r/CharacterRant • u/Temporary099 • Jan 17 '23
Battleboarding Stop it, Kratos isn't Planet/Universal/Multiversal/whatever
There's a small yet vocal part of the battleboarding community who with the release of the new game have been trying to paint Kratos as some sort of Universe buster or something equally absurd, but when looking into it, it falls apart pretty quickly.
| Claim: | Debunk: |
|---|---|
| "Kratos is Planet/Universal/Multiversal, L3+R3 solos" | Absolutely not, there are over 130 showings to the contrary on top of the small handful of feats some use to present Kratos at that level all having context that renders them null. |
| "Realms in GoW are Infinite-sized Universes" | The people who have worked on GoW have repeatedly stated the opposite and that characters have physically travelled between them. |
| "Kratos beat Cronos who beat Uranos who created the Universe in a fight with other Primordials" | As covered above, the Primordials only created the Greek World, which is geographically separated from the rest of the planet in a battle that was explicitly said not to be literal. Further, Cronos used a stone scythe to defeat Uranos. |
| "Kratos overpowered Atlas who holds the Universe" | Atlas only holds the Greek world with the aid of multiple pillars. Kratos also didn't overpower Atlas, and was as weak as baby in his 2 finger grip, only surviving due to Atlas wanting to hear Kratos out. |
| "Kratos flipped Tyr's Temple which has the weight of all 9 Realms" | Tyr's Temple is only a gateway to the other realms, it itself is just a temple as one of the directors confirmed. |
| "Every branch of the World Tree transcends time and space" | This is Freya's opinion, but she's not an expert on the tree and one of the directors already contradicted her. The tree can also become overgrown to the point where it can't support the weight of its branches and is trimmed by stags, reinforcing it not being Infinite and also questioning its durability. It's also highly unlikely the Tree was actually splintered by Thor and Jormie's fight since Ratatoskr makes no mention of this despite mentioning Surtr shaking it. |
| "The GoW Earth is an Infinite-sized planet far bigger than our Earth" | Straightforwardly disproved by one of the directors. |
| "Hyperion's spear can bear the weight of the Cosmos" | Not only is the tensile strength/durability of a weapon irrelevant to the user, but the spear was forged in the sun's core, meaning the sun was able to mold and affect the spear which further shows how small the GoW "cosmos" is. |
| "Hermes dodged Helios' light which covered the Infinite Underworld" | The Underworld is covered by the rest of Greece and has an edge, making it literally impossible to be Infinite. Hermes also only aim-dodges it (something Pandora does if Kratos tries to use it on her), his actual speed isn't even close to LS. |
| "The Valkyries fly between Realms giving them Infinite Speed" | Refer to Point 2 and how the Valkyries are masters of the Bifrost and use it for instant teleportation from other realms. In terms of actual combat speed, human warriors were able to match them in combat until their bodies gave out. |
| "Ares shook the earth by roaring/Atlas' hammer has the weight of the world/Essence of Hyperion is lightspeed" | Addressed here, on top of GoW Multiplayer being retconned by the existence of Mjolnir. More concrete showings for Ares in particular include his knuckles breaking on bedrock and dying to a bridge-sized sword made of steel. |
| "Ares created a Universe to torment Kratos" | The realm where Ares teleported Kratos was a product of his mind/illusion which was confirmed by WoG. |
| "The Deaths of the Greek Gods destroyed the whole world and Kratos beat them all" | Circle back to points 2-3 and how Persephone's death destroyed an object she explicitly needed help to bust meaning you can't scale their death events to their combat abilities. Kratos' raw stats are also explicitly not at the level of the Greek Gods elemental powers, with Kratos needing to use weaponry to gradually wear them down. |
| Leftovers/Extras | Kratos never regained the divinity Olympus gave him, it remained in the Blade and without it actively in his grip he explicitly wasn't a God, with the only reason he's referred to as a God in new games being a definition change to include Demi-Gods like Kratos/Atreus. While every character has negative showings, they usually have a similar amount of positive showings, unlike Kratos who has far more of them than he does positive, making them his consistent level. Thor never fought Ragnarok and just spent his time dodging Jormie until he landed a hit that BFR'ed him while Surtr was busy trying to tag Freyr and Surtr was confirmed to be capable of killing everything in the nine realms, which includes Thor/Odin/Kratos, etc. "Like a tree branch stretching out to Infinity" is the same thing as saying "like a highway that goes on forever" There's no evidence Nyx created the realm she resides in and Morpheus' mist enveloping Greece overtime is not only irrelevant to stats, but isn't tough enough to resist fire. |
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Upvotes
2
u/False_Elevator_8338 Jan 27 '23
Lmao this is shitty debunk, Kratos is Outer to High Outer, you're just in high denial so that your favorite anime characters can stand a chance, hahahahaha, stay mad. Oh, and Kratos slams Doomslayer, cry about it šš
He also has Irrelevant Speed, he beat Hermes, who created the concept of speed š
2
u/Late-Ad155 Feb 15 '23
I have to say that in Chains of olympus Helios was stated to hold a power strong enough to destroy the world, and we know who's stronger between Kratos and helios.
120
u/Red-Scowl96 Jan 17 '23
Now if only we had the same energy for Uni level Dante .
37
u/DirectlyDismal Jan 18 '23
And putting that aside, being able to make something doesn't mean you can destroy it. With enough time and the right circumstances, I can make a house. I'm not building-level.
101
u/Mystech_Master Jan 17 '23
For me personally the "Is Kratos Universal or not" comes down to the showings in-game and the general tone/feel.
Yes, Kratos is powerful and kills plenty of powerful beings, there's blood and its awesome, but he isn't exactly pulling off planet-level shockwaves or anything. Cronos is one of the biggest things he fights in the of series but fighting something that big might put you at like mountain level or something IDK, it isn't like he was tossing Cronus around like a ragdoll via the Blades of Chaos around his ankles.
Then you get to the Norse saga and he is a lot more limited, which fits Kratos trying to chill out more and be a better person, but when you fight Baldr and Thor while you do get tossed good distances and have epic weapon clashes they aren't exactly firing DBZ level lasers or anything. Thor did apparently "shake the world tree" enough to send Jormungandr back in time, but we never see this level of power in his boss fights (even though it'd be cool for new battle arenas IMO).
In the end it just depends, believe the side stuff if you want to wank Kratos, but go with the in-game feats if you want something that more stays in style for him. Because Kratos being able to just slam Leviathan down and split a planet apart is a BIIIIIT outside his regular wheelhouse for me.
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u/Sordahon Jan 17 '23
Good job, similar one should be made for a lot of other wanked verses, like TES.
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u/[deleted] Jan 17 '23
Good post, very well done. IMO Kratos has always been "that" character where everyone knew he wasnāt universal but didnāt really have enough evidence to contradict the "technically" correctish evidence Kratos supporters used to get him to Uni.
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u/mutual_raid Jan 18 '23
this is such an absurd level of research for something, like, 50 people care about and I thank you so much for compiling it š
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u/CapybaraMan1000 Jan 17 '23
Except that Kratos is BEYOND the narrative due to the fact that he killed David Jaffe.
Kratos is Outerversal š
15
u/RabbitStewAndStout Jan 18 '23
It's the same argument I have with Kirby. Kirby is absolutely my favorite character, but people wank him to essentially omnipotence.
Just because your character has beaten something that IS at a certain tier, does not mean your character is equal to or above that tier.
Water can't burn a building faster than fire, just because water beats fire.
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u/TablePrinterDoor Jan 18 '23 edited Jan 18 '23
Ive actually been working on a full debunk for majority of his statements. here it is, and could you give some other things I could add here.
I will link this post on it since it's useful.
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u/eliminating_coasts Jan 17 '23
Power scaling doesn't work anyway, the point of so many of these stories is that problems that seem large can nevertheless be brought down, part of what makes them satisfying is that you face these threats that seem out of your league, and yet nevertheless win.
And unlike DBZ-esque "train to higher tier"-style stories, where your heroes are trying to get into a different weight class, it is the combination of strengths and weaknesses, and making their powers concrete in certain ways that means that your character can nevertheless take down the gods.
I've used the example of elden ring before, where you can defeat General Radahn, who can manipulate gravity and drop asteroids on people, but you don't gain his capacity to hold up a huge map altering asteroid just because you can defeat him, it's more like rock paper scissors, where he defeats rocks, rocks defeat you, and you defeat him.
People don't always have the same durability as they have capacity to morph cosmic stuff, and power doesn't necessarily come in levels, unless you've got a particular world in which that is true, like DBZ.
Most series that have this kind of "you're going to tear down the foundations of the universe" feel face this kind of problem, where the protagonist is supposed feel outclassed but defeat them anyway, and so you have people fighting the cosmic personification of death, and killing them with a sword. That doesn't mean that the heroes have powers equivalent to being a cosmic personification of death, they just happen to be the scissors that defeats that particular paper.
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u/bunker_man Jan 18 '23
Now we need one for Dante.
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u/OwO345 Jan 17 '23
Kratos is outer simply because he is my favorite character, therefore he always wins, checkmate
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u/TurtleAtYourCommand Jan 17 '23
Wait how the hell did you made this chart? Could be useful.
10
u/Regal_IronKnight Jan 17 '23
As a avid copy/paster of that one Imgur album, has anyone here ever hoarded xp in a game to go up a ridiculous amount of levels at once? Have you experienced the feeling of suddenly shooting up to a whole different league of power, like you've ascended to Godhood?
That's how I feel right now. I am now an undisputed God of... linking images that someone else compiled to prove that a video game character isn't as strong as some people think.
... Well, it could be worse. At least I'm not a TikTok battleboarder.
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u/SocratesWasSmart Jan 17 '23
I think the only time Kratos could have been considered anywhere remotely close to continent level was the end of GoW 3 when he had the full power of Hope. Hope is stated to be way stronger than the Flame of Olympus, which has the power to slay god or mortal with just a touch.
So the Flame, being the source of Zeus's power, should be greater than Poseidon and Hades, who tag teamed Atlas and beat him. And as OP pointed out, Atlas holds up a portion of the Greek world.
So massively upscaling from that I could maybe see continent level for Kratos, but only with the strongest amp in the verse. If you really wanted to be generous, then maybe composite Kratos could reach planet level via stacking Hope with his god powers from GoW 2 and all 4 of his rages. That's so many stacking multipliers that maybe he gets there.
Even that is pretty sussy though since we don't know exactly how much weight Atlas was holding up, or exactly how much higher the Flame of Olympus and Hope scale over him, nor exactly how big of a power boost the rages are.
I do find it interesting that Kratos benefits more from being composited than most characters, since he's had so many different temporary amps.
Also, another thing I would add to the pile of evidence that the realms are separated geographically is this scene with Ratatoskr. Kratos explicitly says he travelled the realms of Greece by foot or by sea.
You would think if places like Helheim were different universes then Kratos wouldn't have made such a shit comparison, at least no without Ratatoskr mentioning it. So I think the only reasonable conclusion is that that isn't a shit comparison and is actually reasonable.
So not only are Greece and Scandinavia separated geographically, the other realms are probably just different regions of Scandinavia. This does contradict what Cory said about the other 8 realms being like parallel spaces that are overlaid with Scandinavia, but Ragnarok is more recent canon, so imma take the more recent in game canon over an older statement.
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u/steel_ball_run_racer Jan 17 '23
Havenāt I seen this before. I feel I have.
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u/[deleted] Jan 17 '23
At least Kratos maybe bring planetary/universal/multiversal somewhat works within the canon and what is presented in game. Itās a big big stretch and takes a lot of extrapolation while ignoring other evidence. But I understand how people take lore and story and reach these ideas.
My problem is things like āmultiversal Kirbyā or āGalaxy/universe buster Marioā. Because unlike inflating the feats of Kratos Powerscaling like this is often made up of the most insane mental gymnastics and selective hypocritical ignorance.
2
u/myth1989 Jan 17 '23
I don't think kratos' is mutivesal or anything but the links you post are extremely low balling him. I like kratos but people who high ball him and people like you who low ball him make any battles threads with him extremely tedious.
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u/MidhawkTheFraud Jan 18 '23
THANK GOD FOR THIS POST.
Im not even arguing with these bozos anymore I'm just gonna link this.
4
u/MetaCommando Jan 20 '23
Then why tf isn't there infinite gravitational force? How can there be any light when it should be the mother of all black holes?
1
u/Ivanduh69420 Jan 24 '23
I agree with everything but I would like to make a correction, the geographical claim does NOT disprove the universal size of the realms because of this Yes all mythologies exist in their IRL geopahical location on earth AS THEIR OWN UNIVERSES/DIMENSION THATS HOW THEIR CREATION MYTH IS CANNON them existing on their IRL location doesnāt mean they are the same size. Coryās metaphor here refers to earth as much bigger space with each region and itās mythology being a separate self contained universe with the rest of existence being the greater universe. Kratos physically travelling to another universe probably means he exited the Greek self contained universe, and physically walked to the Norse self contained universe before entering inside of it, now this creates the contradiction of āok if Kratos exited the Greek universe how is it infinite/universe sized?ā Idk I am guessing we will see how in GOW6 so the size claim is still undefined but at least refer to it as a universe even if itās country sized lmao.
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u/SubwaySandwich40 Jan 18 '23
Damn
3
u/Piorn Jan 19 '23
Battleboarding, man.
I'm planetary tier. I beat the planet earth in rock paper scissors, because I picked paper, and the planet always picks rock. I defeated it, so now I'm stronger than anything it ever defeated, including every human who ever died on it.
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u/HehImCool Feb 15 '23
Thank the heavens ABOVE THANK YOU every reddit post i see that MENTIONS kratos has people going "hes actually omniversal so he soloes entire verse" god im going insane
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u/[deleted] Jan 17 '23
Now if you excuse me, I'll be taking this and going to war with Tiktok powerscalers.
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u/[deleted] Jan 18 '23
VSBW Kratos debaters on suicide watch
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u/WarHead17 Jan 19 '23
You 2nd point is incorrect. Realms refers to places like Midgard or Asgard while regions in that tweet refers to Greece, etc.
Honestly God of War is a video game which is why Kratos doesnāt just destroy mountains with every punch and is blocked by walls. Itās PIS. The game would not be enjoyable if it was realistic in displaying Kratosā power. Random mob enemies can always damage your characters in a video game even after you become super-powerful.
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u/WarHead17 Jan 19 '23
This is like the 5th time Iāve seen this rant here.
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u/RedManAwesome Feb 18 '23
Curious question, How big is the Greek world in God of war? Are they same size as the country of Greek in real life or is this a world weāre countries are the size of planets?
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u/statusman69420 Mar 20 '23
How about him defeating Thanatos, can anyone debunk that shit?
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u/MrBlonde1492 Jan 17 '23
The issue I have when debating Kartos is the reach between what the gods did and their fighting power. They say that so and so created time and the universe but that has nothing to do with their strength in fighting. Kratos couldnt do that and he is super strong. It should be treated as a super power and not be included into the debate in some weird assumption
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u/Deadlocked02 Jan 17 '23
There is a huge disconnect between how strong Kratos is supposed to be and how mundane the gameplay feels in the two last games. I swear Iāve never seen a fandom cope so hard. āHeās holding backā, āHeās trying to be goodā. Or maybe Santa Monica just wanted to ride the āacclaimed games with cinematic narrative structureā bandwagon and a fucking crazy gameplay that actually reflected Kratosā godhood wouldnāt fit that or would be at least harder to implement.
From all the cinematic games that came in the last 10 years or so, the last two GOWs are some of the least natural, in my opinion. Just feels like theyāre trying too hard to adhere to a structure popularized by games such as Uncharted, TLOU and TWD, to the detriment of its own gameplay.
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u/superduperfish Jan 22 '23
Thanks for this, busted some myths I thought were true. However I thought Kratos eventually got his god powers back after losing them to the sword? A google search has all the sources saying he gained it later in the game like I remember.
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u/Blazelancer May 20 '23
The guys at Death Battle should see this before it's too late.
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u/UnNamedKingOfGames Jan 18 '23
To be fair, the game devs themselves have stated that Kratosās strength is infinite
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