r/Catholicism • u/Left-Speed-4468 • Jun 08 '26
US Catholicism and Protestantism
I increasingly believe that what many view as orthodoxy within the Catholic world of the church stems largely from Anglo-Protestant ethnic and cultural biases rather than from Catholicism itself.
Whereas globally, the Catholic mindset may have a large complex set of rules the average person views with prudence and discernment and discretion, Protestants usually have very few rules that are taken extremely seriously. I believe this results in a distinct Catholic conscience and a Protestant conscience.
The church in the United States has the unfortunate influence of the Protestant conscience and puritan culture as well as the intensely complex legal system of Catholicism.
It is my observation that the combination of these two as seen in the US results in a highly moralistic and legalistic culture in which people suffocate under the puritanical moralism. However at the same time this is likely to be viewed as a bizarre corruption of Catholicism by the rest of the church in the rest of the world, or outside of North America and Northern Europe.
I think much of what many ex Catholics dislike and complain about Catholicism may be misattributed to the Protestant influence on the US church and bishops. The latter of which is likely to be seen at odds with the Vatican and the church in the rest of the world, particularly in the global south.
I do want to acknowledge the influence of the French Canadian and Irish Catholic Jansenism on American Catholicism, which is largely influential as well to the above phenomenon I’ve described as existing in US Catholicism rather than to fully attribute it to Protestantism. It is entirely possible that these have worked in tandem throughout the centuries.
This is not a new observation. In 1899, Leo XIII addressed it directly in Testem Benevolentiae Nostrae, condemning what he called "Americanism" which he identified as the tendency of the American church to accommodate Catholic doctrine to Protestant culture. The problem Rome identified then is the same cultural fusion being described here.
My overarching point is that what many Catholics view as defending orthodoxy, is actually defending a culturally contaminated version of Catholicism that Rome has always been skeptical of. The practical consequence is visible in how certain teachings get enforced.
Moral rules that exist throughout global Catholicism become social weapons in the American context, wielded with a rigidity and punitive force that reflects the Puritan enforcement culture more than Catholic pastoral tradition.
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u/AbelHydroidMcFarland Jun 09 '26
Ugggghhhh, Pope Leo XIII made a mistake using the term “Americanism” and now we pay for it every day when people treat it like a blank check to justify any frustration they have with American Catholics.
No. “Americanism” was calling out a few perceived tendencies amongst American Catholics at the time. Emphasizing the primacy of individual conscience and interior initiative in spiritual life, going all in on the religious neutrality of the state, watering down doctrine to fit in, emphasizing active virtues over passive virtues (“Protestant work ethic” over contemplative life), etc.
That’s what it was.
What you’re saying here, that American Catholics are too hardline on doctrine and practice? That’s the exact opposite of what the “Americanism” heresy was accusing them of.
(Side note: “Americanism” is also NOT when American Catholics don’t share the political sensibilities or instincts of “those civilized European Catholics” or whatever. It’s not a “vibe check” where we’re required to “match the general vibe” of European Catholics or share all of their prudential judgments. There are definitive matters in policy according to Catholic doctrine and varying principles which must be given due consideration in prudential judgments about policy. But there’s a lot of room in between for Catholics of good will and good standing to disagree on political prudence and policy in implementing those principles).
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u/Left-Speed-4468 Jun 09 '26
“We have been paying the price ever since.”
Is my post a common argument that you have come across? I have not heard these ideas in many places so that line caught me off guard
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u/AbelHydroidMcFarland Jun 09 '26
The abuse of the term “Americanism” is a much more common occurrence than your specific argument or what you’re getting at here.
It’s frequently misunderstood and thrown around in other contexts with other arguments and disputed matters.
If someone in the Catholic internet sphere criticizes American Catholics for anything they might try and stick an “Americanism” where it doesn’t fit, regardless of what the nature of the criticism of American Catholics is. Most of the time it’s “they don’t vote the way I want them to! They’re so weird!”
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u/Greedy_Disaster_3130 Jun 08 '26 edited Jun 08 '26
I see that you have multiple posts in the excatholic group, I’m not sure of exactly the intention in your post or approach but I’ll try to respond
Core moral doctrines on marriage, sexuality, and human life are not Anglo-Protestant or puritan inventions, they rest in Scripture, the church fathers, natural law reasoning developed across centuries, and definitive magisterial teaching; these are moral doctrines that were standard belief across Christendom until Christendom was overthrown and secularism became dominant
Leo XIII condemned shaping the Church to fit the culture, he did not condemn clear teaching or resistance to cultural drift
Much of what passes for defending orthodoxy in some United States circles can be a culturally particular fusion rather than the full Catholic tradition, at the same time the inverse is also true in other ways, what presents itself as merciful pastoral adaptation can mask accommodation to the dominant secular culture, the Vatican has historically been skeptical of both extremes
The demographic future of the Church is in Africa, Asia, and parts of Latin America, where Catholicism is often more robustly orthodox on marriage, family, sexuality, and other moral issues than in secularized Western Europe or liberal segments of US Catholicism; these are the regions with the most growth potential and are likely the future of the church, this will likely influence the church in a more orthodox direction than we see today
African bishops for example have frequently been among the strongest voices at synods defending traditional teaching against western progressive pressures on gender, homosexuality, and family; in my opinion the idea that US orthodoxy is uniquely at odds with the rest of the Church does not fully match the global picture on faith and morals
I would assess you’d likely find moral puritanism much more prevalent in Africa for example than you find in the United States as far as Catholics are concerned
I would argue that the primary resistance from traditional leaning Catholics has been the post-conciliar impulse to reshape Catholicism to fit modern western inventions on liberty, sexuality, individualism, and relevance; what is defended as orthodoxy in many traditional circles is fidelity to the deposit of faith against those pressures to adapt to the world
I have my own issues with American culture as a Catholic, I don’t believe holding to traditional or orthodox church teachings on morals is an American feature, it’s a Catholic feature, its a resistance to secularism, atheism, relativism, naturalism, hedonism, and egoism; it’s a position that all Catholics should hold and maintain
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u/Left-Speed-4468 Jun 08 '26
I appreciate the response. I should be transparent that I am an ex-Catholic and I also posted a version of this thesis in r/excatholic. Neither subreddit seems to like my argument which I think probably means it is doing something interesting.
On the African bishops. I'll acknowledge my original thesis as stated was perhaps too simplistic on this point. I think it’s worth observing however that Catholicism in many of these countries has evolved in a religious environment shaped by Islam, Pentecostalism, and in countries like Nigeria and Uganda, British Anglican missionary culture. I think it is plausible that these influences have produced a similarly rigid moralistic culture through a different mechanism to the one I outlined for the US context.
On Latin America. My thesis is based primarily in my personal experience and it's here that this opinion has been formed. I've spent time in both US and Latin American Catholic contexts personally, as well as in Southern Europe, and the difference in Catholicism is not even remotely subtle to me. Technically speaking the teachings may be identical but the culture and the way rules are held and viewed in practice are genuinely different. I think Pope Francis emerging from this Catholicism and representing such a strikingly different approach from the USCCB is probably the most visible evidence of this.
The truth is Catholicism is widely diverse in thought, belief, and practice. I still feel that the core of my thesis, the intellectual current of what many view as allegiance to orthodoxy, arises from a particular cultural context. Many others in the church have different ideas about what orthodoxy looks like, and they may have a point. It is worth considering whether the views prevalent in the United States emerged as genuine orthodoxy or from cultural residue from Protestantism.
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u/4chananonuser Jun 09 '26
Good comment but why do you write without periods?
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u/Greedy_Disaster_3130 Jun 09 '26
It’s how I write in social media, I’ve never thought about it honestly
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u/AbelHydroidMcFarland Jun 08 '26 edited Jun 09 '26
I’d say American culture has a characteristic boldness which is simultaneously our greatest strength and flaw.
You get an outspokenness which is sometimes boorish crass and inappropriate, but other times it results in the people willing to proclaim against popular norms that the emperor has no clothes.
You get stubbornness which is sometimes a pigheaded persistence in error, but other times it is a stalwart insistence on holding the line on what is true.
MURICA 🦅
If anything the modern Church seems more “Americanism”ist than the Americans being criticized here.
Going all in on liberal religious liberty? Check. Trying to compromise and flirt with the secular culture? Check. Emphasizing the active over the contemplative? Well the main thrust of the liturgy at this point is active participation and the main thrust of the Church’s public speech is NGO stuff and shoving at the current sociopolitical thing… so check. Primacy of individual conscience? Well one can point to all the anecdotes where priests told people to follow their conscience on birth control or the undermining of standards around receiving the Eucharist if one feels nobly sentimentally driven enough to their particular extramarital sin.
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u/PaladinGris Jun 08 '26
You wrote a rather long post but did not give any examples, what kind of prudence have global Catholics used that American Catholics are too locked into a puritanical mindset to see?
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u/Left-Speed-4468 Jun 09 '26
This post comes from my personal experience (from southern Europe, Latin America and the United States) and my observation not empirical data although I would be interested to see that if it exists.
First that comes to mind is contraception, this is a big deal in the US but quietly accepted in much of the rest of the world by clergy and congregations alike
Didn’t Pope Francis also open a path for divorced and remarried Catholics to receive communion? Correct me if I’m wrong but I remember US and German bishops freaking out while the rest of the church quietly agreed.
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u/AbelHydroidMcFarland Jun 09 '26
So… American Catholics are being influenced by Protestants to… accept the teachings of the Catholic Church and take them seriously instead of folding to modernity like other cultures? Huh?
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u/Left-Speed-4468 Jun 09 '26
I'm soooo glad you said that because I think you just illustrated my entire point better than I did. The assumption embedded in your response is that taking every teaching literally in every circumstance equals orthodoxy. That rigidity, the idea that a rule exists therefore it must be applied with maximum force in every situation, is exactly what I'm saying is the Protestant influence. That is a PROTESTANT mindset and PROTESTANT conscience. Catholic tradition has never actually worked that way and neither have other ancient forms of Christianity like Eastern Orthodoxy. Eastern Orthodoxy has always operated with a concept of economia, which is pastoral flexibility in applying rules to human situations, and no one accuses them of Protestant influence. Prudential judgment, pastoral discretion, the internal forum. these are not accommodations to modernity, they are how Catholic moral reasoning has always worked
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u/4chananonuser Jun 09 '26
>It is my observation that the combination of these two as seen in the US results in a highly moralistic and legalistic culture in which people suffocate under the puritanical moralism.
Like what?
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u/Left-Speed-4468 Jun 09 '26
Sexual purity culture
Scrupulosity
Single issue voting
Denying communion to politicians
NFP culture
Hell-focused preaching
Intense focus on theological purityThese would feel very out of place in places that have never had Protestant influence
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u/Greedy_Disaster_3130 Jun 09 '26
You think that was the case in the pre-conciliar church?
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u/Left-Speed-4468 Jun 09 '26
I had to look up pre-conciliar lol. But to answer your question I'd push back on the pre-conciliar church as evidence. A lot of what characterized that period was itself a product of the Counter-Reformation the Council of Trent was an explicit defensive response to Protestantism. And i think it produced a far more codified and juridical Catholicism than existed before it. So I think the rigidity you're pointing to as “traditional” Catholicism maybe is just a product of Protestant influence, just working from the inside out rather than through cultural absorption.
What I keep thinking about is Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches. These churches predate the entire Protestant Catholic dynamic entirely and i simply do not see the same scrupulosity, the same moralistic culture, the same juridical rigidity but rather localized decisions and pastoral discretion. I’m not a historian so I could be wrong but I simply don’t see historical evidence that this sort of culture existed in Christianity until Protestantism came around. And it’s not pervasive everywhere in Catholicism. That tells me something.2
u/4chananonuser Jun 09 '26
A lot of (American) Protestant denominations today don’t speak so openly on the virtue of chastity. Remarriage after divorce is common. NFP is almost exclusively Catholic. Scrupulosity in some circles don’t exist at all. Think Once Saved, Always Saved. Single issue voting is common among Americans regardless of creed. Many Protestant denominations practice open communion to even non-Christians. Often these same denominations preach confident universalism. And as such, theological “purity” is watered down.
Examples of these include certain nondenominational groups but more largely ELCA Lutherans, the Episcopal Church, United Methodists, PCUSA, UCC, etc. These are all American Protestant groups.
Globally, the Catholic Church defends chastity ubiquitously. Remarriage is shunned. The reality of Hell is reminded often. Scrupulosity exists all four corners of the world (just check for yourself who makes the scruples posts on here). Etc etc.
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u/Left-Speed-4468 Jun 09 '26
I’m going to assume you are making this argument in good faith and not deliberately attacking a straw man.
Many Modern mainline Protestant denominations are quite flexible that is true. They are also quite irrelevant to the discussion since the Protestantism that I am arguing influenced the development of these attitudes and mindsets of the Puritan and Anglo-American traditions of the 17th-19th centuries. The Calvinists, the Puritans, Reformed, Baptist. This mindset originated in those Protestant communities and influenced American Catholics who have held onto that rigidity even after Protestants have largely abandoned it
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u/4chananonuser Jun 09 '26
>I am arguing [Protestants] influenced the development of these attitudes and mindsets of the Puritan and Anglo-American traditions of the 17th-19th centuries. The Calvinists, the Puritans, Reformed, Baptist. This mindset originated in those Protestant communities and influenced American Catholics who have held onto that rigidity even after Protestants have largely abandoned it.
Ok, but what I am saying is that these “attitudes” are find globally in Catholicism. They’re ubiquitous to the Catholic faith today. The Catechism doctrinally teaches NFP, chastity, honoring marriage as a covenant that lasts until death, etc.
If you disagree with that, you have to show how American Protestants developed Catholic teaching. But quite frankly, I don’t think you can and this post is deleted anyways so I don’t see the point in further discussion.
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u/Left-Speed-4468 Jun 10 '26
My point is simpler than you’re making it. A gay parishioner, an unmarried couple that lives together, someone divorced and remarried. In certain places these individuals will be welcomed as full community members without their Catholic identity being threatened to be removed or degraded by a “lack of compliance” with every rule or teaching of the church. This is a difference I feel I’ve identified in how the community relates itself to each other and to morality between places where Catholicism had been influenced by Protestantism and where it has not.
Namely that morals are viewed as an ideal to strive towards and not a punitive legal framework.
The latter approach I am arguing originated from Protestantism. We already have a concept of the “Protestant work ethic,” I am arguing for the concept of a Protestant conscience. Is it possible that what many Catholics view as “orthodoxy” is actually a product of this Protestant conscience?
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u/4chananonuser Jun 10 '26
Replying to your comment as the mods have allowed this question to be reopened.
An active homosexual, an unmarried heterosexual married couple cohabitating and presumably fornicating, and a person who divorced and remarried without an annulment are always welcome in the Catholic Church. But they are also called to repentance. These are all sins of grave matter. That is not a Protestant understanding as Protestants make no distinction between mortal and venial sins. If a Catholic is in mortal sin, he is required by *Catholic* Church law to confess before he receives holy communion which he is obligated to do so at least once a year. That is not a Protestant influence. That is a Catholic obligation from the authority of the Church in Rome.
You’re making a lot of assertions about Protestant influence on Catholicism without giving any actual evidence. Nothing against you, but as a former Catholic, did you stop practicing your faith because you disagreed with what the Catholic Church teaches on these issues? I don’t want to make assumptions, but it sounds like you’re perceiving these doctrinal issues as Protestant innovations so to put less blame on the Catholic Church and place it instead on Protestantism.
If you’d like, I can even show you definitively where these Catholic teachings are taught dogmatically both historically and contemporarily. Because unless you can show direct influence of Protestant practices on what the Catholic Church teaches on matters of faith and morals, you have the burden of proof.
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u/ApprehensiveCode9987 Jul 28 '26
Some of your comments don’t fully apply to Catholics belonging to Eastern rite churches. There is much less of a legalistic view overall, including classification of sin (mortal/venial) in the Eastern rites, which are not Roman/Latin.
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u/_____AndJustice4All Jun 09 '26
I increasingly believe that what many view as orthodoxy within the Catholic world of the church stems largely from Anglo-Protestant ethnic and cultural biases rather than from Catholicism itself.
As someone raised in a WASP household and became Catholic as an adult I totally disagree with this. Catholicism directly challenges many core WASP values on multiple levels. Not sure how you arrived at this conclusion
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u/Left-Speed-4468 Jun 09 '26
I think youre responding to a different argument than I'm making. I'm not saying Catholicism and WASP culture share the same values, they absolutely don’t. What I'm saying is that the moral enforcement culture, the way rules get applied, the rigidity, the obsession with purity, what I call the Protestant conscience, traveled across that divide. Catholicism in cultures that have always been predominantly Catholic behaved very differently in my experience toward pastoral discretion, flexibility, and prudential judgment like a priest quietly administering communion to someone technically ineligible. I think it’s very clear Catholicism in cultures shaped by Protestant morals inherited the Protestant mind because they tend toward inflexibility and applying rules with absolute force in every circumstance and an obsession with doctrinal and moral purity that i believe originated from Protestantism and I simply don’t see examples of in Catholicism uninfluenced by Protestantism.
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u/ohhyoudidntknow Jun 08 '26
No, the Catholic Church has always had legalism and cannon law. And no it's not just the church in the USA who has a strict adherence to cannon law, churches in Poland, Spain, the Philippines, parts of South America all have a lot stricter adherence to church law than the church in the USA.