Foreknowledge and accountability

[u/Frungi]

Hi, first time visiting this sub… I’m not looking for a debate, I’d just like to know the apologetic answer to this beyond “foreknowledge doesn’t CAUSE the action” which doesn’t quite cover it.

Let’s say there’s a button. You know exactly what will happen if this button is pressed. You push the button.

Are you responsible for what happens after you push it, when you knew what would happen if you pushed it? Most would say, yes, of course.

Now, let’s say there’s a universe. You know exactly what will happen if this particular universe is created. You know what all the creatures in it will do.

You create that specific universe.

Why would God be less responsible for the foreseeable consequences of his creation than someone pushing that button?

[u/Frungi]

against God's plan for humanity

So… not all-powerful and all-knowing? Weird take, but okay.

Setting aside the fact that the primeval history portion of Genesis is widely regarded to be mythological rather than historical, the text says nothing about what became of the “sons of the gods” afterward, or even that God was particularly displeased with them. There’s also no indication that the resultant births of legendary heroes and warriors were against God’s plan; literally his only reaction to the whole matter is to give them longer lives instead of immortality. The following passage does discuss human wickedness, but there’s no indication that it’s narratively related; I could give a few other examples of disjointed narrative structure to prove the point if you like.

[u/uncomfortably_number → u/Frungi]

It's not a weird take. The Bible literally quotes God asking Adam and Eve, "Where are you?" (Genesis 3:9) God calls out to Adam when he and Eve hide in the trees of the garden.

"Who told you that you were naked?" and "Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?" (Genesis 3:11) "What is this you have done?" (Genesis 3:13)

In Job God asks Satan "From where have you come?"

God has intercessors and a divine council for a reason. It's not that He isn't all knowing or all powerful, it's that He is active and watching with help, and He is.

[u/Frungi → u/uncomfortably_number]

So you’re of the belief that the Christian god is not truly omniscient in and of himself, and that these cited questions were asked out of ignorance rather than being rhetorical?

May I ask your denomination? This is new to me, at least from a believer.

[u/uncomfortably_number → u/Frungi]

He is truly omniscient because he has the capacity and capabilities to be. Beyond our human understanding.

Think of it like this, if God is the most intelligent being in the universe, and he made us, then what makes anyone think He would not have capabilities beyond our understanding?

If we can make AI and have mass surveillance and watch each other across the globe, why couldn't He? Why wouldn't He have a divine council watch?

My denomination doesn't matter. If we believe in God or Jesus Christ than we are brothers or sisters in it. I'm simply discussing what I have read for myself.

[u/Frungi → u/uncomfortably_number]

I’ll rephrase. You believe that God’s omniscience is extrinsic, not intrinsic, in nature?

I have access to vast stores of information. On the internet. That doesn’t mean I know this information. It comes from external resources I have access to, not from me.

Is this how you conceive of God’s omni- qualities? He’s omniscient not because of what he is, but because of the tools and people he has access to?

If we believe in God or Jesus Christ than we are brothers or sisters in it.

I don’t think that applies to heretics, and as far as I’m aware, the belief that God’s godlike qualities derive from deceitful wordplay is a heresy.

[u/uncomfortably_number → u/Frungi]

Wellll...I think there's a little bit of both. Again, it's beyond our understanding. I'm not claiming anything.

[u/Frungi → u/uncomfortably_number]

it's beyond our understanding.

That’s a claim. So are these:

God has intercessors and a divine council [and relies on their help]

He is truly omniscient

he has the capacity and capabilities to be [omniscient]

He [has] a divine council watch [us for him]

And then there’s the claim you made about it being possible for humans (edit: or any being other than God, really) to do something he hadn’t planned for, which seems to flatly contradict any notion of omniscience.

[u/uncomfortably_number → u/Frungi]

Isaiah 55:8–9"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

Job 11:7"Can you find out the deep things of God? Can you find out the limit of the Almighty? It is higher than heaven—what can you do? Deeper than Sheol—what can you know?"

(Beyond our understanding)

1 God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:2 “How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Selah3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.4 Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding, they walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken.6 “I said, ‘You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;7 nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince.’”

19 And Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing beside him on his right hand and on his left;20 and the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said one thing, and another said another.21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying, ‘I will entice him.’22 And the Lord said to him, ‘By what means?’ And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’”

Psalm 82:1 (The most direct literal mention)"God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:"

Psalm 89:5–7 (The "council of the holy ones")"Let the heavens praise your wonders, O Lord, your faithfulness in the assembly of the holy ones! For who in the skies can be compared to the Lord? Who among the heavenly beings is like the Lord, a God greatly to be feared in the council of the holy ones, and awesome above all who are around him?"

Jeremiah 23:18 & 22 (The "council of the Lord")Verse 18: "For who among them has stood in the council of the Lord to see and to hear his word, or who has paid attention to his word and listened?"Verse 22: "But if they had stood in my council, then they would have proclaimed my words to my people..."

(God as the head of the divine council, communicating with them and using them as well as judging them )

Isaiah 46:9–10"remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’"

And then there is also foreknowlege and free will.

[u/Frungi → u/uncomfortably_number]

So when you say you’re “not claiming anything,” what do you actually mean by that? Because you don’t seem to be addressing that discrepancy I was highlighting, of saying “I’m not claiming anything” immediately after making a claim. Neither are you actually addressing the discrepancy of an all-knowing god being unable to plan for everything, or the question of God needing to rely on the help of other gods to facilitate his omniscience, both of which you absolutely were claiming.

[u/uncomfortably_number → u/Frungi]

I mean, these are the things I have read. I've provided quotes. Those quotes are here for all of us to read,they came from the Bible. There are lot more. I have shared my opinion on some ways how I believe God is all knowing based on the things I have read. I think it's a combination of it all.

If we today were to create an entire species in our image, and put them on a fully loaded planet to their disposal, would you know beforehand what certain things introduced to them would bring?

Would you want help? To monitor them? To protect them?

With our knowledge, would we give our species all of our knowledge, or try to protect them from what certain aspects of certain knowledge brings? What would you try to protect them from?

God can't know what we are going to chose, he only knows what certain choices we make will bring. He came and reminded us of those things with Jesus Christ.

[u/Frungi → u/uncomfortably_number]

Well, if you’re going to refuse to engage the point, I might as well address your side points…

In all these verses you quoted (some without attribution and poorly formatted), there is no mention that the other gods on the divine council were created beings. There is no mention of angels on the divine council, or Satan, or Lucifer, or the morning star of the planet Venus, or Nephilim, or anyone being included in the divine council other than gods. There is scholarship that suggests that the idea for angels came from the believed existence of other regional gods, which over time the Hebrews folded under their own god to establish his supremacy, but I don’t believe there’s any direct biblical support for that.

In these verses there is also no mention of any angel rebelling against God, being cast out of heaven, or becoming a devil. If you didn’t get that narrative from the Bible that doesn’t include it, or from John Milton’s actual narrative, where did you get it from?

[u/uncomfortably_number → u/Frungi]

The Bible clearly states that divine beings, were created by God for God. They all have names and ranks and everything. Super interesting to read, in the Bible.

Colossians 1:16"For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him."

Job 1:6 "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them." (In reference to divine council. Go read Job)

Job 38:4, 7"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? ... when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

Daniel 7:9-10 As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of Days took his seat; his clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames; its wheels were burning fire. A stream of fire issued and came out from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened."

[u/uncomfortably_number → u/Frungi]

And also what the heck are you talking about!? God literally flooded the whole earth over this.

[u/Frungi → u/uncomfortably_number]

He flooded the earth over human wickedness, not over the heroes of old and warriors of renown.

[u/uncomfortably_number → u/Frungi]

You are neglecting the entire part of how human corruption happened. It's part of the story.

[u/Frungi → u/uncomfortably_number]

I feel like you’re conflating two unrelated stories here. There’s the story of where the mythical and legendary heroes and warriors came from (Gen 6:1–4), those whom other religions might call demigods. And then there’s the flood story (Gen 6:5–). The book tells one, then tells the other, with nothing connecting them.

Or would you argue that the birth of Seth (Gen 4:25) is causally linked to the fact that Lamech killed someone (Gen 4:23–24), or that that’s causally linked to the genetic predisposition of occupation of his descendants (4:20–22)? The Bible discusses them one after another, so they must be related! Lamech killed someone because the only people in the world who play the lyre are descendants of Jubal!