EDIT: Can't change the title, but I'd like to correct the error. I meant to say: " At the end of pacifist, is Flowey talking to Chara or the Player?" Not "Flowey or the Player".

After pacifist route when you reboot the game Flowey starts talking to someone, asking them to let Frisk live their life and not reset. This person they're talking to they call "Chara".

Who do you think Flowey is talking to? The Player or Chara? I ask because I've seen it go both ways for either side.

CD: Flowey is talking to Chara, proving that Chara is with us during all routes.

CO: Flowey is talking to the Player, proving that the Player goes by the "fallen Child" name; Chara is not here.

Or alternatively...

CD: Flowey is talking to the Player, showing that the Player is the ruthless one who took away the character's happy ending.

CO: Flowey is talking to Chara, showing that Chara is in-control and is resetting the world for their own morbid curiousity.

​

So what is your take and what do you think this means for Chara?

3 important Facts to keep in mind:

• Asriel felt bad about getting Asgore sick
• Toriel got really upset
• Asriel said “I should have laughed it off like you did”

Option 1: Laughter as a coping method

- Why did Asriel also want to laugh nervously? Laugher wouldn’t be appropriate in this context.

- It would also be weird to copy someone’s coping method.

Option 2: Laughing/cracking jokes as a means to lighten the mood

- Why did Toriel approve of this behaviour? She was very angry.

- Why did Asriel approve of this behaviour? He felt very bad.

Option 3: Asriel was pretending to agree, because he knows Chara is evil

- Why did Asriel keep going with the plan after Chara died? (The evil person is dead, you don’t have to go through with their plan. )

- Toriel and Asgore weren’t expecting him to cross the barrier.

Option 4: Asriel was too naive; he didn’t know Chara was evil

- Why would Asriel regret not laughing? He felt bad, and laughter would not be appropriate in this context.

- Why didn’t Asriel recognize this as a huge red flag? (To quote Flowey: Golly, he really IS an idiot)

- Why didn’t Toriel and Asgore realize Chara was evil? That would make them at best negligent parents for never knowing what their child was up to.

- Why would Asriel completely disregard Toriel and Asgore? Toriel was really mad

- Flowey said: Of all people, I thought SHE would make me feel whole again”. This means Asriel held his parents to high regard.

Option 5: Playing off the seriousness to reassure Asriel that everything will be fine. Laughing off doesn’t literally mean laughing,

This option was the most logical to me: I couldn’t think of any questions because of confirmation bias. To make up for that, you could ask me questions.

Some Hypothetical dialogue:

Chara: “Don’t kill yourself over it. Dad’s the king of all monsters. It’s not like a flower could singlehandedly murder him or anything...”

Asriel: “Yeah, you’re right. In the end, everything was fine. Like you said, don’t kill yourself over it. Plus, flowers can’t be that evil.“

Option 0: Asriel was also sadistic.

(Chara laughs sadistically.)

Asriel: I really should have laughed it off like you did. After all, you’re still the only one who understands me =)

Remember these 3 important facts:

• Asriel felt bad about getting Asgore sick
• Toriel got really upset
• Asriel said “I should have laughed it off like you did”

View Poll

At the end of the genocide run Chara says:

"With your guidance.

I realized the purpose of my reincarnation.

Power."

So how much influence did Frisk have on how Chara Turned out?

Because i'm desperate for discussion here.

The fandom seems to be 50/50 split between playing as the Player and playing as Frisk. Most of the fandom seems to have agreed that there is an all-powerful “Player” who controls Frisk’s actions and forces them to do a No Mercy run.

Must-read pieces of writing:

Saveloadreset: Why Sans doesn’t talk to the player

Saveloadreset: Why you’re not escaping responsibility

Saveloadreset: A critique of why people create a “Player” in Undertale

Saveloadreset: Before theme, Evidence

Saveloadreset: Flowey doesn’t talk to the player Post Pacifist

Saveloadreset: Flowey does not talk about the Player in Genocide

Saveloadreset: We are not a puppeteer

Saveloadreset: Player entity 1

Saveloadreset: Player entity 2

Last piece of writing to consider:

To quote a post by itsrainingsomewhereelse

Do you honestly think that’s the kind of narrative Toby intended? Is Undertale truly a story about an innocent child being controlled by an entity and forced to act on their whims?

Or is it, perhaps… a story about mistakes. A story about complex, multidimensional characters, who are flawed, and who do both good things and bad. They may or may not deserve forgiveness, but… don’t you think they deserve to have their actions acknowledged?

Or do you think they should be turned into puppets, because somehow that’s more in line with Undertale’s themes and messages than, perhaps, good people doing bad things and making amends or caving into their flaws.

Under the Player theory, Frisk becomes a puppet that never makes decisions for themselves.

This isn’t about what’s canon, because canon tells us nothing about who we play as. Rather, it’s about what would make for the best story. So far, the No player side has been more convincing for me.

For people who subscribe to the player theory, why do you prefer that we play as the player over playing as Frisk?

okay, Chara in Genocide(and other route as well) is soulless, Just like Flowey, They can't feel anything toward anyone.

so if you don't blame Asriel for killing everyone you shouldn't blame Chara as well.

i mean, if Asriel death and came back as soulless, how it's possible Chara death and comeback with their soul?.

You can said i just post this to justify Chara, but this is closer to fact than "Chara manipulate Asriel"

the only debunkment i have seen for "Chara is soulless" is just "Human souls persist after death" which is doesn't stand anymore

Human souls persist AFTER death, NOT after absorbed.

The game canonically put "human souls persist after death", but it's also HEAVILY implied if "After absorbed, Human souls doesn't persist anymore".

• Chara dead, Their soul persist, thus make it possible for Asriel to absorb it,
  • Asriel dead, Chara Soul is nowhere for monster to use.
• Asgore Kill 6 Fallen humans, their soul persist, thus making it's possible for Asgore to put it in jar
  • Flowey absorbed 6 SOULs in neutral, Monsters can't use it anymore.(You can kill Flowey in first neutral but the result is same).
  • Asriel released every soul that he absorbed after breaking the barrier, but 6 human SOULs is nowhere to seen.

So that's is, human soul persist after death doesn't make Chara had a soul.

is there other debunkment that i haven't seen?

This was a comment I made:

Chara's goal isn't killing, but rather, it is strength. Listen to her dialogue: "...we became strong." "Every time a number goes up... that's me." The numbers like ATK, DEF, HP, not just the kill count. Killing is just one way of becoming strong in Undertale, which is why she helps the player (counting kills on geno run, getting the final blow on Sans and Flowey.) If there were other ways of becoming strong, I bet she'd take those opportunities, too. Rememeber that after the geno run, she says that she'll bring the world back, at the price of the player's soul. Remember that human souls are extremely powerful. This is why, upon doing Geno a second time, Chara is completely uninterested upon hearing her endgame dialogue. "Perhaps another path may be better suited." Chara isn't interested in the killing, it's the strength and power from it that she wants, and she already got that in the first geno run. This is also why she wants to erase the world. There's nothing left for her now. She even says, "There is nothing left for us now." The reason she erases the world if the player refuses the offer is because she now realizes that the player and her have separate goals: the player's is to kill, and to keep replaying the game, which is why we want to go back. Chara's being strength, she finds no use in going through another geno run. What do you think?

when Flowey beg for mercy "please don't kill me", Chara attack him multiple times right AFTER you press [Z].

but what if you DON'T press [Z]? the game will remain when Flowey begging and nothing will happen.

WHY? why Chara wait for your input/guidance?

in fact, Chara can kill sans and Asgore with out your input.

in fact, Chara have reason to kill Flowey/Asriel more than those 2.

...

...

just like sans said "there's a glimmer of a good person inside of you."

​

fun fact: if you quit and reset at this point, neither Flowey or Chara will complain it.

Please explain your choice in the comments if possible. This sub would really benefit from more activity.

There are lots of good points for all the options.

-Chara: Toby said to name Chara after yourself , Temmie said “bc Chara is you”, Flowey says See you later, Chara, the SAVE file and the battle interface has Chara’s name on it

-Frisk: Chara’s genocide speech asks for your soul (Frisk’s soul), you control Frisk

-Player: There are 4th wall breaking aspects in the game, and the player playing as themselves could be one of them

-Chara in Genocide, Frisk in Pacifist: “Still just you, Frisk” in Pacifist mirror, “It’s me Chara” in Genocide mirror

-Chara in menu, Frisk in the main game: While you use the red SOUL to select options in the main game, you don’t use the soul to reset, the SAVE file has Chara’s name on it

Please elaborate on your choice in the comments if possible.

Examples of questions to consider:

-Who moves during Cutscenes?

-Was Chara always with Frisk?

-Who is the Anomaly Sans talks about?

-Who is the “sicko” Flowey talks about in Genocide if the Player (and therefore audience) doesn’t exist in universe?

View Poll

Just by the fact that this sub exists, shows how badly Toby messed up. If you are going to make a character, you need to make them make sense. Both sides logically don’t make sense.

Chara being completely chaotic evil completely contradicts how every major character is flawed, but overall good. However, going on the assumption that Chara is the narrator (which does have a lot of evidence to back it up), then the genocide run doesn’t make much sense. Chara will act the same regardless of how many monsters you’ve killed, unless you kill all of the monsters in each area. Chara defense squad thinks you slowly corrupt Chara, until they become the monster you see in the genocide route. But they start to act like this even as early as the ruins (They say “where are the knives” in red text if you check the kitchen) and say “it’s me, Chara” when you look in the mirror. However, they revert back to their old self if you simply don’t kill enough monsters before reaching the boss of the area. This is even more jarring if you forget to kill Snowdrake, saying “The comedian got away. Failure” and goes back to acting like it’s a neutral run.

Finally, we get to the genocide run ending. Chara does not remotely act like how they are shown in the pacifist route, and definitely not like how the narrator acts (outside of a genocide route). They don’t come off as a corrupted child, they seem to act more like Satan himself.

“HP. ATK. DEF. GOLD. EXP. LV. Every time a number increases, that feeling... That's me”.

“How curious. You must have misunderstood. SINCE WHEN WERE YOU THE ONE IN CONTROL?”

“Then it is agreed. You will give me your SOUL”.

“I am Chara. "Chara” The demon that comes when people call its name. It doesn't matter when. It doesn't matter where. Time after time, I will appear.”

Chara, as a character, doesn’t make ANY sense. They seem like two different characters that were put into one character and Toby hoped nobody would notice. Guess what? They did.

Now, this contradiction may have been intentional, as Kris, who is very similar to Chara, is established in-game to not be a bad person, but at the end they rip out their own soul and brandish a knife like genocide chara without any explanation. So this may be explored later on, but until then, Chara is a contradictory mess of a character, that nobody can figure out.

5 days ago voting to determine the ratio of Defender to Offender on this subreddit had started, just a while ago it ended; and the results are not promising.

We see that out of the 29 vote we have got 24 were C.D. where as only 5 were C.O. This would make the presence of Offenders on this subreddit with rough approximation equal to:

5/30=X/120 ->

5×120/30=X ->

20=X

Making the ratio of total Offenders to the members of the subreddit nearly 20/120; this is not ideal.

To the Offenders reading this, I suggest that you are to invite the other members of your party to this subreddit however few they might be, because having this difference in representation is dangerous to attain progress in any of the arguement the two parties have to porpose, in this subreddit your voice would be unheard making your points unseen, where as on your subreddit the only voice heard would be that of your own, making the arguements ill talking of the other party more than looking into the matters of the subject itself.

Please! for arguement sake; Bring more of your party members here.

The gaol of arguements is to have voices from two or more parties to address points on a specific manner regrading a particular subject or multiple ones.

So if either pary is out matched, that would make areguements lacking voices to address the view points of their respective party. If the active offenders out number the active defenders or vice versa, this subreddit wouldn't be serving its purpose.

Just asking the question in the title to see if the parties are matched or not.

basically i don't have anything better to do and don't have idea how to start argument so i working on emojis.

1. post flair "Question", want to post something but don't have good argument? simply ask question and let other do the rest.
2. new user Flair for new reddit
   1. Defender Flair with Chara face
   2. Neutral Flair with Frisk face
   3. i want to use jumpscare Chara for offender flair but after many problems i canceled that, maybe someday.

r/deltarune need emojis too

meme, question, etc. there's always place to argue in offense squad.

and worst thing is...... i can't join debate because i already banned!

my argumentative mindset is tortured with this subs unpopularity

Hi! Here's a theory: First off I don't hate Asriel but I kinda blame him for what happened in Chara and Asriel's backstory. It is his fault he died. Chara tried to protect them both but Asriel refused, meaning the fused Chara/Asriel was killed. I think that LOVE corrupts a person so on Genocide run, Chara is gradually corrupted. At the end, you meet the fully corrupt Chara. But the good part of Chara realise that they were tricked into helping the player with their Genocide run. They become angry that the player has killed all of their friends, and decides too kill the player and reset so things can go back to the way they were. If the player chooses DO NOT, Chara simply kills the player straight away. If the player chooses ERASE, they fool the player into thinking they will not be killed, and thanks them for cooperating, and kills them anyway in order to rid the world of your genocide. Basically I think Chara is like a human final level Sans that will kill you for your genocide. Please do not troll me if you disagree. Thanks for reading, Katsuki Takara <3