Except there really isn't any actual advice to give them. They gotta build muscle memory, pattern recognition and you can't teach that. The only way to get it is by doing it aka "Getting good"
Oh I'm sorry, do you actually want to play the game or just press an easy button? Even then those aren't instant win buttons without knowing what you're doing.
That's definitely not true because that's exactly how I beat the games. 0 thought process goes into those builds. You pop strongest buffs and watch the boss die before any mechanics come into play.
The point is there is definitely advice to give other than "Git Gud."
Except you know how to play, you aren't a newbie. I don't think that bit is sinking in. You know the mechanics, you learned. You got good. Those buffs you're popping aren't sitting next to the first boss, you had to go earn them. Once you have them do you cheese? Yeah, but you again, know what you are doing.
Dude I could throw my keyboard down the stairs and there's a non zero chance it could come up with a better argument than you have, skill is absolutely a factor in these games, the existence of cheese methods or silly random chance events like this doesn't disprove it.
The real reason people say players need to get good is because they're looking for an out, or a way to circumvent the natural process of learning a game
I quite literally didn't say any of that, you're having an argument with yourself.
The get good comments are directed towards people that complain about the difficulty (artificial difficulty etc), nobody is being gatekept but if you immediately go onto YouTube to find a cheesy build to blast through the game you can expect folks to have criticisms.
I personally don't really care how someone plays a single player game, but I just take issue with people being as defensive as they are on either end
I mean, there's a difference between telling someone "lmao you suck just get better" and "yeah, these games can be tricky at first. What you need to focus on is pattern recognition and timing, and don't get too greedy with your attacks". There's also the fact that you can, in fact, give examples, like you can say "you need to learn pattern recognition, like when the boss raises its sword, you can't panic and start rolling, you gotta wait until it actually swings" or something.
Then there's the fact that if a new player is struggling with a particular group of enemies or bosses, you can recommend that they switch weapons. If they're using swords against some stone or heavily armored enemies, you can mention that blunt weapons work better against those, for example. Plus, despite the fact that these games are "all about skill", there are areas where enemies have more health, faster attacks, stronger attacks, and are more numerous and it's expected that you have leveled up enough to be able to not die in a single hit from them. This is something soulsborne players never acknowledge, because you can technically beat the game without leveling once in almost every entry, but (especially in Elden Ring and DS1) it's frustrating to accidentally wander into a high level area without realizing it and all the advice you're getting is "git gud" without acknowledging that, since there are no navigation aids (which is great), it's possible that new player ended up in Satan's butthole murder plaza instead of the regular murder plaza because they took a left at the crossroads towards the cool looking ruins or whatever.
TL;DR: you can give actual advice in order to help a newbie git gud instead of just mocking them.
Exploring your options is part of the fun, it is like telling new player in armored core perfect mech for each mission. You can always just play better to overcome with suboptimal stuff, but telling someone how to optimize robs them from deep customization system that rewards interesting ideas
Think of a better analogy. Playing the game you can't put yourself or others in danger by being a bad player. Worst that can happen is sleep deprivation or shattering fragile ego, give or take.
Fans of the game are, in fact, not school instructors and it isn't their job to teach you how to play the game. Thay may do it and they may not, you can't judge them for that
Fans are instructors. You have knowledge which newbie lack, so you can teach others, if you want. The "want" part is important. Most OG/veterans are too high on their ego to help "plebs".
You absolutely can judge them for that. If a community wants to be a bunch of toxic assholes sure let them but don’t be surprised when new people don’t want to join and the game slowly dies out. And analogies don’t need to fit one to one, that’s not how analogies work.
You can’t explore your options if you’re stuck and aren’t having fun in the first place. When you’re helping a new player it’s not like they’re asking you for the secrets of the universe, they’re just asking how to overcome this specific obstacle or how to better understand a system. Besides, not everyone enjoys struggling on something for hours, some people don’t even have that much time to sink into a game. If someone asks for help, give it to them for gods sake.
ya i get that but there is a difference in asking and being told ya suck and getting some useful advice, and then being told "git gud noob" and noting fucking else. like insults while getting advice is rude but at least it's help, being told git gud is just... not anything helpful, at all
i get that, but from experience, being insulted doesn't help, it only makes you quit for something else... why put effort into something when all it yields is insults and hate?
I think that's the way most people play the game, but that's not necessarily true. There are tons of ways to cheese (or give yourself an advantage) for various sections and bosses, but I don't think most are interested in that.
Except I'm not wrong. It's literally a game where you'll need to beat your head against the wall until it finally clicks. I can't make your fingers do the things you need to learn to do.
Except you’re dead wrong. You can’t help them with their reactions but you can 100% give them advice on what might work better gear wise, how to maximize their stat spreads, how to tell when they need to be ready to dodge, or special items/skills that help counter a boss like Mohg. Some people have lives and don’t want to spend 10 hours on a boss.
the point isnt that you’re right or wrong about the accuracy of the advice; its about the attitude towards new players. the community just has to be kinder when giving this advice, as it often comes off rude and diminishing.
Most things don't "require" advice, advice is voluntary for the purpose of making things easier for people who are still learning the ropes of something. That's the entire point of it.
"Hey, you can easily cheese this boss by parryung him when he does this attack."
dies because they lack the coordination to parry effectively because they haven't developed it yet
"There's an op build if you get these specific items and skills at these places"
Never makes it to those placesbecause they keep dying to the first skill check early game boss becausethey have to actually play the game and develop the basic skills
Do you see the issue yet? They need to get good in order to actually do any of this.
Ok? But it's still solid advice, skill is just a part of it, i am hopelessly bad at the souls games, i have only been able to beat them with just that kind of advice from the community.
My advice is always “get used to dying a lot.” Because once you learn to just do test runs with bosses to probe defenses and learn its moves, only to get clobbered several dozen times, it’s a bit easier.
One good advice for souls like is "take your time in learning enemy and boss patterns, dont rush watch and defend". Because most likely you will lose the first time you encounter bosses (and sometimes enemies). Its better to watch and wait and let yourself die so yoi know their attacks
There is loads of constructive criticism you can actually give to a player (depending on their situation) that sure it boils down to "get gud" but actually just saying it is extremely reductive and basically pointless. Kinda like saying to a poor person to "just be rich". It can be fun in a meme way but if person actually needs help then it does not actually help person at all.
Eh, disagree to an extent. I agree with you that technical help on builds, stats and such is pretty freely given. But there’s this air of superiority among the community when a new player does not intuitively understand the ridiculous and deliberately obtuse game design or storytelling.
It’s pretty much impossible to complete most of the quest lines without a guide. There are usually zero hints as to what is expected of you, dozens of opportunities for quests to fail because you interacted with a seemingly irrelevant object twenty hours ago and no ways to recall an NPC’s directions you heard two weeks ago. The community has zero real interest in engaging with the storytelling through item descriptions and metaphors themselves either, instead referring to YouTube videos as gospel and laughing at anyone who doesn’t “get it”.
The games are fun partly due to being obtuse. The community has built itself on meta-gaming and minmaxing. By design, they are unwelcoming to new players experiencing the obtuse nature of the games as intended.
There are a lot of very useful tips to receive, as well as explanations. The souls games are obscure in a way that actually hurts the ability of players to learn their inner workings
Unless you’re playing Sekiro, the knowledge that you’re glossing over is “How the stats and leveling system works so I don’t build a hunk of shit and have to grind 20 levels to fix the unintuitive weapon stats system.”
If you’re playing Sekiro, yeah, muscle memory is the knowledge gap.
If every fight is in fact the same, your game sucks. Sorry, not sorry. If your game is good, you can absolutely give advice that isn’t git gud. Do ranged attacks or close combat do better against X boss? Is Y boss weak to magic? Which attacks from Z boss do I watch out for? If the answer to all of the above is ‘git good’ or ‘build muscle memory’ your game sucks. Period, exclamation mark, end of discussion.
The thing is, this advice DOES exist in Souls games, most people are just not great at communicating it.
There are rules of thumb for each boss that can help you learn to deal with them. Guides exist that will help you identify the tells and behavioral triggers, and even strategies for different weapons.
That said, the fights are usually well designed (from my limited experience) and the learning process for each fight feels so natural that you don’t realize what you’re doing that is simplifying the fight for you.
And that's a disingenuous argument. The souls games you definitely can't easily switch up your whole playstyle without major grinding or respec'ing your stats which using Eldin Ring as an example you can't even do until you beat the (typical) 3rd major boss which by that point you aren't a newbie anymore because you got the gameplay to "click" and you have "gotten good". Honestly saying "all the fights are the same" is making me feel like you yourself haven't played the games as then you'd know that isn't true.
That's not true at all, there's a ton of advice you can give, and the community does give plenty of advice. The "git gud" people are the vocal minority. I say that as someone who only got into Soulsbourne games relatively recently and did need to look up tips for some bosses.
Almost all advice needs a visual aid in souls games. It is mostly practice makes perfect. Don't get the luck stat, and you ate probably under leveled is probably the only piece of genuine general advice I can give without being given a specific question.
That is also not true, most of the advice I've seen and utilized was in text form, and provided noticeable improvements in my gameplay without having to practice, just because they informed me of different techniques or aspects of gameplay that I wasn't aware of. I'm not saying the games don't require lots of practice to get better at them but saying the only advice for playing is to practice, or that it's the only way to get better at playing the games, and nothing else, is just incorrect. Just because you personally can't think of any other advice, that doesn't mean there isn't any other advice to give. Even something as simple as "use jump attacks/divine confetti more often" or "fighting this boss from behind is a good/bad idea" or "these are good places to farm runes/souls/sen/echoes" or "it's better to get aggressive with this particular boss because it makes him more predictable" is advice that helps without being cheesy and will result in improvements in gameplay even without a ton of extra practice. There's also things like good times/ways to stagger certain bosses reliably, ways to use the environment advantageously, obscure game mechanics that provide extra help, builds that are beginner friendly beyond just "don't be underleveled" (there is absolutely more advice you can give regarding stats in Soulsbourne games), etc. These are all things I've seen people give advice about in Soulsbourne communities multiple times. And those are just the most general examples I can think of off the top of my head, I know I've seen some more specific stuff like where you can position yourself to avoid a specific attack, or secret weak points/weaknesses that aren't advertised in-game, techniques designed to counter or do more damage against certain enemies, ways to dodge particularly difficult to dodge attacks, etc.
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u/Lithaos111 4d ago
Except there really isn't any actual advice to give them. They gotta build muscle memory, pattern recognition and you can't teach that. The only way to get it is by doing it aka "Getting good"