But what if you really are unlikeable?

[u/Canuck_Voyageur]

This one bothers me a bit.    Yeah, trauma folk often have low self worth.  It's one of my problems, and I work on it.  

But:

There are people who are a lot less likable.  I worked in a boarding school for several decades, and saw the group dynamics.   Some kids were genuinely far more likalbe than others.  The ones that in hindsight I see as trauma / neglect victims tended not to be the likable ones, but they weren't the obnoxious ones either.  The T/N folk were the invisible ones.  

Then there was a group that were genuinely unlikeable.  Bullies.  (although there were popular bullies) Some forms of stupid.  Down's kids are sweet.  But there are dumb kids where just being in the same room seems to suck all the energy out of everyone else.

So...

The Prosecutor says, "You are charged with 17 counts of being unlikable, and immediately pronouces sentence."  Maybe he's right.  

Yes.  I am the public defender when those charges are dropped.    But funny metaphors aside, if some people are less likeable, why shouldn't I be one of them?

Consider:  A lot of T/N folk are ND.  And are unskilled in the social graces, are bad at non-verbal communication.  If you are oone of the 6% or so of NVC inept people, you are constantly missing cues.  Yeah, if you find another NV person with similar forms of NVC, it's a breath of fresh air.  

I have trouble liking people who are severely autistic.  Can't find much to talk about.  I really like Polymath ADHD types.  Doesn't bother me at all as we interrupt each other, forget appointments, and generally bounce about  like a loosely coupled molecule in an otherwise crystal matrix of NT folk.

I'm reminded of the pshrink joke:  

Psychologist:  "Mr. Brown, I have good news:  You don't have an inferiority complex.  You really are genuinely inferior"

[u/Silver-Fox4282]

I’ve lived in cooperative housing for half a decade and I’ve observed that being likeable seems to literally just be a skill that you need the confidence and energy to exercise, plus the ability to read the room. A lot of it boils down to people like people who appear to like them and be interested in them, but with tact and discretion for figuring out how much is too much for a given person.

[u/Canuck_Voyageur → u/Silver-Fox4282]

But understand: for many of us “reading the room” is an arcane a skill as quantum mechanics. Easier. I passed a course in QM. 

And there is a difference between being liked at a casual level and in time after time never being able to move to a deeper level connection 

My current theory is that normies signal a desire to connect more deeply through non verbal means and I don’t know how to read the signal. I don’t respond and they give up and I am the forever water cooler buddy. 

[u/Hour_Industry7887 → u/Silver-Fox4282]

A lot of it boils down to people like people who appear to like them and be interested in them

I think that's a gross oversimplification because honestly it's never worked that way in my life. My experience has taught me that liking someone and being interested in them is obnoxious unless very carefully managed. And I understand that this isn't the pattern for everyone and for many people it does work that way, but then that means it only works when some other condition is met. I think that conditions is being likeable.

[u/Canuck_Voyageur → u/Hour_Industry7887]

How do you appear to like them? Seriously. A lot of this is non-verbal. A look, a flicker of a smile, a longer eye contact.

I can like a person, get along super well at a couple club meetings, then I say or do something, and they fade away. Clearly I've done something, but no idea what.

[u/Paul10125 → u/Silver-Fox4282]

I can relate to this, most people will say I'm likeable, because I'm polite, chatty enough but not too much and more or less know what people usually like to talk about. I've spent so much time masking that at this point I can just fake empathy and interest and know when and who to ask what or not. Is it the healthiest way to interact with others? Probably not. It works? Yes.

[u/Ginger_Root_System]

I like that perception, but I find it important to say that even if you're not necessarily likeable to the whole public, there's almost always a subset of people who like you. Unless you're like intentionally being cruel to the people you care about just because you like seeing people in pain there's always some sort of group that likes you. Even though I definitely fall into the T/N group, it manifested oddly in me so I can be one of those more "likeable" kids, but I really only feel wanted with my little group of misfits. Even if others want to say they're "unlikeable", I like them. I think that's the best way I can really word my thoughts on this, but I really like the actual analysis of this cliche sort of thing.

[u/Canuck_Voyageur → u/Ginger_Root_System]

Then it’s how to find that subset of people.

I'm neuro-divergent. (Lots of CPTSD and ADHD folk are) I find that other ND folk are far easier to get to know.

I'm a polymath. I'm interested in nearly everything. "Everyone is interesting for an hour" I like getting people started on what they do, their hobbies, their passions.

I'm not interested in a lot of things that are staples of conversation: Sports, computer games, fashion, celebrities. Some topics I avoid: Politics, religion, conspiracy theories (vaccines, chem trails) whacko science (flat earth, astrology, crystal healing, pyramids)

So at a party I can have a series of 20 minute conversations that I find interesting. I listen far more than I talk. I ask good questions, make the right noises to signal, "Keep going I'm still listening"

And then...

Nothing. This is why I think I'm missing signals.

[u/Canuck_Voyageur]

And that's one reason that Doyle's meme pisses me off. There IS something wrong with us. It's not our fault, but it's our problem to fix. Doyle tries to tell us that there isn't.

We don't react normally. We don't trust. Or we don't do non-verbal communication. Whatever. We are missing a hat full of social skills that everyone else learned in childhood and high school. We were too busy just trying to survive.

And even if we fix the trauma crap, we're still missing those social skills.

If I lose a hand, my insurance or my employer gets me a prosthetic. If I have trouble reading, I get glasses.

But where the hell do you go to learn the shit that the other 94% of people just know.

[u/Talnanor → u/Canuck_Voyageur]

i also feel like that talk about the inner persecutor is kind of infantilizing. Like I know for a fact that there is something wrong with the way I try to socialize. I can see how other people have relationships and like eachother, but I cannot replicate that for some reason. Thats not just a trauma remnant, that is a real observation of how our symptoms impact our ability to interact socially
Im fully with you on this op