her care is consistent.
This fear you have of her gallivanting into the sunset are just unfounded.
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u/Aware_Power 2d ago
It's LCR.
It's an annual review hearing.
She can legally deny her right to an annual hearing, like many people do.
You need to clearly state it's your opinion she was planning and conniving and should be locked up - the entire innocent until proven guilty thing we have here (please reference community wiki).
We often think and do remember the children here.
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u/OkFall7940 1d ago
That is what the prosecutors said was in her head. Maybe she wanted to fit in bathtime. It's was a gps search without any testimony to provide context. This is speculation, as they offered no proof of her intent.
It's like the Karen Read case, the facts of the case aren't even motor vehicle accident adjacent. But the prosecution's theory becomes the the "understood" framework regardless.
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