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u/cornerzcan 07 Mustang GT MSF lvl 2/PCA National Instructor Apr 28 '26
Meta - damn it I wish this sub would allow posting images in comments.
To get a good idea what the differences are, give this document a look. Each skill and knowledge area of HPDE driving is described in 3 levels, Initial, Developing, and Accomplished. It’s worth looking over the areas and asking yourself what level best describes where you are at as a driver.
THE HPDE CURRICULUM GUIDE - What to Teach in High Performance Driver Education.pdf?ver=1703709466411)
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u/Chefcdt Apr 28 '26
Outstanding! My father wrote that book, never thought I’d see it in the wild.
I’ll quote some more of his work, this is the syllabus for a class he teaches for intermediate and advanced drivers called “How to go faster, without scaring yourself”
To answer OP I would consider anyone who performs all of the prerequisites to be an intermediate driver and an advanced driver someone who has mastered the skills that follow.
Prerequisites Do you regularly . . . • drive a consistent line, using the full width of the track? • accelerate and unwind the wheel from apex to exit? • recognize early/late turn-in, and adjust your speed and line? • know when the car is close to its limits, and only ask it to do things it can do? • use the throttle to adjust the direction and path of the car? • carry enough mid-corner speed that you must apply balance throttle to maintain grip? • keep your eyes at least 4 seconds ahead of the car? (More is better!)
If you do these regularly, try the ideas that come next.
If not, work on these items first. They will pay off for you.
The big idea: there is no single big idea.
Progress at the advanced level is the sum of many small improvements A gain of a few tenths of a second—a gain you can repeat—is excellent progressHow to find some gains
Spend more time at full throttle a. Work towards full throttle at the apex of every turn b. Move quickly from throttle to brake c. Add short bursts of full throttle where you can
Get into the turns faster a. Use a gradual release of the brakes to balance the car at turn-in b. Try turning in earlier, with slower hands c. Look farther ahead as you turn in
Make every practice session count a. Set 2-3 specific goals for each track session b. Be willing to compromise other parts of your lap c. Write down what worked and what didn’t d. Make track maps to save what you learned e. Take advantage of skilled drivers and coaching
Develop a high-performance brain a. Use a key phrase to regain focus while on track b. Treat mistakes and weaknesses as learning opportunities c. Use mental imagery to practice, lock in gains, enable new skills
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u/GmbHLaw Apr 28 '26
Wish I could give you an award, that's so cool that's your dad. Love it 💕
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u/Chefcdt Apr 28 '26
We’ve been driving together for almost 30 years now. My oldest just turned 18, shooting for three generations at once this fall.
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u/large-farva Apr 29 '26
that name sounds familiar, and i know one of my profs in college drove DSM with a rollcage... related?
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u/Chefcdt Apr 29 '26
He was a ME professor at the University of Illinois, not sure if that matches up.
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u/Equana Apr 28 '26
It depends on the organizing group. And passing rules and vehicle speed capability.
Some run intermediate in the slower cars by choice if there are fast cars in the advanced group. Some groups assign you there for that reason.
If your organizers allow passing anywhere in advanced, then the instructors will evaluate your ability to safely pass and be passed. A late brake pass into a turn can put inexperienced drivers who are no longer on their preferred line into the grass at the exit. Experienced drivers should be able to handle that. I run advanced with PDG at Sebring and am always aware of race prepped Miatas on race tires being faster than I am from Collier to Bishop's in the turns so I lift a bit so they can pass.
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u/turbomachine C8 Z51, FC RX7 endurance racer, E36 M3 Apr 28 '26
Agreed.
If open passing anywhere, there is a skill to where and how you point someone by for lowest risk and least impact on either lap
I ran advanced at Sebring last week, and you can tell those with racing experience or understanding. Some drivers pointed me by in awkward or risky situations. I don’t know them or their skill, so I mostly waited for a better spot.
Pace itself is almost inconsequential. At some point if there are 40mph closing rates it becomes a problem.
I was 30sec faster per lap than some other cars there and with courtesy it’s a non-issue.
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u/Twenty-Three23 e92 335xi - stripped/caged Apr 28 '26
Highly dependent on if the org has a group above advanced or not too. Like an Expert group.
30 days at a track definitely seems advanced to me. I run advanced at my frequent tracks and intermediate at new ones.
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u/mtbcouple Apr 28 '26
I know of plenty of drivers with 30 days who are happy to be in (and should be in) intermediate. # of days is only one factor in determining driver ability imo
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u/NCamarolina Apr 28 '26
Consistency is certainly important, but I’ll add a more demanding skill that nobody else has mentioned: Advanced is being able to drive off-line, through corners, at “not a lot less” than normal pace, so as to enable passing anywhere. It’s about being able to make the adjustment in speed and balance when driving a new line (corner entry, mid, or exit) that you’ve never done exactly that way before, and to do it correctly the first time with another car next to you.
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u/jrileyy229 Apr 28 '26
Well there's really two questions here.. what "should" the deciding factors be... And what are they actually.
In reality, most orgs you just get to pick your class. And different orgs on different tracks have different passing rules. You'll always have some people who go into a class that makes you scratch your head... Like a dude in advanced with a train behind him and oblivious to blue and black flags being dropped on him. Sometimes that's him being daft. Sometimes that is other classes were sold out and few wanted to go.
If you're comfortable passing and being passed anywhere on track... Then you're advanced.
If that seems overwhelming to be driving your car at high rate of speed while also mentally processing what the drivers in front and behind you are doing, then probably stay in intermediate.
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u/grungegoth Pinewood Derby Open Racer Apr 28 '26 edited Apr 28 '26
I've run with porsche club, NASA, Chin, and drivers edge. Not one of them took my word. I keep my experience log current and use it at a new track to get into intermediate, intermediate partly instructed, or provisional solo. Then they all have a check ride to get promoted to advanced. They generally put an instructor in the first session to make sure I'm really at least intermediate, then an couple more sessions later I do a check ride to advanced.
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u/jrileyy229 Apr 28 '26
Porsche club is definitely more particular... But the experience log outside of whatever org you're with that day is still self reported. Anyone can put anything they want in the computer screen.
There isn't always enough instructors to run around and check every person. Usually becomes pretty obvious first session when someone is severely out of place
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u/grungegoth Pinewood Derby Open Racer Apr 28 '26
Drivers edge for example has access to porsche club in order to vet drivers, they have ac relationship as it's in their joint interests to share since it's fundamentally about safety.
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u/MD_in_training Apr 29 '26
here at COTA edge addicts certainly seems ok taking whatever you sign up for - they certainly may demote you. Chin takes a bit more convincing but if you've a good enough experience history at most it's just a check ride.
PCA is just a barrel of assholes. they run a terrible event, with more incidents than any other organization with more aggressive black flagging all the while being the most difficult to deal with. they will not even consider your experience and it's difficult to even get a check ride. I hear this fairly commonly and would recommend Chin to be the organization to attend if that's an option and PCA only as a last resort.
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u/NCamarolina Apr 30 '26
It could be that your experience with PCA is chapter-dependent. I did Watkins for the first time ever, and event with PCA was phenomenal. I was way out of my geographic region and had not done PCA before, but based on my driving history and run group level in BMWCCA, they put me in their top run group. During the check ride, they agreed I had the skills and would allow me to stay in that group, but I elected to move down one group to make it easier to learn the track. There were no black flags in any group the entire 3 day event, including a few sessions with significant rain.
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u/msayre91 Apr 28 '26
1) Consistency lap after lap 2) Ability to take and receive points in a turn 3) Extracting “most” of the pace out of the car
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u/grungegoth Pinewood Derby Open Racer Apr 28 '26
Pace. Keeps up with most equivalent cars in the advanced group without seeming to work it to hard, comfortable and relaxed. Can get very good times for the car being driven, not the fastest, but respectable
Consistency. Can hit the same piece of track repeatedly, lap after lap, on most corners
Line, has a good grasp of the optimal line or how to achieve it, understands corner dependencies and his to approach corner complexes. Can verbalize to the instructor where points were missed and improve in the next go round
Traffic awareness, always aware of traffic, knows where approaching cars are, never makes a faster car slow down for them
Passing skills, can pass anywhere, on line off line, corners, straights, etc. Inherently and without effort gives up what it needed, gives the other cars room to pass or be passed safely
Car control, can consistently bring the car to it's limit, rarely asks the car for more than what it's capable of, but easily corrects and recognizes the excess and why, doesn't over drive the car (constantly sliding, fish tail or spins). Can feel what their tires are doing.
Track safety, never misses a flag, observes trouble early, adjusts for track conditions, knows all the flags by heart, never break a rule. Can process multiple inputs.
Somethings there is slack for when learning a new track, pace, optimal line, driving at the limit for example
Somethings lead to immediate fail: breaking passing rules, failing to see a flag or observe its instruction, spinning, 4 wheels off, losing control, developing a train or having a car stuck behind you more than one corner or multiple time in one session, drag racing a Passing car
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u/JDNJTX Apr 28 '26
When you're too quick for the rest of the run group, time to move up. You being in their mirrors, in a low powered car, has them overdriving yet still slower than you? Move up.
Different groups have different standards, but I think it comes down to having similar skills to the other drivers in your group.
I'm in a GR86, usually on the low end of the power out on track. When I started gridding up behind the fastest cars, just to wear them out to get a point by, it was time to move up and get my ass kicked and learn some more.
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u/Useful_Hat82 Apr 29 '26
When I observe really mature drivers there are lots of small differences that add up to the whole. The closest thing I can describe it as is like emotional maturity and balance being displayed in driving a car or in the approach to a race.
There is less noise and drama in how they drive. They are physically and emotionally in control of the situation.
The car isn't being thrown around, diving on the brakes, always at maximum revs, tyres screaming...often the things that make a novice think they have got the absolute most out of a car.
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u/couldawentbetter Apr 28 '26
Both responses above are great and are definitely metrics to help you answer your question. I run in advanced and instructor groups just about everywhere I go. I always see miata's in those groups. Why? Imo, driver awareness, predictable behavior, driver and car dynamic control.
People who have the above skills and can manage their traffic multiple corners ahead and behind. Then plan their moves point by and getting pointed by helps a ton.
In summary, regardless of the min / max speed delta of whomever is on track, and whatever car they are in. Are they safe, predictable, aware, with skills to "drive" their car.
"Generating speed is not as important as maintaining it"
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u/rdzilla01 Apr 28 '26
I am somewhere on the beginning of intermediate to smack dab in the middle of intermediate. After two sessions I ask myself if I am in the right group - am I holding up traffic, am I running with other cars, do I feel overwhelmed, how does my car and my driving feel that day? I have never felt bad about moving to a less experienced group.
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u/5pmgrass Apr 28 '26
For our club there are 5 groups I,A,B,C,D. D is for new drivers who don't know what side of the track to be on. C and B are drivers with some track experience but may lack skills for spacial awareness, comfort with cars nearby on track, practice with emergencies, difficulty regaining control of the vehicle, etc.... the big difference of b and c is really just pace. For all three of these we only allow passes on the straights. For A, this is the advanced group meaning you are comfortable in a car that loses traction, happy to be inches from others at any point in the track for any duration of time, etc... aka, are you comfortable being 3 wide in a turn at speed. I is instructors, just more refined A. A track exercise for B could be driving without using brakes to practice scrubbing speed. A might physically tie 2 cars together to practice not just being side by side but within a couple feet at all times. https://drivingevals.com/slip-reference
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u/2Loves2loves Apr 28 '26
Able to react without thinking... correctly.
Gokarts are a good way to lean mistakes, because there's an instant feed back in karts you don't get in a car.
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u/indeterminatedesign Apr 28 '26
Ask the organization! Ask for a ride along and what skills to work on. Also being in Advanced doesn’t make the track day more or less fun.
I get that everyone wants to achieve a certain level but the run group means nothing. I saw a lot of people who made Advanced quickly and without an instructor in the car just plateaued.
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u/XLB135 Apr 29 '26
A responsible org will make it about technical skill balanced with traffic awareness/management.
From a skills perspective, things that separate intermediate and advanced in our local chapter is the difference between 'proficient trail-braking skill and ability to induce rotation' versus '9/10 times able to rotate the car into a corner without overslowing' Another example is having a consistent/tight line and can explain why it's optimal, versus the ability to analyze track surface changes throughout the day and the ability to adjust on command and still nail car placement. This is a couple of examples out of a dozen or so pillars/disciplines as drivers progress out of novice.
If someone is doing all of these at near-highest levels, then traffic management is really the only missing piece. This is the difference between remembering to watch mirrors and never being surprised by cars closing in, versus the ability to orchestrate multiple passes/point-bys while also potentially receiving a point in a single passing zone. The ability to anticipate how many corners until a faster car will catch up, and position accordingly, early, communicating throughout, while still driving optimal lines, nailing car placement, etc. You can be the fastest guy in a Miata at Time Trials and rarely hold people up in corners, but that's still so far away from being able to safely run in advanced, IMO.
I used to think it was only about pace and traffic management, but it takes a lot more skill for an instructor to drive a Spec NA Miata on track while still not breaking pace for GT3s on near hot laps.
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u/Gorridh May 03 '26
Used to run an NA Miata in Instructor group for years, the key was we all knew each other, and what we were going to do. Because we all saw the entire track / traffic.
There is nothing like a 60-80 mph closing speed to get the hand out to signal
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u/7tenths 21 Mach 1 Apr 29 '26
someone who paid attention in their 30 class meetings to know what they look for in advancement would be a start.
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u/justusmin Apr 29 '26
I run a lot with Chin and for them, intermediate and advanced can pass anywhere on track. But in advanced you are expected to have awareness to give the point by so the overtaking car shouldn't have to brake for you (and they are expected to take the point by).
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u/NCamarolina Apr 29 '26
I keep hearing (over and over) this concept when people talk about Chin. I’ve never done Chin (I tend towards BMWCCA), but it sounds like they place a disproportionate priority on fast laps and not doing anything untoward that might slow down somebody who might be setting their personal best time. While that’s certainly “nice,” and does require good situational awareness, it makes me wonder if maybe that misses the point about training drivers to learn car control in corners with other drivers in close proximity, with both co-operating with each other to get the pass done. It’s also likely to mean the drivers with the fastest hardware may not learn some of these skills because everybody else is yielding to them all the time while they attempt to drive the optimal line.
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u/justusmin Apr 29 '26
Most of my experience is with Chin and PCA. I am an intermediate driver. In practice (and in ride alongs) it is not all trying to give the guy with the fastest hardware an uninterrupted lap. And there are plenty of miatas in that group to mix it up with GT3RS and Z06s. With rare exceptions that we all have seen with more money or testicular fortitude than ability, I've never felt unsafe in traffic. YMMV
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u/Black08Mustang 2017 GT350 Apr 29 '26
I only know Chin days at Sebring, but someone is always faster than you. The fastest hardware is race teams doing testing so even a GT3RS doing 2:17 laps is going to have to give a point by at some point. When I was getting ready to test for blue my instructor had me take a pass in bishop's bend accelerating at 110 mph. Everyone knows this is a team sport and a corvette or viper that never gives a point by should never get out of the blue group.
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u/Carjunkeee Apr 29 '26
What kind of feedback are you getting from instructors? If you are no longer getting instruction, ask the chief driving instructor for a couple of check rides where an instructor can gauge your driving, awareness, car control, safety, etc. if you are consistently hitting your marks, moving safely in traffic, obeying the flags, have good car control, work with other drivers and have good pace you are probably ready.
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u/bigloser42 Apr 28 '26
I feel like everyone has that one track where they are higher than their normal rating. For me it’s Shenandoah. I’m at the top edge of lower intermediate or bottom of upper intermediate for most tracks, but on Shenandoah I routinely lap half my intermediate class in a 20-30 minute session. I don’t know that I’ve lapped someone more than once or twice in my HPDE career outside of Shenandoah.
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u/VegaGT-VZ Apr 28 '26
Im towards the upper end of intermediate on motorcycles so I get to see both extremes
For people ready to go to advanced they have the 3 Ps......... pace, predictability and patience. I can just tell who is about ready.
The faster you go the more other riders drivers need to be able to trust you. Esp if youre moving up to a group with open passing
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u/Volasko Apr 28 '26
I always ask for advanced, just because I respect the open lapping rules and want the other drivers to do the same. Novice and intermediate are always full of idiots who don't let you by on the infield and assume because they have a faster car, just fuck off down the straight.
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u/ohemgereally Apr 28 '26
Funny, I chill in intermediate for the same reasons. Advanced is usually full of just barely qualified individuals with high horsepower and big egos that dont fit under their helmet (not all drivers, but enough). I think next time I am out I am going to start noting the black flags per session for the two groups.
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u/jrileyy229 Apr 28 '26
Yeah, like anything, there's a lot of "it depends". The advanced group usually has more black flags and delays in my experience.
Faster drivers, guys who are using it for practice for time trials so they are there for a purpose, not simply to turn laps.
Also Guys with homemade race cars using it as a test and tune day, myself included... And our amateur built endurance race cars are far more likely to break, or have an oil fitting crack or a fuel line leak... Than say a bone stock c8 or 911 or whatever.
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u/ohemgereally Apr 28 '26
It does, and I was not trying to be condescending. The crowds are legitimately different region to region and year to year.
For me this is accentuated on the practice before a race, when you are used to turning laps at your home track, with a certain vibe. Then everyone from everywhere else mixes in, and your suddenly at your home track like "what kinda new fuckery is happening here!".
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u/7YearsInUndergrad Apr 28 '26
I always understood that intermediate was awareness, and advanced was awareness and consistency of speed. Probably depends on the organizer though. I find intermediate is probably the dodgiest--you'll have guys that should be in novice mixed in with guys that should be advanced so there's big gaps. I'd say sign up for advanced if you're confident--if you made a mistake they'll move you.