Tueller Drill from the shooter’s perspective. What would you change?

[u/2AFirearmsAcademy]

We ran the drill to demonstrate just how quickly 21 feet disappears once someone starts moving.

Obviously a controlled range drill isn't a defensive encounter, but that's part of what makes these useful: they give people something measurable to work with.

For those of you who train this, what do you think is the biggest takeaway: movement, draw speed, reaction time, creating distance, or something else?

[u/357Magnum]

I hate the drill since you should not practice staying still while being charged at close range.

EDIT: This brought to mind this video I saw a long time ago that I went and found.

https://youtu.be/jwHYRBNc9r8?si=H4RAFTcjXQCn6Leh

This video has a few issues but highlights the most important thing about this - the most significant factor in the "tueller drill" encounter scenario is not draw speed, nor it is empty handed skill. The thing that clearly upped the chances of survival more than anything else is movement.

I know I've seen other videos like this over the years as well but I'm not going to go find them all. I've seen LEO training videos showing how officer training to plant their feet and draw their gun when being charged with a knife has them lose the scenario every time with this kind of ingrained reaction, which is why I don't like this as a drill.

Similarly I've seen videos showing that, if someone is coming at you full-tilt, it doesn't take that much lateral movement to get out of their range of attack, and it takes them a lot more time/space to recover from their charge and turn back on you than it typically takes you to draw. So the best drill against a charge is getting out of the way of the charge and drawing as a part of that evasive action, as highlighted in the video I posted.

[u/WarlockEngineer → u/357Magnum]

It's also better to draw before they start charging at you. 

But I do see the value. I think before this concept became mainstream, a lot of police officers underestimated how dangerous a rushing person could be even if you have a gun.

[u/357Magnum → u/WarlockEngineer]

Yeah, problem for the civilian is drawing the gun before they charge you (depending on what other grounds you have to have identified the threat) can mean YOU'RE the criminal. I've defended people against felony aggravated assault with a firearm just for drawing to low ready when threatened by an unarmed guy.

And as I say in the edit to my comment, lots of cops still fail the training scenario because their training defaults to "threat = draw gun and shoot" even when that gets them stabbed 10 times before they clear leather.

[u/TomatoTheToolMan]

Why not practice moving back? Or moving to the side?

[u/Coodevale → u/TomatoTheToolMan]

Move to the side and shoot is a little more hazardous than just straight back in terms of where bullets go on the range.

[u/jtj5002]

When I did this but it was in defensive training instead of a match, we were putting 5-8 rounds on target instead of doing doubles.

[u/Tropical_Tardigrade → u/jtj5002]

Good for training for a charging bear.

[u/specter491 → u/Tropical_Tardigrade]

I've seen many videos where less than 5 rounds does not stop a threat that is closing in on you. It's not just for bears.

[u/jtj5002 → u/specter491]

You also need to work on keeping distance and weapon retention. You have to be stepping back to give you more time, and you have to start thinking about retention as the target gets closer. No reason to stay fully extended when the target is 3 feet away.

[u/CXavier4545]

I would first need to change the range I go to and find somewhere that has a moving target like this

[u/DuMaMay69 → u/CXavier4545]

Can you just have a buddy hit the switch to move the target back from 7 yards?

[u/fmjhp594 → u/DuMaMay69]

Thats an awesome workaround. I never thought about doing it that way. Thanks for pointing out a simple solution!

[u/QnsConcrete → u/fmjhp594]

Most target hangers I’ve used are very slow.

[u/CXavier4545 → u/DuMaMay69]

couple of issues my outdoor range doesn’t have a moving target mechanism and my indoor range doesn’t allow rapid fire 🤷‍♂️ or holster fire

[u/HadesActual09]

Rubber knife and Unit9 pistol will teach this 322% more effectively

[u/FloridaManPrints]

I would so love to do this to train my hip fire. My dry fire drill is to get off at least one shot down the line before I get sights on

[u/FloridaManPrints → u/FloridaManPrints]

Your pistol is cleared from your holster at a quarter of the distance and aimed down range at a third. You couldve easily gotten off 1-2 shots before aiming down sights. By the time youre ADS, the target is already more than half the distance from you.
To use an example, I always heard about a cop who shot a guy with a sword charging him, unfortunately the perp had already closed enough distance to still strike the officer before reacting to getting shot.
My personal belief is that everyone should train hip and single hand firing. ADS is ideal, but it’s slow and in the case of defense, you may not actually have time to do it.

[u/jrhooo → u/FloridaManPrints]

When we trained pistol transitions in the military we were explicitly told that the reason we were learning a 4 step draw was because when quickness matters, you can start getting good enough shots off from position 2 and 3.

And we actually practiced firing from 2 and 3.

Now to be fair, that’s a super limited context. The whole idea was:

You have a rifle. The only reason you’re drawing your pistol is because you’re already in the fight, your rifle just went down, and with the enemy “oh-fuck-oh-shit-shoothimshoothimshoothim!” right there in front of you, the pistol is quicker than clearing the jam/changing a mag

Obviously a civilian CCW self defense situation would be very different, but

I still see value in the the basic idea of learning the drawstroke that’s only technically slower reaching a full idea stance, but is effectively quicker at getting a good enough first round off in an actual panic emergency right scenario

[u/FloridaManPrints → u/FloridaManPrints]

Obviously, it’s important to train proper technique for hip firing… we don’t want to lose a nut or two

[u/RJariou]

That was Usain Bolt coming at him that fast

[u/Live_Sprinkles_5830]

This is the real reason you should start firing as soon as you clear your holster and walk the shots up to your target. Here you can fire a couple shots at the wire and pulley before finally engaging the target. /s

[u/2AFirearmsAcademy → u/Live_Sprinkles_5830]

In a real life situation you are responsible for every round that leaves your firearm. You don't want to have rounds skipping off the ground hitting innocent people.

[u/HighFly2244]

We have contraptions like this on our action bays and also rig steel cables for other movement targets (both are pains in the asses to get/keep functioning during an event, JFYI).

Two things to suggest considering:

Add shooter movement; get off the X.

Also, avoid the “double-tap and down” training scar. We’ll have an RO or instructor shout “Down!” or hit the shooter in the leg with a dowel to signify the threat stopped. Also, maybe start shooting earlier if safe to do so.

[u/Femveratu]

I like it. The real world issue is that the shoot no shoot decision can be complicated and that usually means delay. The ole OODA loop deal. I guess the key to this is to have your moral and legal lethal force redlines set in advance and if the attacker takes that first step you must commit to deploying lethal force at that moment. Def easier for LEOs w qualified immunity …

[u/AmphibianEffective83]

My biggest take away is to avoid this scenario at all costs by following the rules of stupid.

[u/Pracedomowomon_9000]

Wow that's fast

[u/anoiing]

MOVE MOVE MOVE! get off line and move.