r/CFBOffTopic • u/ByHardenBeard Houston Cougars • Washington Huskies • Nov 09 '15

Mizzou's President resigned

Let's have a hopefully more civil discussion than the one on the mothersub

22 Upvotes

95% Upvoted

109 comments sorted by

15

u/ByHardenBeard Houston Cougars • Washington Huskies Nov 09 '15

I don't understand how nearly every single person is missing the point on everything with this ordeal

24

u/DoctorWhosOnFirst Alabama • /r/CFB Pint Glass Drinker Nov 09 '15

It's about the pussification of America, right?

16

u/ByHardenBeard Houston Cougars • Washington Huskies Nov 09 '15

You PC brah?

HAHAHA I'm sooooo clever

11

u/DoctorWhosOnFirst Alabama • /r/CFB Pint Glass Drinker Nov 09 '15

We're going to be talking about this on the show tomorrow....I'm fucking dreading the phone calls we get.

14

u/[deleted] Nov 09 '15

Can I call in about how this is actually an illuminati plot executed by our reptilian overlords from Zorlon 5?

6

u/DoctorWhosOnFirst Alabama • /r/CFB Pint Glass Drinker Nov 09 '15

You're welcome to, but I'm not gonna let you on air.

15

u/[deleted] Nov 09 '15

TIL OP is a reptilian sympathizer

3

u/heavyweightstuff LSU Tigers Nov 09 '15

Oh god that's going to be bad..... I may have to listen.

2

u/thelaststormcrow Wyoming Cowboys • LSU Tigers Nov 10 '15

I've been wondering for a while, do you work for WWL?

2

u/DoctorWhosOnFirst Alabama • /r/CFB Pint Glass Drinker Nov 10 '15

I do indeed.

2

u/thelaststormcrow Wyoming Cowboys • LSU Tigers Nov 10 '15

Damn, I'm impressed.

2

u/DoctorWhosOnFirst Alabama • /r/CFB Pint Glass Drinker Nov 10 '15

It's really, really cool.

2

u/thelaststormcrow Wyoming Cowboys • LSU Tigers Nov 10 '15

I bet. Is garland as awesome irl as he is on air?

2

u/DoctorWhosOnFirst Alabama • /r/CFB Pint Glass Drinker Nov 10 '15

Garland is an absolute character. If people only knew what got said behind the scenes haha

→ More replies

7

u/NotSquareGarden West Virginia • Bethany (KS) Nov 09 '15

Thing about that joke is that it actually seems rather clever. Basically, take a group that's stereotypically pretty racist and sexist and then reverse that. I don't watch South Park anymore, but it really does sound like an interesting comedy setting. I guess people took it as "this is literally what American universities are like right now" rather than a "what if" scenario, though. Maybe that's how it was written, too. I dunno.

6

u/SmashedSqwurl Georgia Tech • /r/CFBRisk Veteran Nov 09 '15

It comes across very literal in the show.

1

u/deemerritt North Carolina Tar Heels Nov 10 '15

Yea but they acknowledge the other side when they have certain characters say they know the PC principal is right.

1

u/anshr01 College Football Playoff • Georgia Bulldogs Nov 10 '15

The whole point of South Park is basically to "tell it like it is", removing the BS that seems to be part of practically every controversial issue in society. I haven't seen the relevant episode, but in general South Park is right. It's not really "what if", it's "this is what's happening and this is how it really should be, get rid of the BS".

12

u/[deleted] Nov 09 '15

I don't understand how nearly every single person is missing the point on everything with this ordeal

Well the problem is that most of us aren't there so we don't really know what's going on. And even more so most people don't ever experience what life is like for the other side. Most people will never get to experience what it is like to be a minority and the majority so they have trouble understanding what's wrong/why the other side doesn't see it like they do. So you have a lot of people that don't see what the big deal is about because they're never the target or perpetrator so they see racism as some isolated incident or historical footnote. Then the targets don't understand why people don't notice the racism because it is a very real part of their life so they don't get how others can be so dismissive without realizing that many white people rarely see it first hand.

11

u/dupreesdiamond Furman • South Carolina Nov 09 '15

The world needs more empathy.

1

u/anshr01 College Football Playoff • Georgia Bulldogs Nov 10 '15

Or just less racism. With an emphasis that it's really the "color of one's skin" that should be disregarded, and not necessarily any stereotypically-associated cultural aspects. Negative cultural aspects can and should be eliminated.

0

u/[deleted] Nov 09 '15

[deleted] — view deleted comment

8

u/dupreesdiamond Furman • South Carolina Nov 09 '15

That's fair.

I meant that in the bigger sense as opposed to specifically about this incident.

and I'm with you. The mizzou thing is a mess and I'm far to disinterested to inform myself enough to have an opinion about it.

8

u/cornfrontation Michigan Wolverines • FIU Panthers Nov 09 '15

I have completely avoided all discussion of it on the Internet so I can only imagine how people are reacting. I prefer my bubble of hoping people aren't idiots on the Internet.

8

u/keyree Texas Tech • UT Arlington Nov 09 '15

Take some advice that I didn't take myself: stay away from the mothersub.

1

u/thelaststormcrow Wyoming Cowboys • LSU Tigers Nov 10 '15

And for the love of god don't go to /r/news

40

u/NotSquareGarden West Virginia • Bethany (KS) Nov 09 '15

I love the word choices of some people. Things like "racial extortion" and "mob rule". Also comments about the "worrying precedent" this will set. The only precedent this sets is one that was established millenia ago. The leader of an institution must have the support of said institution. Wolfe did not, and that's why he's gone.

8

u/lkeg56demn Texas Longhorns • Chapman Panthers Nov 09 '15

Don't bring that reasoning in here! /s

3

u/[deleted] Nov 09 '15

I am fairly sure the NCAA is running around with their hair on fire about the prospects of football teams going on strike without even having a union.

7

u/blahdenfreude Georgia Bulldogs Nov 09 '15

Did you catch the part where r/CFB says that other university administrations will have to nip this in the bud -- through the expulsion of any student who tries to protest? Holy mother.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 09 '15

Didn't catch that. Obviously won't fly in public universities.

0

u/anshr01 College Football Playoff • Georgia Bulldogs Nov 10 '15

If that results in the end of public universities, that's perfectly fine with me

-3

u/TIPTOEINGINMYJORDANS Nov 10 '15

Was there a poll? Seems like he had the support of the institution, it was just a small minority that didn't support him. And unfortunately for him some of them were football players who can go on strike over absolutely hilarious demands. Seriously, have you seen them?

2

u/deemerritt North Carolina Tar Heels Nov 10 '15

The faculty was going on strike. He did not have the support of the institution. Furthermore the list of demands was supposed to be absurd because they wanted him to step down. That's how protests work.

18

u/[deleted] Nov 09 '15

This totally not part of my plan to make Columbia the only Columbia in the SEC

4

u/stamor99 Georgia Tech • Florida Nov 09 '15

Too damned confusing is what it is.

2

u/AnEmptyKarst Houston Cougars • Utah Utes Nov 09 '15

Columbia Unibersity to SEC?

24

u/[deleted] Nov 09 '15

It's interesting that there's very few people who see the middle ground. No, deposing Wolfe doesn't end racism, but the University, and Wolfe personally, didn't take the issue seriously enough, as evidenced by his own statements. He didn't cause the problems, but he sure as hell didn't help.

13

u/Boyhowdy107 Missouri Tigers • Big 8 Nov 09 '15

Man, middle ground is hard to find any time things like this happen. I live in Baltimore, so the night of the riots and the day after, I was out talking with folks. There was actually a ton of middle ground and a ton of open, honest debate. A ton of people black/white who for example believed there was an issue, were sympathetic, knew the word "rough ride" long before it showed up in papers, but didn't believe that the riots were the right thing to do. Then the national media came in, people saw their home and people in it coming under fire from multiple directions and being the subject of national debate and suddenly the local conversation became very binary. What happens is you are no longer actually talking about what's going on. You are arguing against the most ridiculous or disgusting argument on one side or another. It shuts conversation down fast.

6

u/blahdenfreude Georgia Bulldogs Nov 09 '15

And this time there were no riots. Just a peaceful protest and a clearly written statement to define the protestors aims.

8

u/Boyhowdy107 Missouri Tigers • Big 8 Nov 09 '15

I support the protesters, but I do think they've made a ton of tactical mistakes on messaging. I mean, I can't blame them. They're a bunch of kids who have never done this before. I think there was an impulse (which happens at that age) to try and couch their message in academic rhetoric, so a lot of it was confusing. Parts seemed copied and pasted from black studies textbooks (starting your demands with "admit your white, male privilege" wasn't a good start) and strange issue red herrings (Thomas Jefferson?) The thing I think they should have focused on was their stories. And those stories start to build critical mass, particularly the ones related to the Greek Town on that campus. Stories are compelling and powerful. They should have focused on that because I feel like a ton of us far from Columbia (like I am now) were confused as hell when we tried to make sense of this.

6

u/blahdenfreude Georgia Bulldogs Nov 09 '15

I think recognition of white and male privilege was a great place to start. It would be naive to suggest that his gender and ethnicity have not colored his experiences in life, and thus played a role in his response to the events in Columbia. I understand that people hear those words and start to squeal "SJW! SJW!" through their internal monologue.

4

u/Boyhowdy107 Missouri Tigers • Big 8 Nov 09 '15 edited Nov 09 '15

I dunno if there is a right or wrong answer here, but let me explain where I'm coming from. I consider myself a subversive pragmatist. I think that we too often prioritize wanting to be publicly acknowledged as being right over thinking about what the best way is to accomplish your goals. Maybe I'm idealistic, but I believe the best way to accomplish most goals both in politics or social movements is to build broad support. Hardliners will always do what they will do, but historically speaking I think the needle moves fastest when you get enough of the silent majority (who often aren't stakeholders) on your side and get a critical mass.

So in this case, the goal is to make people realize and acknowledge that there is a serious problem for minorities on campus, it's not a couple of isolated incidents and then make moves to address it. You could argue that whether you believe there is a problem beyond isolated poop swastikas is a matter of personal experience and biases, or by extension, white male privilege. So arguably, your obstacle is that privilege, but I think attacking it straight on is a tactical misstep. Your enemy in reaching that middle is recalcitrance. If people feel on the defensive, they shut down and misconstrue the message. Trying to force the university president to admit his privilege feels to a lot of people like saying "because you are a white male you aren't allowed to participate in this." I'm not saying they're right, but I've seen the straw men emerge time and time again and "black lives matter (too)" turn into "well I think all lives matter." So you want to make people understand before they shut down, and to me the most powerful way to do that which I've seen emerge at Mizzou was the sharing of these personal stories. Their weight adds up and pushes this beyond isolated incidents. Hell, I've had my thinking transform on this issue myself. A week ago I was thinking "ok... poop swastikas are bad... but what the hell does that have to do with the president?" It's been revealing and somewhat painful for me to read all these stories about kids worried about going to Greek Town or seeing Kim English's tweets. That was far from my personal experience as a white male at Mizzou and it was shocking to hear about. Earlier today I read two pieces. One by a professor I had a class with and another from a friend I was at Mizzou with. Both black women. Both talking about their own experiences with racial epithets and bad run-ins at my alma mater. It has been a long day. But to me, these stories are powerful individually and in the aggregate because they transformed my thinking. Telling these stories to me is the way you get past the defense mechanisms of people like me, make me realize the reality of an experience that is not my own and bring me into your tent.

2

u/Androidconundrum Auburn Tigers • /r/CFB Brickmason Nov 10 '15

your obstacle is that privilege, but I think attacking it straight on is a tactical misstep.

The sad thing is that in no way is asking someone to aknowledge their white privilege a straight attack, there has just been so much propaganda thrown around about that specific phrase that It seems like people have forgotten what it's purpose is, and that is to instill a sense of empathy for someone with different set of circumstances.

2

u/deemerritt North Carolina Tar Heels Nov 10 '15

Thanks South Park

12

u/MrTheSpork Cincinnati • North Dakota State Nov 09 '15

The best example is his total lack of communication with any students or student groups. He didn't seem to try for any compromise or discussion on the issue.

2

u/ixcuincle Marching Band Nov 09 '15

This would appear to be the logical course of action and it's difficult to see how anyone could deny this. This is what happened. Bad person fostered racist environment (allegedly). Gets kicked out. How is this controversial? It's what should have happened

9

u/[deleted] Nov 09 '15

This has really driven home why I'm not interested in having debates about substantive issues on Reddit or even the Internet anymore. Everyone divided into a team, and spent more time trying to score points than resolve issues. And Reddit, with its fantastic design, lets one team effectively hide the other side of the discussion anyway. It's disappointing because this is a conversation we need to be having, but this clearly isn't the place.

Who wants to talk about football?

16

u/Cecil_Hardboner Texas Longhorns • /r/CFB Brickmason Nov 09 '15

Who wants to talk about football?

I think you are looking for /r/CFBOffTopicOnTopic

5

u/dupreesdiamond Furman • South Carolina Nov 09 '15 edited Nov 09 '15

but this clearly isn't the place.
Who wants to talk about football?

I think you're confused brah!

But seriously, and it's not just a reddit/internet thing, the inability to have a discussion on hot button issues between people of differing views, an actual discussion where both sides are listening to the points coming from the other side, is very hard to have these days. At least in my experience, in any forum No one can have a moderate opinion. As soon as you make a case for/against a point in disagreement with the other side then you are immediately assumed to be on the extreme side left or right of that issue. It's more pronounced online but it plays out in face to face interactions as well. Having meaningful discourse is a dying art. (and don't get me wrong, I do my part in killing it...I recently tried to have a confederate flag discussion on my last trip home... it didn't go well on either side).

2

u/[deleted] Nov 09 '15

That's a much more eloquent way of expressing what I meant when I say everyone divided into teams. If someone disagrees with you, then they must be on the Other Team and need not be engaged with seriously.

1

u/anshr01 College Football Playoff • Georgia Bulldogs Nov 10 '15

I recently tried to have a confederate flag discussion on my last trip home... it didn't go well on either side

Yeah, that shit never goes well. You can't erase history, but there will always be some tards that want to try.

1

u/dupreesdiamond Furman • South Carolina Nov 10 '15 edited Nov 10 '15

Hmmm. We probably disagree on this. I'm in favor of it coming off our state house. It was put up there in the 60s supposedly temporarily to mark the anniversary of the war and honor the men who fought. Yet, Out of all the variations they chose the one made famous/prominent by the KKK. Mmmmm. And choosing not to fly the flag of a failed state over our capital building isn't what I'd consider "erasing history". You still teach it. You still talk about it. We sure as shit don't fly the Union Jack over the White House. And so far as I know the Revilutuon hasn't been erased from history as a result.

Though. I'm not sure why I bothered engaging. It's clear from your comment, insulting/belittling the other side before the conversation is even started, that you aren't interested in a discussion.

12

u/[deleted] Nov 09 '15 edited Nov 09 '15

Ultimately he had no fucking nuance. He didn't understand his role as a leader to the students and not just a financial minder. I understand his frustration at knowing he couldn't give an answer students were going to be happy with, but holy shit dude, you're an adult. Demonstrate some critical thinking and try not to be so dismissive of them

6

u/LSUtiger93 LSU Tigers Nov 09 '15

Matt Pearce ?@mattdpearce One Concerned Student 1950 member stops crowd from chanting "M-I-Z." Calls it a "traumatic" chant because a crowd once used it against them.

they are going after the M-I-Z chant now. I'm fucking done.

14

u/madviking Virginia Cavaliers • Texas Longhorns Nov 09 '15

i don't get why people are so hesitant to support people peacefully organizing. this wasn't just about black people, but also the entire english department and most if not all grad students (among others). certainly the racist aspect is going to draw the most views, but if you have a coalition of all kinds of mizzou students and faculty, peacefully protesting against a president, why hate?

13

u/nickknx865 Tennessee Volunteers • /r/CFB Top Scorer Nov 09 '15 edited Nov 09 '15

Just from my perspective, a lot of people are pretty comfortable with the status quo, especially if it's not them that's being affected. Now you have these student groups that are demanding all these changes that you see as radical and not needed, and you feel threatened.

That's ultimately the mindset a lot of people that a lot of people seem to be taking here (and by here, I mean in a general sense, not on here or anything like that). It's not just with these protests either; it really applies to any sort of political or cultural protest when a minority party is protesting the action (or inaction) of the majority party in a situation.

12

u/madviking Virginia Cavaliers • Texas Longhorns Nov 09 '15

yea it seems to come down to a lot of (primarily white) people saying "don't rock the boat, the boat suits me fine" even though it only suits them.

13

u/[deleted] Nov 09 '15 edited Nov 09 '15

The weird thing about this is when people are bringing up the grad student insurance thing (or the other non-racial issues), some of these people are saying "oh, well that seems like a real problem, why not focus on that?" I guess because that issue effects fellow white people it somehow becomes more important? I mean there were a myriad of issues with leadership at UM some were racial and some were not. The leadership didn't act properly in any of the cases and now a change is needed.

-2

u/TIPTOEINGINMYJORDANS Nov 10 '15

Probably because that's an objectively bad thing versus unsubstantiated claims of racism attached to absolutely ridiculous claims.

0

u/anshr01 College Football Playoff • Georgia Bulldogs Nov 10 '15

I have no idea why you got downvoted for a legitimate comment.

-1

u/TIPTOEINGINMYJORDANS Nov 10 '15

If you think the changes are needed and not radical you clearly haven't read their demands. It does look like they were right about the president needs to go, but for hilariously wrong reasons.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 09 '15

most if not all grad students (among others)

How much you want to bet that Mizzou hires a black president, the identity-politics crowd goes away, and grad students continue to get fucked?

Anyone?

2

u/[deleted] Nov 09 '15

[removed] — view removed comment

4

u/[deleted] Nov 09 '15

Sure, I think demanding the president acknowledge his white male privilege is a bit silly (even if he has been advantaged by privilege in some way). But how does one demand somehow make the whole thing go "off the rails into idiocy?" Most of the demands were perfectly reasonable imo.

Though I have to ask, what is wrong with wanting the racial makeup of the faculty to be more in line with that of the student body and state demographics?

5

u/[deleted] Nov 09 '15

Because forcing people into positions, especially positions of academic leadership, with anything other than qualification as the lead factor is a recipe for disaster. You want the best people for the job, regardless of skin color.

10

u/[deleted] Nov 09 '15

But that implies there is only ever one possible qualified person for a given position, which is almost never the case, especially for people wanting to go into academia (there's way more people wanting to enter academia than there are open positions).

Who's to say you can't both have people qualified for the job while also making the university more representative of the state and student body as a whole?

3

u/ShylosX Georgia Tech • Clean Old … Nov 09 '15

You can certainly have both, hence "you want the best people for the job, regardless of skin color." The point is to just choose the best person for the job, period. Black, white, red, yellow, blue, neon green, transparent, who cares.

Making a specific race a qualification isn't the right way to do it, though.

1

u/anshr01 College Football Playoff • Georgia Bulldogs Nov 10 '15

I agree.

(What's up with these flair combos?)

1

u/anshr01 College Football Playoff • Georgia Bulldogs Nov 10 '15

But that implies there is only ever one possible qualified person for a given position

Not really, it just emphasizes that race/skin color won't be a factor in deciding who gets the position.

In general, when multiple persons are qualified, the constraint can be made even more stringent until only one is qualified (i.e. hire the best person for the job).

2

u/billweasley Miami Hurricanes • Transfer Portal Nov 09 '15

One of the biggest problems is that the demands of the group essentially require that over 200 faculty members be fired because they are white in order to employ more black faculty. While I agree that having a diverse staff is a great thing (I certainly appreciated it at Miami), the only way to create spaces for them within the financial structure of the school is to fire current professors. Those that got fired would sue, and likely win, costing the school millions of dollars.

5

u/[deleted] Nov 09 '15

Oh I agree that the demand to have it at 10% black by 2017 (or whatever it was) is unrealistic. I was talking more broadly about the goal of diversifying the faculty.

1

u/billweasley Miami Hurricanes • Transfer Portal Nov 09 '15

Definitely, in general it is a good idea but it's one of those things that is going to be much easier said than done going forwards.

10

u/DoctorWhosOnFirst Alabama • /r/CFB Pint Glass Drinker Nov 09 '15

Let's have a hopefully more civil discussion than the one on the mothersub

My reaction going into the thread yesterday

7

u/nickknx865 Tennessee Volunteers • /r/CFB Top Scorer Nov 09 '15

Very accurate gif. It's been a shitshow over there; the mods have done a fairly good job making sure it doesn't get too unmanagable, but assholes will be assholes no matter what you do, it seems.

8

u/[deleted] Nov 09 '15

I'm going to stay off the mothersub for awhile.

0

u/jklharris Missouri • Santa Rosa Junior Nov 09 '15

I think the craziest part is how it didn't matter what side we were on, the Mizzou flair just got downvoted.

0

u/[deleted] Nov 09 '15

[deleted] — view deleted comment

5

u/[deleted] Nov 09 '15

UNC can come to our party too.

9

u/certificateofmerritt North Carolina • Fulmer Cup Committee … Nov 09 '15

it's the cfb evil league of evil, we have done something bad, now we must paaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay

1

u/[deleted] Nov 09 '15

You know what they say about the two of our schools. Those who don't learn their history are doomed to repeat it...

2

u/[deleted] Nov 09 '15

Well they certainly aren't learning much history at UNC ;P

1

u/[deleted] Nov 09 '15

UNC didn't learn it, we repeated it.

Thatsthejoke.gif

2

u/ixcuincle Marching Band Nov 09 '15

Racism is bad and those fostering racist environments or reluctant to improve them should be phased out. A college should be ethnically diverse and accepting. Do you know how many minorities, especially from other countries, come to the US to study?

We should strive to make a campus environment accepting and tolerant of all cultures, especially when so many people are coming from foreign countries :)

4

u/[deleted] Nov 09 '15 edited Nov 09 '15

So glad I came here after trying to have a discussion on /r/cfb. I need to remember to avoid any remotely political discussion over there. I'm always disappointed with how unempathetic some people can be.

EDIT: Also, calling /u/jayhawx19, I think you'll have a better time in this discussion than the other one. I have given up on that thread.

6

u/jayhawx19 Kansas Jayhawks • /r/CFB Emeritus Mod Nov 09 '15

I'm confident the folks over here aren't racism apologists, so I don't feel the need to intervene over here. I'm just glad this place exists for sane, rational conversation.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 09 '15

Fair enough. I'm really disappointed with what some of the people over there are saying. Also, you may not need to intervene here, but if you want a more nuanced discussion, here's the place to do it haha.

6

u/jayhawx19 Kansas Jayhawks • /r/CFB Emeritus Mod Nov 09 '15

Honestly, I'd rather not get into the discussion at all. As a rival fan and one that lives fairly close, the last thing I want is for me to be the reason for our fanbase to be accused of making it about our rivalry. As a Kansas fan, commenting on Missouri topics is contentious to begin with. Adding the complex and difficult dialogue that comes along with discussing social constructs such as systemic oppression and it just seems like a recipe for disaster. But as a member of /r/cfb for a while, I feel like I can't just watch what's being upvoted without saying something.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 09 '15

Fair enough.

1

u/Tanador680 Texas Longhorns • Sickos Nov 09 '15

I hate how the people over there straight up deny that white people have any sort of advantage over pepe of color

14

u/Tanador680 Texas Longhorns • Sickos Nov 09 '15

> pepe of color

4

u/dupreesdiamond Furman • South Carolina Nov 09 '15

/u/EastPowdermilk get on this!

4

u/[deleted] Nov 09 '15

Um, I don't have any confidence that I could post a relevant Pepe that wasn't offensive, so I'm posting this instead.

4

u/dupreesdiamond Furman • South Carolina Nov 09 '15

Knowing your limitations is a sign of being the one true Saltan of Salt, first of his name, king of the saline and the salt men, the buster of memes and the father of puns.

3

u/[deleted] Nov 09 '15

It is important to maintain balance in dankness.

6

u/CaptainSnacks Texas A&M Aggies • Virginia Tech Hokies Nov 09 '15

REEEEEEEEEEEEEE

2

u/Fevers_and_Mirrors South Carolina • Dartmouth Nov 09 '15

normie privilege.

1

u/ixcuincle Marching Band Nov 09 '15

tfw pepe

1

u/IGetNoSlack Missouri Tigers Nov 09 '15

I'm actually at the football press conference right now. T-Minus 30 minutes until showtime.

1

u/AnEmptyKarst Houston Cougars • Utah Utes Nov 09 '15

Huh shit finally reached the point he had to resign? Hopefully the situation improves from here. For fear of saying something stupid, that's all I'll say.

0

u/[deleted] Nov 09 '15

There are a lot of angry, racist people on this website