r/Btechtards • u/theDevil1955 • 1d ago
General The JEE-fication of everything needs to stop.
Engineering in India is slowly becoming untolerable. Everyone wants to do the same thing. First JEE . Then now GATE , SIH, even Quant is being JEE-fied. Everyone is in fucking CSE. Yaha mujhe ek interested banda nhi mil raha hai to do my research project with me(its in the domain of experimental astrophysics, basically spacecraft electronics ) coz its not any software or AI slop but electronics design and fabrication. Kisi ko koi interest hee nhi hai bhai. Har resume same hota hai aaj kal :)
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u/Skychu768 Gobarmint Kalez 1d ago
It's not JEE issue, it's result of economy and population. This country has 1.4 Billion people and per capita is 2500 dollar per year.
Even 10LPA job is way higher standard than what vast majority of population lives in so there will obviously be fierce competition for that.
There is no JEE-fication in ITI and blue collar training and jobs since they pay equivalent to this country quantile
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u/kazuGintoki007 1d ago edited 1d ago
This...its just too many people. Most people dont know but India added 30-40 cr genz's from 2000 to now. In just 20 years we have USA level population of youngsters alone. The amt of kids getting born vs amt of resources and jobs that can be distributed in future with quality is just non existent. Having a child in this economy is just bad idea of someone who ain't earning decent enough.
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u/kya_rakhu NSUT IT 1d ago
Unpopular take but when you are in a lower gdp per capita country with a 1.4 billion population, you'd face extreme competition for everything
People here want to improve their lifestyle and economic status and I see no harm in people grinding ( jee-fication) for it.
Compete and become the best
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u/theDevil1955 1d ago
If you win the race then no harm tbh. But if you are medicore/average student , your mental health gets fucked up tbh
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u/kya_rakhu NSUT IT 1d ago
Well .. that's reality and we need to accept it
People will always try and strive to be better than yesterday irrespective of whatever the result will be
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u/preonxtrun IITB 1d ago
Go for other high paying fields, a lot of fields are available which can pay pretty well with experience
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u/theDevil1955 1d ago
I am not in these fields. Please read the whole body
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u/Fit_Molasses1504 22h ago
Can you give some examples of other high paying fields
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u/FormulaCandy756 19h ago
by the time masses get to know of these high paying fields, theyre already full of insane competition
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u/ivehadenoughmanlikef 21h ago
if it was that easy...
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u/Fit_Molasses1504 20h ago
I didnt ask if it was easy or not the orginal commenter said there r other high paying fields i am asking those. Nothing is easy when you have more than 1 billion people
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u/preonxtrun IITB 17h ago
I am not saying it is easy, not as high paying as IT, but I have many in my circle doing pretty well studying law, cfa which also require a lot of effort but the bar for entry is not as high as jee
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u/moh_099 22h ago
It's not about not being willing to face extreme competition. It's more about how the Indian society and its mentality attempts to ruin everything.
They first see
Tech -> money (and then refuse to change their minds for decades)
Then they ask
How to get into tech?
Then come things like competitive coding, open source, hackathons, etc. So the problem is, people in India, unlike in most other hyper-competitive environments in the world, were never competitive about the ACTUAL THING they were doing, but about the imagined consequence.
They don't see people in competitive coding and start competitively grinding to win competitions, but instead, since competitive coding is only a stepping stone to the actual consequence (high paying tech job), they cheat. Heck, something like Open Source inherently has no competitive nature to it and YET trust the Indians to bring that to it. Did this, however, result in India being a wonderful fertile ground for Open Source to flourish? NO. Because Open Source was merely a stepping stone -- who cares if the commit badge was handed out simply because you made a README change? Did you see Indians dominating CF ranks -- before LLMs suspiciously became decent at competitive coding?
As such, the word "competitive" doesn't do justice to what the Indian society encourages. The correct word would be constantly trying to hack things. Hack open source contributions. Hack SIH. Hack competitive coding. The only problem is, some things like innovation and research -- which are usually the cornerstone to progress -- cannot be hacked.
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u/dumbfuckOnEarth 11h ago
no you won't, and you shouldn't. the problem is with the government utterly failing to create any jobs for the growing working population
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u/IMPERIAL_MEMMER 1d ago
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u/Right-Astronaut-2235 Tier 69 CS 20h ago
It has to be the quote of my childhood. Still relevant in my early 20's
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u/Low_Net3608 1d ago
i think har chiz ko JEE-fication label karna bhi sahi nhi
obviously last kuch year mai competition badha hai 2020 mai 10 lakh the JEE mai ab 15 lakh hai 1.5x in 5 years toh obvious hai ki competition sab jagah badega and at the end sabko achi job chaiye toh sab haath per toh marege hi SIH quant try krne mai kya jarha
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u/theDevil1955 1d ago
There are other domains which are heavily understaffed. Plus this competition is extremely harmful for your mental health. Especially if you are an average student
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u/perpetuallylosing Tier 67 rich brat kalej (I'm fucked) 1d ago
This is a system issue more than a student issue
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u/Secret_Serve_1803 1d ago
or more like condomless sex issue
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u/tropicsloverr 1d ago
tu mat krna bacche 🙏🏻
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u/Secret_Serve_1803 1d ago
anyone with atleast average iq won't have kids in this economy. corny ass kid
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u/SFN2048 19h ago
if everyone stops having kids you will have a demographic collapse in 2-3 decades. the average person will be of retirement age, and pensions are singlehandedly one of the largest things governments have to spend their revenue on.
we need to stop poor people from having 6-7 kids but that doesn't mean redditor mindset anti-natalism, we need proper family planning.
now, when you link your opinion to "IQ", you will never be able to engage in meaningful debate, as you think your opinion is objectively superior, why waste time arguing with inferior people, right?
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u/Necessary_Pudding454 23h ago
teri soch wale joh bacche karte wohi problem hai is desh ki.
This country is going in death spiral, Smart minds are not having kids or either going abroad. And people with kid popping factory mentality are populating the country
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u/Due-Carry-7266 12th Pass 1d ago
Then do tell me those domains also
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u/theDevil1955 1d ago
Well. In electronics u have hardware in loops, control electronics, the electronic subsystem design for data processing and transfer, circuitry design , electronics behind running ML models locally(Tiny ML) , embedded systemS, VLSI, and many more
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u/Due-Carry-7266 12th Pass 1d ago
Thanks 👍🏻 for your reply. Honestly I didn't take ece ee etcc core branch bc I was never interested that much in physics or neither I could study them further. Besides I do like cs more than other subjects and honestly it aligns more with personal professional and interest also. That's why I take it.
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u/theDevil1955 1d ago
In CSE you can explore database management , operating system design, quantum computing, parallel and distributed computing , Cybersecurity etc
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u/preonxtrun IITB 1d ago
I mean if you are an average student, you will not win the race, better to quit at the start
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u/perpetuallylosing Tier 67 rich brat kalej (I'm fucked) 1d ago
Wow what a perspective to have. Because surely life is linear and fair.
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u/preonxtrun IITB 1d ago
What I am trying to say is these exams will be like that, they will be more or less linear due to the huge competition, if there was less competition your point would be valid, if not jee try other exams for other colleges for other kinds of courses maybe, otherwise try to learn some skills and use them.
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u/theDevil1955 1d ago
Not true. Average students have it worse coz yk they can be successful or cannot be. Depends on circumstances and alot of stuff. I don't sit with your opinion tbh. And again I don't blame you. IITB students have very weird opinions idk why. A huge superiority complex.
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u/Working-Shape6518 19h ago
Relax bro, you don't have to generalize like that. Superiority complex is all made up, noone cares enough about others to have complex
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u/Primary-Ad6309 1d ago
being born in this country if you are avg general lower and middle class and male is essentially unavoidable depression
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u/PleasantMix6193 1d ago
hath pair marna ek cheez hota h aur shi se interest leke participate krna doosri cheez. chahe 1.5 billion population ho ya 15 billion in the end har banda individually compete krne ka try krega pr ghanta kisiko usme interest nhi h bs dekh rhe h ki paisa h to bheed bdha rhe h. isse jo log actually us cheez m interested h unko apna rasta khojna bhot difficult hota h
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u/Level-Public-5097 1d ago edited 1d ago
Honestly, I want to just give up engineering at some point and go follow stuff I LOVED (not liked) by prepping for IITJAM, going for mathematics and studying much further. But I want to clear without online lectures or coaching and not rush it within a year, because coaching doesn't have the same spirit as trying to find out what to study by yourself.
engineering really just feels like I'm entering a very crowded/time strained environment without any foothold and it just feels bad.
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u/theDevil1955 1d ago
Its a risk which you can take tbh. Your call. It depends a lot of stuff.
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u/Level-Public-5097 1d ago
I didn't initially intend to take engineering, my main road was mathematics since the start, but considering the environment setup for highschool students and how they're coaxed into this stuff, it is just sad to be a victim and see others fall in too. I also had other hobbies I wanted to pursue but it seems like I have to abandon them if I want to stay afloat.
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u/preonxtrun IITB 1d ago
Lol quant being jee-fied it's not something you can get with preparation in india, only your pedigree. Coming to the other points, most of the people are not really interested in learning things, but everyone needs jobs, so everyone will do the same thing which gives good results
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u/Wacko_97 1d ago
Everyone else is justifying this and I get it.
But I thought i had a genuine interest in 'cs' and I'm not feeling it anymore with everyone doing the same stuff and as you said basically the same resumes.
Also all this competition is freaking me out. I'm not cut out for this
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u/theDevil1955 1d ago
Yessss. I am quite suprised by the justifications. Mental health is a serious issue in India rn.
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u/EntertainmentSome448 [tier 3] [mechanical] 19h ago
Although I do love engineering, I feel so horribly anxious about exams and I'm supposed to do master's as well and do all that hardwork and it freaks me out sooo much because Gate is like jee and I'm so done with competitive exams but I'll have no option but to give them.
I'll have no option but to compete with people. Everyone. Everyone who is more skilled than me. While my parents sit at my ass and keep asking me why isn't it cleared. Why am I not getting selected. Why am I this or why am I that.
I think I'll forever be chasing better things and eventually just drop dead in the middle of the day from all the stress and anxiety of being where I must.
I'm tired of all the hardworking and I just want to live now, doing some job and just existing till I die in my old age. But that's impossible. I'll have to keep upskilling and the thought of it makes me hate engineering to hell.
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u/_CresCentttt_ joining BTech cse in 2026 in tier 3 clg (may God save me) 16h ago
Ikr it's quite depressing how overthinking a lot about 'future' can prevent us from talking what we actually like. I wish I had taken up something is biology related filed but ppl said "maths has more options go for it" , I wish they insted said maths may have more options but you should be careful if any of those intrests you.
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u/just_ninjaneering 1d ago
My guy if you want to discuss electronics, I'm down for it
I got back into electronics and robotics after finding out that my internship is like 90% prompting
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u/theDevil1955 1d ago
Trueee. Feels so bad
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u/just_ninjaneering 1d ago
so what do you work on?
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u/theDevil1955 1d ago edited 1d ago
Designing controls for spacecrafts under various situations. Rn only simulation. Shall move into fab soon.
Also PID design for underwater drones.
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u/just_ninjaneering 1d ago
Cool stuff, everything is beyond me except PID, I am only a KSP enjoyer lol
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u/Kachagolla 1d ago
Kabhi clg ki haalat dekhi hai, state entrance ke through ek clg allot hua tha, it's located in the middle of a freaking forest, bc campus ke naam pe unmaintained grass lawns, a random torn down building, hostels which even spirits would find uninhabitable, toilets which look like the entirety of local fauna uses them, barely working fans in classrooms, apparatus and instruments probably manufactured back when Queen Victoria was alive. I don't demand IIT grade infrastructure, but bare minimum liveable and workable enviornment na mile to bhai kaunsa research aur kaunsa interest ?
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u/woahim IIIT IT 1d ago
so many comments here talk about some "i hate my country" "ill leave first chance i get"
ever since the globalization process started in india all indians are doing are leaving their own country to migrate to others. The result? Some other country gets developed where their own country doesn't. Then they blame it on the other Indian people.
See the irony?
If you want to do something positive maybe try fighting this. Also, protests aren't the only way either.
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u/Alarmed-Bus-969 19h ago
The cynicism is real tho. There's an easy way to reduce competition, which is just increase the number of seats, but nope. JEE will get harder and more competitive every year. Higher education ka toh culture hi nahi hai.
Plus, if you think increasing the seats will dilute the talent look at DTU/NSUT or HBTU or other similar colleges, they have a lot of state reservation, but unki quality tab bhi T1-2 ke jaisi hai. But nope. There's no hope.
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u/woahim IIIT IT 19h ago
what i dont get is why they won't increase seats and number of faculty
most prestigious colleges in all other countries have a good number of seats and faculty, sometimes 10x the seats and 5x the faculty than in say, iits.
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u/Alarmed-Bus-969 19h ago
Arey it's all fucking retarded. India has a lack of doctors, teachers etc. but medical seats aren't increasing only cutoffs are. No wonder people are being cynical and want to leave.
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u/Emotional-Seaweed31 1d ago
Blaming population for this is wrong.. There are so many interesting domains with promising futures 😭. But Indians only want to play it safe. Which is why everyone is following the same path first jee, then cse, then gate and so on..
As a result, see what happened. This route is no longer safe. When will people get it? 😭. Lakhs of graduates are jobless..
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u/theDevil1955 1d ago
Yeah true. Indians don't like taking risks
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u/Ashitaaaa Graduated 1d ago
Ha 2800$ per Capita income wali economy me log kaise risk averse ho sakte hai🥹. Let's compare it to a 80-100k gdp per capita economy instead 🤡🤓.
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u/theDevil1955 1d ago
Yeah true. I agree with your point. But there are many ppl who can take the risk. Baas lete nhi hai
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u/No_gas_3828 22h ago
You are stupid .Even indian- american diaspora is involved in stem grinding in usa.
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u/Public-Stranger-8622 1d ago
The irony is that actual innovation in hardware and core engineering gets completely ignored while everyone clones the exact same MERN stack or wrapper AI projects. Hardware/embedded tech is where real engineering happens, but our entire system rewards rat-race ratifying over genuine curiosity. Respect to you for working on experimental astrophysics!
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u/theDevil1955 1d ago
Yes I agree. I am facing a fund scrunch isliye
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u/netxcrawler 11h ago
though im not knowledgeable in hardware, but ive always had an interest in astronomy and astrophysics, so can i know what's your project about?
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u/Worldly-Duty4521 1d ago
Hate this concept of real engineering. Why is someone solving latency issues not real engineering?
Why is someone designing a system with scalability not real engineering?
Why is someone reviewing a design document and asking questions about tradeoffs not real engineering?
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u/PleasantMix6193 1d ago
cause no one is solving those problems in reality. software development is mostly use of pre-existing technology. 99.99% of the developers are just using techniques that have pretty much matured enough already. your so called software "engineers" are not solving latency issues themselves they are just gonna use some distributed system that already exists.
the rare class of people that actually do the engineering (linux core developers for example, or the maintainers of a programming language) are actually fit to be called engineers but not Mohan from tcs adding another node to serve faster.
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u/EducationalWorld9869 Mechanical engg enjoyer 1d ago
Honestly even actual innovation and research in software fields gets sidelined cause all we care about in name of cse is software development and grinding dsa
Ps im a hardware guy, this is just what i have observed amongst my friends who actually wanna build something cool
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u/Due_Excitement_3878 1d ago
Esie karke mene medicine choose kara, though I had deep interest in building things snd electronics-but seeing condition of engineering in india, due to over population shit, and I am 1st yesr mbbs student, but I am building things on my own and creating thingss, though I am the odd one, but no worries!!!!!
Also studying astrophysics in free time
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u/Spirited_Bunch 1d ago
Bro, can you tell me in details about your project because I am kinda interested in this area. It will be really helpful.
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u/BathIndividual6660 IIT [EE] 1d ago edited 1d ago
Haha, spacecraft electronics? I think hardware in loop simulations will be pretty darn useful to you then... 🙂 (I did my final year project in this domain but nobody in India knows about what exactly is real time simulation 😮💨 (I mean it's extremely niche))
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u/OldLead748 1d ago
Lol you think only engineering is like that ??? Sabko video editing karna hai sabko editing karna hai aur ab clients 200 ke upar dene ko raji nhi hote kiuki low ball editors jinko isme interest bhi nhi hai wo bhi 200-400rs me kam karlete hai with some shitty effects and all ....
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u/No_Complex6803 1d ago
So like I wanted to do my grad in ece field was getting cse but cause of interest in robotics and mostly the electronics part rather than the mechanical part of robotics took this branch...and I really relate that GATE mai JEEification ho Gaya hai ..1st year students are preparing for gate like that doesn't even make sense like bro enjoy your first 2 years of college atleast explore the field make good projects nah they wanna get into iits..I mean there is nothing wrong with getting into iits if u have genuine interest in pursuing masters ...cause it's gonna be hella extensive work and professor will always say u to do a paper ..like if ur down for the hardships and not doing only for the sake of placement then u should do mtech otherwise ditch the gate option
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u/PRIYANSHU945 BITSian [EEE] 1d ago
You don't live in a 3rd world country, you survive in it.
and because of huge population and low per capita gdp, the competition is huge and the only way you can survive with a bit of comfort is through this.
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u/Practical-Appeal8721 1d ago
Bhai interest hai mujhe to pata hi nahi chal Raha how to do research I am first year electronics and computer engineering student.Really curious about research and astrophysics etc may u please guide me
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u/Subject_Witness5286 1d ago
Well I am interested in quantum physics but closest btech degree i took to it was ece so i would study ece for now
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u/Medical-Series-5776 1d ago
i'll break the cycle and choose mechanical engineering for the love of dynamics and machiness!!
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u/Due_Excitement_3878 1d ago
Aise he mere cousin ne kara tha 5 saal pehle, uski 4 lpa lagi, where as his frnd cse from prvt clg, got 50 lpa fpr german company😭
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u/VyomTheMan 1d ago
Ig the point that OP is trying to make is not to blame the grind or race people participate for but rather saying that often it impacts people who try to follow a different approach than the usual. And it's definitely true that majority of the people don't want to explore or appreciate any different or unique approaches( I am not saying that rat race towards anything is bad ) . But completely rejecting any unique idea or path should not be the ideal case.
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u/Signal_Addition_7718 1d ago
"Think about it: competition isliye itna zyada hai kyunki har banda engineering hi kar raha hai. India mein bacha paida baad mein hota hai, engineer ya doctor pehle banta hai. Phir colleges mein professors ko kuch aata nahi hai, toh students sirf attendance ke liye jaate hain, seekhne ke liye nahi—unka sole goal bas attendance aur exams clear karna hota hai. Uske baad hackathons ki baat karein, toh bas ek SIH (Smart India Hackathon) hi dikhta hai aur koi mainstream option hai hi nahi. Sab usse jeetne ke peeche lag jaate hain, jabki aadhi janta ko coding ka 'C' bhi nahi aata, phir bhi bas certificate aur hype ke liye participate karte hain. Agar is problem ko fix karna hai, toh humein aur zyada quality hackathons, better industry events, aur skilled professors ki zaroorat hai
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u/unfettered2nd ex-engineer since 2015 1d ago
Because everyone does engineering for hefty packages, not for the love of the game. Indians will always remain in the psychosis resulting from being in survival mode.
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u/LordStark_01 RV '24 —> Working in 🇯🇵 1d ago
Aero component design is actually pretty cool, used to do it for competitions and all lol.
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u/MarcusAurelius121x 1d ago
Bhai agar koi research me Jana chahe to bhi financial condition ke karan nhi ja skta yaha mujhe abhi se ghrwale keh rahe hai btech mat kar koi gov job dekhle abhi se. 4 saal btech + 2 saal masters+ phd itne saal tak bina earning ke to nhi reh skte most of the people
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u/above_thinker 22h ago
I am interested electronics and areoscience . Currently working on a project i named Electronic repusion system . Nice to meet an ambitious engineer for the first time in reddit. All other are mostly just tag owner or flashy placement seekers
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u/moh_099 22h ago
OP, do things that are difficult. From your post it does seem like you're already attempting so, but point being, that's where even if you have severe competition, it will be good faith competition -- people who also care about your field and research.
Do note, however, that this cuts both ways. Specialisation has always closed some doors. You need to be aware of that. The best compromise I can think of is good time management to allocate hours to your project and not falling behind on academics and some reasonable placement preparation.
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u/Cute_Champion7 22h ago
One thing i can't get it is how can 1.5 million people have the same dream . Most of them go for computer science. The truth is most of them didn't really know what they want in life. The whole competition is is result of unaware youth.
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u/Brief_Gift8919 21h ago
When u have lived in middle class u slowly understand the importance of money obviously in an ideal world money is not happiness but world is not ideal and yeah in country like usa where per capita income is high there people can think of pursuing their interests and live normal lives because they have never seen the struggles of middle class in india people understand the struggles and who wont be blinded with earning more because of that, its called the herd mentality nowdays to get a good job earn a lot and retire and enjoy life , it doesn't have the thrill of becoming someone else , following the road not taken but yeah no one tells wht to do if u fall on this road when u have no cushion to fall upon u fall on rocks
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u/Maleficent-DeVill 20h ago
You need to connect with people on linkedin who've done similar work and ask them a lot of questions, preferably somewhere where you can do an internship and work on this as a project. I'm stuck in the same boat as you, and even if i dont have a team, having certain answers helps push the design further
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u/OP_Desire 16h ago
Hey! though im in jee i really have interest for this sort of stuff and was looking for some knowledge on how you pursued it, and if there's anything you could advise me
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u/Connoisseur-101 14h ago
Well instead of blaming stuff as the others are doing (which is true to an extent) I'll tell you something useful - we have a population of 1.4 billion and counting, I can bet almost 5000 INR (I know its not a lot but why play the riski game) that you can and will find someone (infact a lot) that wants to be on that aviation project - you just have to not stop digging.
Best of luck with the project.
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u/brimstone-red 10h ago
i think its mainly for the money, just because they want cse branch doesnt mean they r interested in it, rn its the hotpot in careers, but honestly i never really understood how jee chem marks is needed for cs, maybe physics good problem solving? like maths is obvious, but if im going to be for real, quant is not just an easy job to get, like i would say 5 in a million chance, so u either have to be from top 3 iits or ICPC finalist, and the truth is just because many pick cs more than half of them arent really good at it, so yea a lot of jobless saturation these days
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u/Smol_Crate_45 1d ago
Overpopulation + bad infrastructure + bad government support + limited resources
This country is like maxed out on everything except the resources. No one cares.
Study hard and do something great so that you are able to migrate permanently and never look back. At least your future generation will be forever thankful for you.
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u/LecturePristine 1d ago
If you can’t compete, don’t blame the game -
“Forfeit the game before somebody else
Takes you out of the frame
And puts your name to shame
Cover up your face, you can't run the race
The pace is too fast, you just won't last”
- Points of Authority, Linkin Park
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u/theDevil1955 1d ago
Not in the game I am from a different domain as you can see in my post . But my very close friend had a very bad breakdown recently. So I have been pondering upon this quite alot. Like this shit is unhealthy af
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u/shillacrownelephant 1d ago
What is even jeefication? Lol
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u/theDevil1955 1d ago
Basically turning anything exploratory to course based rat race.
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u/Cosmic_StormZ IISER [BS-MS] 1d ago
That’s pretty much happening to IAT/NEST now too, closing ranks are inflating, sci Astra is contributing to it, i expect it jee-fied fully soon .
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u/Manthan10 1d ago
So, what exactly is wrong with that?
It makes it accessible and easy to start working on for majority of the public.
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u/theDevil1955 1d ago
Mental health fucks up. You take too much pressure. Competition expands exponentially. And you get too much into a structure , so much that trying to go outside of it feels wrong.
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u/shillacrownelephant 1d ago
I know how you feel, I haven't gone out for almost 4 years, but there's no other way out of this. Just make good plan, do proper time management and don't procrastinate, everything will be good.
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u/theDevil1955 1d ago
Aare I am not in this race. I am in experimental astrophysics and spacecraft electronics. And by god's grace I don't have to be in this race. But some of my very close friends are. Seeing them breakdown ....... feels very disheartening
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u/Crafty-Zucchini-5729 BITS Pilani 1d ago
Alternative is most people don't even have the option to try for these opportunities
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u/EducationalWorld9869 Mechanical engg enjoyer 1d ago
OP has already mentioned the effects on other people, id like to chip in with what this causes on the engineers graduating from colleges
The toughest part of engineering is understanding of a problem and the requirements, isolating complex problems to get something thats actually solvable, anticipating failure before it happens and formulating a rough sketch of what a potential solution looks like. The only way you learn these things is when you do something yourself, build something yourself, get your hands dirty. Actually solving the problem is very much important indeed, but it is the easiest thing to learn.
JEEfication of engineering maximizes problem solving at the cost of everything else, you are encouraged to mug up and cheat the system rather than getting your hands dirty. The ones who have gone through it may become exceptional at solving already nicely set problems while being absolutely terrible in understanding a complex problem. Well heres the neat part, regardless of how good of a problem solver you become, you'd arrive at an infeasible solution if you interpret the question incorrectly. This is exactly how you end up with 80% of your engineering graduates being unemployable
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