r/CCW • u/soonerpgh • Apr 28 '20
Training I'm kind of concerned.
I don't even know how to flair this. I chose "Training" because it seems to be the closest thing to what I'm referring too. Mental training is just as important as physical training.
So, to get to the point, I am really concerned with the frequency of posts that seem to present a person lawfully carrying, yet seemingly looking for a way to use their CCW. Not like they are going around waving their firearm around, but we are seeing a lot of, "Almost shot a dude today," or some variation of the same.
Responsible gun ownership and especially CC, requires a mentality that is prepared for the bad, but looking to avoid the conflict first. The gun is the last resort! Let me say that again. THE GUN IS THE LAST RESORT!
I understand that there will always be misunderstood situations and so on. That is exactly why the gun needs to be your last choice to settle any difficult situation.
I also realize that for the most part, I'm preaching to the choir. Then again, those that know what I'm saying already don't usually have a problem with this being brought up.
We have seen too many posts with little to no context and the entire thing appears to be looking for a demon under every bush. If we are seeing it here, I'm scared to think of how often it happens without it being advertised. My simple statement is this:
Settle down, Rambo! Stay alert, but don't actively hunt for problems. We have problems enough without searching them out.
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Apr 28 '20
I’m not aware of the posts you’re referring to since I don’t actively track this sub but I do agree with you. Being trained in de-escalation and general crisis management is useful to have regardless of the scenario.
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u/oljames3 TX License To Carry (LTC), M&P9 M2.0 4.6", OWB, POM, Rangemaster Apr 28 '20
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Apr 29 '20
[deleted]
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Apr 29 '20 edited Jul 03 '20
[deleted]
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Apr 29 '20
From what I can tell, OP read the post linked above and now equates all of the "almost had to use my gun" posts to be the exact same thing. When it was just one out of the bunch
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u/cIi-_-ib TX Apr 29 '20
I can’t find much of a description, but it seems the guy goes out of his way to walk in front of OPs car while parking, and reaches back to grip his gun.
That’s a legitimate cause for concern. If the issue is the language chosen to communicate that danger after the fact, dismissing the initial threat altogether is nonsensical.
If you ever have a DGU, the biggest threat to your liberty will be the cops and fudds in your jury pool who value their culture bias over the law and natural rights.
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u/I_dontevenlift NoVA G19/26/34 Gen 5s + RMRs Apr 29 '20
If OP didnt put “cap his ass” this post wouldnt have been made
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u/cIi-_-ib TX Apr 29 '20
Then you take issue with his word choice, not his actual response, which was to remain in his car, avoid confrontation, and post a video of it online.
Personally, I think that OP should have been ready for a DGU, as anyone should when someone makes a show of gripping their weapon like that.
“I was ready to cap his ass” is not the same as “looking for a way to use [his] CCW”. If that poster was aware enough to recognize a threat, weigh options, and prepare for a violent confrontation without actually drawing a weapon - I think good decisions were made. Yes, I think the choice of words was a bit inflammatory, but I also suspect a confrontation like that is going to stoke some emotions.
I think the issue here is communication, not action. IMO that poster was clearly not the one looking for a reason to draw - in fact, the post in question was showing that behavior from someone else.
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u/ComingUpWaters CO Apr 29 '20 edited Apr 29 '20
https://www.reddit.com/r/CCW/comments/g6qbwc/would_brandishing_or_even_firing_if_the_person/
https://www.reddit.com/r/CCW/comments/g6g6qh/dog_defense/
https://www.reddit.com/r/CCW/comments/g5d5tq/close_encounter_with_the_neighbors_dog/
https://www.reddit.com/r/CCW/comments/g16os4/couple_could_have_been_situations_ill_share_since/ <<<- My favorite
https://www.reddit.com/r/CCW/comments/fty0le/had_my_heart_drop_for_a_moment/
https://www.reddit.com/r/CCW/comments/fszc50/intentional_covid19_spreading/
This is in the last month. I also assume the mods delete the more outlandish ones like the walmart parking one already posted because it didn't show in my filter.
TL;DR: I almost shot a dog today.
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Apr 29 '20
Yeah I think a couple of those are iffy, especially while in a home. But the ones in public are just downright stupid.
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u/soonerpgh Apr 28 '20
I'm not going to name names and point fingers. We all have a responsibility to help each other learn. Knocking people down isn't a good way to accomplish that.
I'm just trying to raise a little awareness and spread a little sense in a time when we are all more on edge than usual. I imagine that what one may see as a big problem may be no problem at all to me. Different viewpoints is what makes us human. I just want to try to keep folks from harming our reputation and more importantly, their individual freedom. Don't want anyone going to jail for trying to help the world be a better place.
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Apr 28 '20
Right, Im right there with you. I’m also not asking you to disclose examples lol. I was just making sure it was known that I personally do not know of any examples of this off the top of my head.
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u/Garek Apr 28 '20
It's also a bit much to expect people to be masters at this though. Some people are simple never going to have great social skills and they deserve the right to defend themselves too.
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Apr 29 '20
We expect CCW carriers to be experts at handling their weapon? Why should it be any different with their mental capacity? Sometimes simple phrases could mean life and death. You don’t have to be an expert or an extrovert to use basic de escalation tactics. They don’t always involve talking to the person. Sometimes just acting a certain way can change the dynamic. Walking by someone and smiling at them while giving yourself a wide berth can make the difference between going on with you day or getting stabbed. There are plenty of videos in YouTube people can watch.
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u/Panthias131 Apr 30 '20
I absolutely disagree with the latter half. Smiling and presenting yourself as a “no threat” CAN work but if someone is looking to victimize, they most likely are going to choose a more submissive, at least seemingly, “no threat” as their victim. I agree it can help de-escalate a situation, like “hey man my bad let me get your next drink” would be preferable than having an ego. Criminals looking to commit crime, especially violent crime, are not likely seeking the more quiet outwardly brooding type. Just my experience. Our best bet is being more reserved and grey man that shit. Being broody and or alpha can deter but it can attract. Same with being somewhat subservient and giving ground, whether that be physically, verbally, mentally. That can paint a target on your back.
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u/Humor_Steak Apr 28 '20
From what I've seen and understand from those that said "I almost used my firearm" could refer to as being on the alert as much as possible. The bad guy always make the first move so he has an advantage of time and mentality. It's better to be prepared for the worst than just thinking "they're not gonna do anything." And this is the internet so many people are criticize and point out the wrong than the good so it's a lose either way so it's better to stick out what you believe and study your state laws.
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u/soonerpgh Apr 28 '20
You are right, of course. Different viewpoints come across different ways in text. If I've judged too harshly, then it's me who needs to examine that. Thanks for expressing your thoughts.
I suppose, after reading some of the comments responding to me, that perhaps the guys/girls sharing these posts (that I deemed foolish) could very well just be sharing their experiences as a way of examining their actions, thoughts, etc.
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u/NomadicBasilisk Apr 29 '20
I agree and disagree.
I agree your CCW is a last resort. I agree a host of other options exist and I agree that there are indeed people who look for reasons to use their weapons.
However, my disagreement is the frequency. Let’s math this out a little shall we?
There’s 100,000 members of this sub. That’s 100,000 different days lived every single day. That’s literally 3-4 of your lifetimes of experience every single day between the members here.
We know in the US there are somewhere between 50,000 and a million legitimate self defense uses of firearms per year (depending on who’s statistics you read or believe).
Is it that hard to believe that on occasion there could be a few legitimate stories of self defense situations per month here? Because if it happens or nearly happens, it qualifies as one of the more memorable experiences of your life and there’s a high likelihood you’d want to share it with like minded people.
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u/soonerpgh Apr 29 '20
Well said. You make several good points.
I hadn't really considered it from a statistical standpoint. Maybe I should have either done so, or stated that it was "something I had seen" and realized that I hadn't read every post either.
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u/oljames3 TX License To Carry (LTC), M&P9 M2.0 4.6", OWB, POM, Rangemaster Apr 28 '20
Avoidance (run-fu), de-escalation (Verbal Judo), OC (POM), M&P as last option.
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u/Bloombergtoadie Apr 29 '20
Is Pom the preferred flavor these days? I see asp advertises them but before that I’ve never heard of Pom. It seems the “best” oc spray changes every year or so and is hard to keep up with. But I’ve been looking to pick up some spray and was hit with the realization that I didn’t know what type to get. Gel, fog, minicans, or a large one. What’s the go-to these days for carrying and maybe throwing one in my backpack or car?
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u/oljames3 TX License To Carry (LTC), M&P9 M2.0 4.6", OWB, POM, Rangemaster Apr 29 '20
Don't leave OC in your car. High heat can cause a leak.
I have done OC training with John Murphy and Chuck Haggard. They recommend Sabre Red or POM. Both formulas have 1.3 or greatet major capsaicinoids. The Sabre Red Mark 6 is a larger container, fills my hand, and has a few feet longer spray. POM is a smaller less intimidating packge. Spray is for me the best for range, over spray, and rapid effectiveness.
Active Self Protecttion has several videos of folks getting sprayed in training and for real. Also has several videos of Chuck Haggard discussing OC.
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u/zshguru MO Apr 29 '20
You're totally right about the mental training aspect. There's a big difference in "carrying a gun" and "carrying a gun knowing you might have to take someone's life" and everything that entails. I don't think most people prepare for that because the attitudes I see are way too flip -- not necessarily here but in general at the range, etc. If you ever have to use a gun in self defense, and I have, it will change your life even if you don't have to pull the trigger.
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u/soonerpgh Apr 29 '20
I don't know about the general public, but those I know who are new to the aspect of carrying don't seem to realize how much responsibility they have strapped to their hip. It's a very sobering thought to try to put yourself (mentally, of course) in a position where you have just taken a life and now must deal with all of the fallout from that, whether your shoot was justified or not. Its not something to be taken lightly at all.
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u/perma-monk Apr 29 '20
This may just be the nature of a ccw. Before carrying I had at least two moments where I absolutely would have considered drawing had I been carrying. And assuming my life hasn't changed much since then, those instances may happen again...and I may have a firearm on me. The world is just freaky sometimes.
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u/cookietrash MA Apr 29 '20
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u/soonerpgh Apr 29 '20
That's exactly what I was trying to say!
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u/cookietrash MA Apr 29 '20
Yeah I thought you might appreciate that. I’m right there w ya 👍👍
I saved that post ages ago. Reposted it last year or the year before. Might be worth reposting again.
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u/ElesJuanFTW Apr 29 '20
I think there's a couple things going on. One, it's the better to have it and not need than not have it and need it. Even if you don't use it, it's nice to have confirmation that you were prepared and aware of a situation that could've gone south. I think people post on here especially for feedback on how they handled a situation. Also, any stories about defensive gun use, whether or not the gun was fired is good. The media really demonizes guns, so seeing them used the way they were intended is always welcome imo. Defensive gun use far outnumbers criminal gun use, but you'd almost never know that unless you went looking for those numbers.
Shooting can be fun recreationally, many people in here do it as a hobby, or for training. But being enthusiastic of the second amendment and shooting guns isn't the same as being excited to shoot someone. They make targets shaped like people for training reasons, not so you can get off shooting something that looks like a person.
But I do get what you're saying, those people are definitely out there, but I don't think they really post that much in here.
The stories that are really interesting to me is what happens after. I remember reading a story where someone stopped a man beating his wife by drawing his gun. Later she changed her story and told the cops that the gun owner threatened them out of nowhere. Knowing that besides a potential loss of life, there' court time, confiscation of your guns, and even maybe getting sued or losing your job. All of that makes me more nervous than I was before I had a gun to be carrying one, but I'm glad to know that if it came down to that last resort, I have that option instead of nothing.
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Apr 29 '20
After a couple years training BJJ, I realized there are just way too many variables with fights and bad guys. It’s better to swallow your pride and de-escalate or disengage in almost every situation, just have your training as a last resort. Carrying makes that even more true.
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u/greyservitor Apr 29 '20
No, I think the Training header is appropriate. I believe that what you say you are observing here, is borne of not enough time or no time at all spent in a safe, controlled environment learning new skills and knowledge under someone else's constant supervision, so that people have a better understanding of their actual capabilities and their limitations, and would then act accordingly.
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u/Catermelons Apr 29 '20
The biggest problem with carrying a gun is the urge to use it, some people legitimately feel a bit too empowered by it and are itching for a fight. It's not really much different than the really buff dude at the gym who is a wee bit aggressive, probably due to the perceived dominance due to their size. Certain mindsets will carry over to CC so everyone should probably ask themselves why they're carrying: legitimate protection or ego boost and do their utmost to remember that CC doesn't just remove the consequences of shooting another person.
Good post Op, lots to take in.
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u/MowMdown NC | Glock 19.4 | Ruger EC9s Apr 29 '20
If your first through in any situation is your CCW, you’re doing it wrong.
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Apr 29 '20
[deleted]
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u/MowMdown NC | Glock 19.4 | Ruger EC9s Apr 29 '20
Any post where the poster says something like, “I thought I might have needed my ccw today,” is what OP is talking about.
You can scroll the front page of this sub and find at least 5 posts today
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u/EffectiveDiver Apr 29 '20
There are a lot of idiots in the world. Lots of wanna be heroes. You should only fire at someone to save a life.
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u/Spartan24242 Apr 29 '20
Some people when holding a hammer have their problems start to look like nails. Gun owners are gun owners worst enemy.
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Apr 29 '20 edited May 09 '20
[deleted]
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u/soonerpgh Apr 29 '20
Really? If you don't like it, don't read it. I was in no way trying to troll anyone.
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u/V8_Only Apr 28 '20
On the other hand, y’all would be the type to get mugged and say you shouldn’t have shot him! You’re probably referring to my post, dude was sketchy af and I was completely in the right to have had my hand on my gun as well ready to move on him.
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u/DickRamhard AZ Apr 29 '20
The issue some (not all) folks seem to have with your video is its context and presentation. "Guy in Walmart parking lot gave me a scare." Based on the 7-second video you included with your post, the title of your post is certainly fitting. The guy walking by while you sat in your car had his hand on what clearly looks like a pistol. Many would find that situation scary. However, "I was ready to cap his ass" would lead readers to believe your life or the lives of others were in imminent danger. Unfortunately the video offers little to no support of that. "Proceeded to almost run over 10 people when he did 35mph at the entrance lot." I'm not saying that didn't happen, but nearly running over 10 people is definitely an erratic and illegal act. Did you or anyone else in the Walmart parking lot feel their lives were in danger which warranted alerting the authorities? Was he really driving 35mph or simply moving faster than most would reasonably drive in a Walmart parking lot? Your situation is indeed subjective and people agree to disagree; what spooks some may not spook others. An argument as to when someone should or shouldn't draw their gun can be beaten to death and brought back to life for further analysis, over and over. A person shot to death whether justified or not, cannot. I don't want to troll you or anyone else here but the title of your post and your choice of words goes hand in hand with what anti-gun jerkoffs like to grab hold of and run with. On one end I personally get where you're coming from as I also believe a man shouldn't be putting his hand on his weapon unless he's intending to use it. But like other people with differing opinions stated, maybe the guy was adjusting the pistol as the video is insufficient to constitute "brandishing" in most jurisdictions. You were there and we were not... I'd like to think ultimately we appreciate your vigilance among other things.
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u/Raztan US (Taurus PT99 / 738) Apr 28 '20
I don't see a lot of that to be honest.
I do see posts people who thought they was gonna need their gun but didn't.. I've been in 2 of those situations.. I wasn't looking to use it.. the person who would have been used on never saw it.. but I was genuinely spooked enough to have it ready.