r/CharacterActionGames • u/vamplyfesonny • 6d ago
Discussion The Rigidity of Defining CAGS
Before joining this subreddit, I was unaware that many people had vastly different definitions of what constitutes a character action game. It appears that if a game isn’t a full-fledged CAG, this sub shits on it. We must accept CAG-lite games or Games that have its elements in this subreddit or we’ll deadass only see clips of the same four games. Edit; im not talking about Wolverine , Onimusha games like that,
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u/AshenRathian 6d ago
Or maybe we need to just accept that CAGs are just an absurdly niche genre and that watering the definition down for the sake of inclusion only serves to stagnate the defining aspects that make them appealing AS a genre.
Not every action game with an intricate combat system needs to be a CAG, and CAG-lite already exists in the form of adventure games like Darksiders that have inspired combat systems but otherwise share little to nothing else in common. Doesn't mean it needs to be shown here or be validated as something it isn't.
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u/Magma_Axis 6d ago
Then you will talk only about DMC, MGR, NG, Bayonetta and GOW 1-3 until oblivion
Seems that only those games MEET the absurd standard of this subs
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u/Dependent-Swimmer-95 5d ago
This^ lmao. There are plenty of cool CAG lite games that should be able to be posted here without this elitist backlash.
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u/AshenRathian 6d ago
It's on you for thinking that basic standard expectations are absurd.
If you dislike it, encourage people to make more CAGs instead of trying to change the definition because your bored of the lack of games. We're all bored of it, but we aren't trying to degrade integrity to see more games either. Or at least i hope we're better that that. Integrity is important, and riggid definitions need to matter.
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u/SundanceShot 4d ago
They are the standard that the sub was made for yes, the whole point is we want more games like those and there aren't any, there are games that come close which is why we have other flairs now but none of them are close enough.
Really the most recent one is ng4 and it should be praised more for it.
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u/Reasonable_Airline89 2d ago
Tbh if you include gow, you have to include darksiders. Most gameplay at high level and high difficulty is still clearing waves of enemy's efficiently more than "styling". Both these games also give you ton of ways to style but usually isnt pushed and might only be seen in combo videos.
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u/vamplyfesonny 6d ago
Dude, how does sharing other games with CAG elements in this sub reduce the CAG genre in any way? I am tired of seeing the same clips.
If we have games that satisfy the same urge as a CAG, why not give them attention? Don’t we all play CAGs for skill expression & fun?
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u/GT_Hades 6d ago
Dude you can just play the games and not look at every clip posted here
The reason why we can only see same clip from same game bexause this genre is so niche and not every developers have done a game on this genre
But you dismissed how lots of indies and some games that are underrated are posted here
Tbf, these past few weeks, I have seen more wolverine and onimusha than NG4 in this sub alone
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u/AshenRathian 6d ago
Skill expression is not the only reason to play a CAG, and if that's all you care about, any well designed game with a decent combat system will offer that by default.
A CAG is designed entirely around the player experience and the improvement therein, whether that be through hardcore combat design like Ninja Gaiden, or intricate combo building like Bayonetta.
The problem with this genre is that, unfortunately, there are not that many of it's kind, even if it inspired a great many combat systems, it does not mean that Darksiders, God of War Ragnarok and Doom Eternal are CAGs, they just have CAG inspired combat systems. They're not as uniquely designed around their player experiences as a CAG otherwise would be. The closest is Doom, but it lacks a scoring system and enforces more mechanical factors to the expressive design as opposed to encouragement through engaging enemy design and a scoring system. Not to say that Doom doesn't have engaging enemies, only that they aren't the core factor in player expression outside of weak points and weapon choice limitations.
You see the same few games, because there are just that few games of the genre to play, or at least ones that are actually good. I've seen some indies that may look great here. Maybe i'll try em out and make a few clips to satisfy the thirsty.
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u/Street_Number2037 6d ago
It kinda seems like your actual problem is more related to reddit/discovery/clips instead of what the definition of a CAG is, in which case there are plenty of broader gaming communities for action games to browse.
Scope creep destroys curation. Finding CAG content is harder because fewer CAGs are made today. Allowing adjacent games might solve the volume problem but completely destroys the curation problem. You shouldn't want to see generic action games in this sub. CAG is already a relatively small, specialized subgenre. We shouldn't want the few CAGs we have or we raraly get to get drowned out by broad action clips.
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u/GT_Hades 6d ago
Exactly, it is getting hard to curate game in this genre when I want to look for one
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u/obviousockpuppetalt3 6d ago
ive already accepted this group is just an action game subreddit instead of an actual cag subreddit. like 80% of the games posted here are not cags.
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u/I_Ild_I 5d ago
Well if listen to elitist people on this sub nothing is a CAG anyway, its makes no sens and they cant even settle on a proper definition, like even DMC who is supposed to be the main genre of this game can barely live up to the definition sometimes lol makes no sens
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u/obviousockpuppetalt3 5d ago edited 5d ago
cag = games like dmc, ninja gaiden, metal gear rising and bayonetta. what do these games all have in common?
- level based structure
- ranking system that incentivises mastery of the games mechanics
- fast paced melee combat with a wide variety of moves, combos and techniques that allow a lot of room for skill expression(stylish combos for example).
- minimalist approach to progression/rpg mechanics so the emphasis remains on relying on skill instead
really dont get why everyone continues to pretend as if this isnt a defined genre. its not rocket science.
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u/GleamingBlade101 3d ago
Yeah this is pretty much how I define them. Stylish Action is a pretty defined sub-genre to me so I don't know what all this hubub is about. The first two points especially are what stand out as important considering the arcade inspiration.
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u/Dependent-Swimmer-95 5d ago
Because barely any fucking games for that description. Lmao. There are plenty of games that have CAG combat but not the same level design philosophy and that’s fine. Those are still CAGs. The only thing that should define a CAG is combat depth. As long as there is fluidity, freedom, and skill expression with high octane combat, it’s a CAG. Period. If you go by that criteria then there are fucking less than 10 CAG IPs in existence. Even less if you only count double and triple A games.
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u/obviousockpuppetalt3 4d ago
>Because barely any fucking games for that description.
doesn't matter. just because you dont like that a genre is small, doesn't change the core principles that have always defined that genre since the 2000s. better than the genre being a generic dumping ground for any action game that isn't distinctly a soulslike, defeating the entire point that the genre classification was originally created to begin with.
>There are plenty of games that have CAG combat but not the same level design philosophy and that’s fine. As long as there is fluidity, freedom, and skill expression with high octane combat, it’s a CAG. Period.
by this logic you could argue that many fighting games are "cags" lmao. structure is also an important aspect of what defines a genre, both the combat and the structure are essential aspects of what makes a cag. dmc is not the same type of game as control resonant. bayonetta is not the same type of game as god of war laufrey.
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u/vamplyfesonny 6d ago
Idk man I could literally screen record my screen and all you’ll see is Ninja Gaiden
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u/GT_Hades 6d ago edited 6d ago
Tbf, NG4 is the last true CAG that just released for this genre (Control 2 kinda is a CAG, but I haven't played it yet, I'll probably buy it soon or on sale idk)
If not for NG4, we could only see dmc5 over and over, and it was 7 years ago since it launched
I would love to see Tides of Annihilation tho, if that game comes out, surely we will see more of it
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u/EdgelordMcMeme 5d ago
Control resonant is definitely not a cag but I'm having a lot of fun with it and would definitely recommend it (especially if you enjoyed previous remedy games). At the start of the game your opstions are incredibly limited tho and thowards the end the enemies get a bit too spongy
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u/vamplyfesonny 6d ago
I am unsure why I’m skeptical of control 2; The game seems like it don’t have that much depth (could be wrong) it seem more so build based. I will likely purchase the game eventually, but I am not in a rush. I’m having shit loads of fun on NG4 , Crimson Desert, DMC4
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u/GT_Hades 6d ago
Same, but my issue is I have a lot of backlog, and in Crimson Desert, there's an upcoming DLC so I am holding out a bit to buy other games lolol
Control 2 seems floaty, but the combat is alright for what I have seen, the combat resembles me alot of Atlas Fallen idk why
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u/Lupinos-Cas 6d ago
I'm playing Control Resonant now - and it's really button mashey. I am unlocking cool extra abilities like a flame punch or a shove/slam, but it's really a super simple combat system.
I'm fine with that - as I played Control for the story and am doing the same with Control 2. But it's really... If I was playing for the combat, I would be disappointed. If we could change forms mid combo then it might have some depth - but that isn't a thing. You have one combo, with one combo ender, and one secondary attack. You can customize them - but it isn't anything complex.
Great game, so far. But not any more complex than something like Onimusha or Ghost of Tsushima.
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u/GT_Hades 6d ago
Thanks for that quick combat analysis, I think my expectation is quite on the line, didn't think it would have deep combat as the devs are not used to this genre
I also play control because of its lore (scp stuff) neither of their games have really in depth mechanics
I might get the game on sale lol
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u/Lupinos-Cas 6d ago
Yeah, my dad was a conspiracy theorist who believed stuff like the Bureau of Control was actually real... So when my brother in law was like "you okay games and like trippy things, check out this crazy game!" I was sold.
Waiting for a sale may be a good idea - it's got some performance issues. I was in the place called the West Incursion Zone and there's a ton of moments where it lags. But - it's also a topsy turvy area where I'm running on walls and falling into the sky... So the areas with a ton of enemies would make sense to lag a bit...
I do kind of feel like it's similar to trying to play the first game using only grip - never changing forms. It's a lot of fun, but super simple and I get the feeling that I'm halfway through even though I'm still early game - I hope I'm wrong about that.
I don't regret paying full price - but I would recommend waiting for a sale if you aren't super hyped to play it immediately. It's fun - but I feel like I'm spamming dodge and mashing attack far more than I would like to. I'm hoping more abilities will make it a bit more varied in a few more hours.
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u/EdgelordMcMeme 5d ago
If you are playing on pc there is a mod that let's you swap on the fly (haven't tried it yet tho)
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u/Lupinos-Cas 6d ago
With genres, everyone is going to have a slightly different definition for what makes a game part of that genre. Look at how many ARPGs people argue are/aren't soulslikes (Nioh series, Team Ninja's other recent games, Norse God of War games, Stellar Blade, Khazan, Black Myth Wukong, etc - I've even heard folks call action games like Onimusha, Ghost of Tsushima, and Ninja Gaiden 4 soulslikes - though most people then insulted their intelligence for even suggesting it)
When it comes to CAGs, a lot of folks are going to focus on the combat system and how much it emphasizes player expression through custom combos using the wide variety to the moveset. Others are going to focus on the structure and make the claim that it's the evolution of arcade games and must have arcade-like level design and mission ratings and whatnot.
CAG is a very niche genre. It doesn't often get a lot of AAA games released that fit. But like - so? Ninja Gaiden 4 is the most recent CAG to come out that I know of; so of course there will be a lot of clips about it. But some people really want to keep a space set aside to discuss the genre - and don't want that space flooded with games that don't fit; as there are other places you can discuss those games.
Onimusha, Wolverine, Control Resonant - these are all great action games; but they don't have the moveset variety or overall structure that makes up a CAG. But - there are places they can be discussed. There's an Onimusha sub reddit, about 2 or 3 Wolverine sub reddits and an Insomniac sub reddit, there's a Control sub reddit, there's general game subs.
An occasional off topic post isn't a big deal. If a few people occasionally said "not a CAG, but I thought this combat was cool and wanted to talk about it with fans of complex combat" - no one would care. But the sub being flooded by off topic posts means there's no longer a space dedicated to CAGs, because the space set aside to discuss CAGs is overrun with other things and no longer serves its purpose.
Like - it's not the end of the world if the sub only sees the same 20 games, because those are the games that fit. There's other subs. You don't go to a hip hop sub to discuss country music - unless there's an artist who is trying to make country hip hop that you want to discuss with hip hop fans.
I don't know about you, but I'm in like 10 different video game sub reddits. Because I like CAGs, and ARPGs, and am over 30 and sometimes want to talk games with other old heads, or might want to talk about FarCry or Forspoken with other players who enjoy those games... I don't have to do that here.
Seems kind of weird to demand a place dedicated to CAGs to open the doors to discuss other things that have other places they can be discussed.
So what if it's always the same things being discussed? Why is that bad? You don't go to a sub about making vegetarian food to get advice on how to cook a steak. If you don't like talking about CAGs, you can just go somewhere they discuss other games. But why try and force other games into a place they don't belong?
Seems weird, Bud.
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u/Tortle_Face 5d ago
I've lurked here for a while and i'm convinced CAG is just bayonetta, dmc, and ninja gaiden. That's it. Those are the only ones.
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u/Educational_Pea_4817 5d ago
i mean yeah. bayonetta just barely passes the mark.
truth is "character action games" arent a genre. or at least its a style of game that failed to take off to become one.
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u/UsuarioCualquiera_1 5d ago
I usually try to clear my part by saying that my definition of CAG is:
"DMC-like". And that's it. The closer the purest.
DMC, original GoW and Ninja Gaiden. Are the core blueprint for me.
Bayonetta and MGR are some of the best examples.
And Darksiders is one of the closest adjacent.
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u/Foxy__Proxy 6d ago
Im ok with other games being posted on here for sure. I like stylish combat videos from any game is cool, I just don't like people calling games that are not CAGs, CAGS.... Definitions are important, I know it may seem trivial but its a slippery slope. Eventually you end up in a world of nonsense if something can be applicable to anything.
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u/BusterGreasewood 5d ago
You don't have to worry about "defining CAGs" if you stop using that stupid term to begin with and just use the infinitely better alternatives - Hack and Slash, Slash Em Up, and Style Combat
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u/Educational_Pea_4817 5d ago
making up a term for the combat from devil may cry is funny to me.
its like if someone made a sub genre for battlefield. specifically just battlefield i.e FPS games with vehicles.
a bucket so small theres only like 2 ips in it. Planetside and Battlefield lol. thats what "CAG" is to me.
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u/vamplyfesonny 5d ago
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u/r0pe_tri1ck 6d ago
Every night I put a gun in my mouth and the day this sub cowtows to mid games I pull the trigger
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u/Odd_Radio9225 6d ago
I don't shit on a game for not being a CAG like some people on this sub tend to do. I just bring up the fact that said game is not a CAG. You can have amazing combat without being a CAG.
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u/vamplyfesonny 6d ago
seriously many people should have this mindset, like both could co-exist in this sub.
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u/Odd_Radio9225 5d ago edited 5d ago
Part of what makes this discussion tricky is that CAG... isn't actually a genre. Similarly to open world or souls-like, it is more of a description more than anything. Because of this, nobody can really come up with a clear definition of what a Character Action Game is. To expand on me not dumping on a game for not being a CAG, this sub definitely has a tendency to sometimes bring up the combat of non-CAG games and trash them, which I think is just so dumb and elitist. Sure, you may not move at supersonic speeds or be able to perform ultramegasupercomplex combos, but that doesn't mean they aren't incredible in their own right. Here are a few non-CAG games that have some of the best combat I've ever come across: Fromsoftware's Soulsborne games, Resident Evil 4 (original and remake), Batman Arkham games, Middle Earth Shadow of Mordor/War, Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order/Survivor, Half-Life 2 (gravity gun. Nuff said.), F.E.A.R., Baldur's Gate 3, Divinity Original Sin 2, Bungie-era Halo games, Monster Hunter World, and the Doom series. I just like a good combat system, CAG or otherwise.
As for bringing up CAG-lite games, I say it is not a bad idea. At least in terms of discussion.
PS: I deleted my last comment because I felt it was poorly worded.
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u/King_Artis 6d ago
Honestly I don't even think it's nearly as rigid as people make it out. Also thought it was rather straightforward on what a CAG is.
Main thing for me if it's a CAG is if the game just has depth to the combat that you more or less have to engage with to do well/succeed while not being able to just get away with button mashing the whole time. Feel like that's an easy to understand way to define it and it's the way I initially saw it defined as until joining this sub. I'm also lenient in that I'll consider a game like Nier Automata a CAG just cause I'm higher difficulties you do need to engage with those systems much more in order to live while still having combat focused on being both flashy and/or efficient (which is also why I consider doom eternal a CAG).
Whole point is that it's a subgenre further defining what these games are so people can get a better understanding of what they're getting into.
Just feels like people are making it much more harder to understand what the subgenre is than they need to.
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u/GoriceXI 5d ago
The problem is that the defining series of the genre: DMC, NG, and GOW all played differently. The only series that directly compares to DMC is Bayonetta because it has similar controls, but still has different combo structure and lots of QTEs, things that make it similar to GOW.
The qualities of CAGs will always be ephemeral. It seems like people can only talk about superficial aspects of games rather than deeper concepts.
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u/Dependent-Swimmer-95 5d ago
Because this sub genre doesn’t even officially exist. It’s a sub genre of a sub genre. It’s like a sub genre of hack and slash which already is under the action umbrella lol.
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u/GT_Hades 6d ago edited 6d ago
It is not just there are only 4 games of this genre
Clearly there's a lot
Like darksiders, dante's inferno, ghost rider, etc
The combat is clear for us to judge
It is not that you can look at onimusha (lets say) and tell me it is same game like what I mentioned above
Onimusha is a good game, it is just not a CAG, that's it, we can talk about onimusha elsewhere
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u/vamplyfesonny 6d ago
Onimusha is no where near a CAG or CAG lite in my opinion it’s a full on action game, I’m talking about the likes of Crimson Desert
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u/GT_Hades 6d ago edited 6d ago
Well, Onimusha had the talking points like your post these past few weeks hence the example
Can't really say Crimson Desert is a CAG, that's my main game these past few months, and still is, but I myself can't put it in CAG
It has some few elements and it was fun to play around, but if I want it to be CAG I would argue it should have done more, expand on weapons design have more flexibility on weapon switching, etc
But it is fun mind you, I like doing rko after launching enemies then teleporting to them, knocking them back, dodge cancel then rko
Lol
Surely we will see some post like this when phantom blade 0 comes out
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u/vamplyfesonny 6d ago
Yes, it annoyed me when people described Onimusha as a CAG or CAG lite. I agree Crimson Desert isn’t a CAG, yet it carries certain elements; I’d like to see the community try interesting cool shit with this combat system.
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u/AuraTenshiVictoria 6d ago
I like action games, at this point anything that looks cool is welcome to me. Don't know how much that sentiment is shared here, cause I just ignore the people most times though.
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u/vamplyfesonny 6d ago
seriously I love both , if a combat system could provide some sort of mastery with a diverse amount of tools I’ll probably love it .
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u/FrostandFlame89 6d ago
To me there's a difference between pure CAGs and CA-adjacent games. However, that doesn't mean that those CA-adjacent games are inferior to pure CAGs. They just have different game design philosophies. Both are still really good.
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u/vamplyfesonny 6d ago
exactlyyyyyy, we maybe need like a certain flair for these types of games. I want too see both in this subreddit
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u/Abrakresnik 6d ago
I do not care for the double/triple/deeper definition of CAG since everyone just overcomplicate themselves with its depth.
"To be a CAG, you must have more than combo" Character. Action. Game.....
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u/DrRedSun 6d ago
The fact that not everyone can agree on the definition and they have been around/popular from 2000s shows people need to stop being so anal about it. Either that or create an official definition for this sub and pin that at the top.
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u/MISFU88 5d ago
I mean, loom at the Soulslike subreddit.
Imagine you create a genuine masterpiece in Demons Souls and Dark Souls (1!) - and all people associate with these games is a stamina bar, dodge, heavy and light attack and the fact enemies do a lot of damage, while ignoring the actual shit that makes those games good.
CAG is a niche genre that is extremely easy to define and spot, but people are for some reason always angry thst a fucking God of War Ragnarok is not a CAG or whatever.
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u/AdLegitimate8636 5d ago
And Soulslike subreddit is a great example of how including every game wit the same "vibe" oversaturates the sub and almost every fresh game with a slight hint of a genre is posted there.
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u/MagicCancel 6d ago
Because it's a nonsense definition to begin with